Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Land of the Madmen and The Black Tower


Recommended Posts

In an expansion of my thoughts on Demandred's activities in LoC (which can be seen in the "Where's Waldo...I mean Demandred" thread in the Structured Forum), I have a theory on how the Land of the Mad Men, which has been mentioned outside the books by RJ, may have actually had some play in the books too, and perhaps this could be Demandred's role in LoC (since I feel confident he must have done something during LoC, if off-screen) and could also ratify the "things to the south had Demandred written on them" line.

 

Ok, so when Rand first goes to "the farm" to visit Taim, Taim has gathered a few dozen possible candidates and is training them. A few chapters (about 300 pages) later, Rand returns to "The Black Tower", and Taim has at least 100 men there with most being possible channelers. Then a couple hundred pages later (perhaps weeks? in the story), Taim shows up at Dumai's Wells with 200 or more Asha'man, doubling from just about 2 weeks prior.

 

Where did all these male channelers come from?

 

My theory: the Land of the Mad Men. It's never mentioned in the books, but RJ has mentioned it, and I'm thinking that at least through LoC and before Moridin shows up, Demandred was pulling strings on the BT and especially Taim, so Demandred probably guided Taim to the LotM or searched himself and brought recruits from there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything only mentioned in outside sources is probably not going to be a major player at this point. Do you really think the non-fanatic readers are going to accept 'The Shadow has thousands of channellers because they came from a place you have never heard of but conveniently is just jam packed with thousands of insane channellers' isn't a deus ex machina? If it was going to be important, RJ would of brought it up a few times by browns wandering the WT and chatting about it, just so it doesn't sound so implausible to people who don't read everything outside the main texts.

 

Not saying it is wrong, just from a literary perspective it is a dumb move to introduce it this late in the game when everything else is foreshadowed so much.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a possibility, nothing to say it didn't happen. They were taught Gateways, soi they could have gone to Seanchan if they felt like it.

 

However, the numbers are not suprising. Yes, channelling is rare, however when there number of known male channellers are in the single digits, it becomes much easier to find those that have the ability.

 

With female channellers, it is much rarer to randomly find new people, because a huge portion are already Aes Sedai or windfinder/Wise One.

 

With men, as we see in Damer and Alagrin, there are 3 generations of potential learners left undiscovered. (edit: well, considering the life expectancy, more like 2 generations with a few older ones.)

 

We see the numbers that Egwene pulls in when she sets up a campaign to find any female channelers, the number of males would be higher.

 

Not to mention the effects of Ta'veren and the pattern preparing for the Last Battle, new talents are discovered, old ones re-discovered. Along with Gateways and the ability to sense both sparkers and learners, plus the possibility of a little help from the Shadow (in the mainland, not LoM) I think the numbers are consistent with the story. I don't think there is anything suspicious about it.

 

But again, it is still a possibility, Taim is obviously up to something and he has been recruiting strange people recently, so it is a valid theory, still, Benevolent makes a good point, I doubt the LoM would be involved like that, since only the more dedicated fans would even know about it, it hasn't even been mentioned in the main series.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
Link to post
Share on other sites

On the same note, though... the Amayar were only mentioned in the White Book before RJ decided that they all (or at least the ones on a specific island) committed suicide when the male Chodean Kal melted. So it's not entirely unreasonable the Isle of Mad Men could come into play at some point close to the Final Battle.

 

Still, the impression I got of the IoMM folk from the little given in the White Book was that they're pretty much scattered tribes living in a geologically unstable wasteland, and probably not even near literate or able to cope with the present state of the world. Hell, they might not even speak a language Randlanders can comprehend. Maybe a bunch of IoMM channelers will be dumped through a gateway to pad out Shadow forces at the last minute, but they probably won't have much more effect than adding a little chaos to the mix. Of course, the DO loves himself some chaos...

Link to post
Share on other sites

We actually know about the Chodean Kal on Treamalking, and of Treamalking itself from the early books, if not the exact nature of the Amayar themselves, it was set up from the get go.

 

We literally have no mention or even hint that the LoM even exists in the text at all. If you haven't read the BWB, the LoM basically doesn't exist.

 

Again, I am not saying this totally rules it out, it is just that RJ doesn't usually introduce totally new things, there are always hints and foreshadowings for the big events.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I always looked at the Land of Mad Men as a chaos land. I have a feeling that the Wilders there would make the Red Ajah look like Tinkers. So chances of a male channeler living more than a week or so slim. Now if you are going there to look for female channelers, you might find a few that are strong. But they will all be crazy on a level not talked about in the books yet.

 

Didn't the source for the Land of Made Men describe it as a wild land of active volcanoes and low resources. So Neanderthals with Wilders?

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Didn't the source for the Land of Made Men describe it as a wild land of active volcanoes and low resources. So Neanderthals with Wilders?

 

Pretty much, i'll quote the relevant passages directly from the BWB since it is relevant to the topic.

 

Many active volcanoes are located along the coastline...Earthquakes and large storms are common in these seas, and icebergs are a constant danger to any ships that travel far south...

 

The natives apparently never recovered from the Breaking, and never managed to re-establish order of any kind. The people are reported to live in wretched hovels in small, primitive villages. Any foreigner runs the risk of encountering channelers of either sex. The male channelers are frequently insane, of course, due to the taint, but the women are just as dangerous and unpredictable. If the stranger meets no channelers, he is simply overwhelmed by a mob of villagers who attempt to kill on sight anyone unknown to them. There seems to be no possibility of peaceful contact.

 

To be fair though, even if they always go insane, they would live a fairly long time. The men in the mainlands are captured or gentled before insanity, othewise they go insane and get themselves killed by Aes Sedai or various soldiers. The LoM men would have free reign. Insanity does not mean death, and the wasting process takes a fairly long time to kill them. We have several examples of men holding off madness for years. It would be another few years before they acutally died of the wasting sickness. Also we know that the Shadow can provide protection from the Taint, and Ishamael at least can use the True Power to heal madness. So it is possible that there could be a recruitment process of some sort. I doubt that the hostility would be a problem for them. The problem would most likely be communication, getting them to understand what they are wanted for and such, but over time, that could be fixed.

 

Just if anyone's interesting, and I know you all are, I think that the reason the LoM never recovered (apparently anyway) from the Breaking was because it was a territory heavily controlled by the Shadow. One that had been actually supporting the Shadow, not just occupied. So a generation of Mesaana's children, heavily oppressed darkfriends will a heap of Shadowspawn.

 

So when the DO was imprisoned, Shadowspawn would have been uncontrolled and the central admin cut off. It would explain the lack of progress and the inherent hostility towards anyone. Not suggesting that they are Darkfriends NOW, but the history of LoM would be dark, and violence ingrained into society out of fear of the brutal methods of the Shadow.

 

Thus, if the LoM or its affiliates will make an appearance (I don't think they will) it is most likely the Red-Veils. Sharp teeth is often synonymous with cannibalism, and the particular joy for cruelty would fit with the impression of the LoM. They seem to like attacking people for no real reason. (and of course the history with the Shadow, if I am correct)

 

(however, I think the red-veils are Aiel captured in the Blight, but that is another story)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Anything only mentioned in outside sources is probably not going to be a major player at this point. Do you really think the non-fanatic readers are going to accept 'The Shadow has thousands of channellers because they came from a place you have never heard of but conveniently is just jam packed with thousands of insane channellers' isn't a deus ex machina? If it was going to be important, RJ would of brought it up a few times by browns wandering the WT and chatting about it, just so it doesn't sound so implausible to people who don't read everything outside the main texts.

 

Not saying it is wrong, just from a literary perspective it is a dumb move to introduce it this late in the game when everything else is foreshadowed so much.

 

Hey, hard-core fanatics accept that red veiled aiel are channelers. (Which I still say is absurd).

 

That being said, wasn't the Wells scene Months later?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Too bad RJ himself said we wouldn't go there. So, either Demandred is one of the things that will be kept secret, or he is not in the land of madmen. My "guess" is the second.

 

As to where Demandred is: Roedran, king of Murandy, seems the best possibility.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Didn't the source for the Land of Made Men describe it as a wild land of active volcanoes and low resources. So Neanderthals with Wilders?

 

Pretty much, i'll quote the relevant passages directly from the BWB since it is relevant to the topic.

 

Many active volcanoes are located along the coastline...Earthquakes and large storms are common in these seas, and icebergs are a constant danger to any ships that travel far south...

 

The natives apparently never recovered from the Breaking, and never managed to re-establish order of any kind. The people are reported to live in wretched hovels in small, primitive villages. Any foreigner runs the risk of encountering channelers of either sex. The male channelers are frequently insane, of course, due to the taint, but the women are just as dangerous and unpredictable. If the stranger meets no channelers, he is simply overwhelmed by a mob of villagers who attempt to kill on sight anyone unknown to them. There seems to be no possibility of peaceful contact.

 

To be fair though, even if they always go insane, they would live a fairly long time. The men in the mainlands are captured or gentled before insanity, othewise they go insane and get themselves killed by Aes Sedai or various soldiers. The LoM men would have free reign. Insanity does not mean death, and the wasting process takes a fairly long time to kill them. We have several examples of men holding off madness for years. It would be another few years before they acutally died of the wasting sickness. Also we know that the Shadow can provide protection from the Taint, and Ishamael at least can use the True Power to heal madness. So it is possible that there could be a recruitment process of some sort. I doubt that the hostility would be a problem for them. The problem would most likely be communication, getting them to understand what they are wanted for and such, but over time, that could be fixed.

 

Just if anyone's interesting, and I know you all are, I think that the reason the LoM never recovered (apparently anyway) from the Breaking was because it was a territory heavily controlled by the Shadow. One that had been actually supporting the Shadow, not just occupied. So a generation of Mesaana's children, heavily oppressed darkfriends will a heap of Shadowspawn.

 

So when the DO was imprisoned, Shadowspawn would have been uncontrolled and the central admin cut off. It would explain the lack of progress and the inherent hostility towards anyone. Not suggesting that they are Darkfriends NOW, but the history of LoM would be dark, and violence ingrained into society out of fear of the brutal methods of the Shadow.

 

Thus, if the LoM or its affiliates will make an appearance (I don't think they will) it is most likely the Red-Veils. Sharp teeth is often synonymous with cannibalism, and the particular joy for cruelty would fit with the impression of the LoM. They seem to like attacking people for no real reason. (and of course the history with the Shadow, if I am correct)

 

(however, I think the red-veils are Aiel captured in the Blight, but that is another story)

 

Where did you get that bolded part?

Link to post
Share on other sites

This was on the tour for "Winter's Heart":

 

http://www.wotdb.com/interviews/question/462

 

 

The Land of Madmen is mentioned in the coffee table book. Do you have any plans on incorporating it into one of the next books?

Read and find out! There are some things I might do that might take place there, but those things could also just as well be done in other places.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, he never said we wouldn't go to the LoM.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

MATTHÍAS PÁLI (8 NOVEMBER 2010)

Will we see more from Shara or the Land of the Madmen?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (8 NOVEMBER 2010)

RJ said there would be no major action in Shara. He was uncertain on Madmen.

 

Besides, it doesn't matter to the theory, as it would presumably be mentioned in the Black Tower, not all the way in the LoM. Added to the fact that he said "no major action" which doesn't rule out the possibility of a chapter or two.

 

@Vardarmus - He said non-hardcore fans. Not hardcore fans. Hardcore fans can and will believe anything :tongue:, those who are not HCFF will not even know about LoM, although the example you give is a bad one, since it is entirely different, but that is for a different topic.

 

edit: as for the bolded part, that is just my speculation, no actual evidence, just seems possible given what we know of the place. Whole territories supported the Shadow, not like the 3rd age where Darkfriends are rare and hated. Plus the fact that any Light sided place would try and rebuild, and the Aes Sedai would work together to calm things down. Such a large piece of land would have to include some Aes Sedai if it were Light-affiliated. Shadow affiliated channelers however, would be less helpful, not to mention all of the rest of the traits of the Shadow.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
Link to post
Share on other sites

Edit: It still doesn't confirm or deny the theory.

 

It does mean that LoM doesn't have something specifically important to do, because, as the quote says, it can be done elsewhere, but it does not say anything about LoM involvement overall, there are several options.

 

1. LoM people on the mainland. As suggested by this theory, some natives may be in the BT. Thus, it wouldn't be happening in the LoM, but Andor.

2. There is a vist to LoM randomly, like Forsaken Travelling there to get away, or a random cut scene to show that the whole world is affected by the DO.

3. Plans regarding the LoM are revealed, but happen on the mainland, like an invasion force or something.

4. RJ/Brandon decided that they would put something on the LoM, just for the fun of it, or mystery, or something.

 

I am not saying any of this is likely, in fact I agree with you, LoM will most likely not even be involved in any real way, however, the possibility is still open, and the quotes don't make a difference one way or the other.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, he never said we wouldn't go to the LoM.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

MATTHÍAS PÁLI (8 NOVEMBER 2010)

Will we see more from Shara or the Land of the Madmen?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (8 NOVEMBER 2010)

RJ said there would be no major action in Shara. He was uncertain on Madmen.

 

Besides, it doesn't matter to the theory, as it would presumably be mentioned in the Black Tower, not all the way in the LoM. Added to the fact that he said "no major action" which doesn't rule out the possibility of a chapter or two.

 

@Vardarmus - He said non-hardcore fans. Not hardcore fans. Hardcore fans can and will believe anything :tongue:, those who are not HCFF will not even know about LoM, although the example you give is a bad one, since it is entirely different, but that is for a different topic.

 

edit: as for the bolded part, that is just my speculation, no actual evidence, just seems possible given what we know of the place. Whole territories supported the Shadow, not like the 3rd age where Darkfriends are rare and hated. Plus the fact that any Light sided place would try and rebuild, and the Aes Sedai would work together to calm things down. Such a large piece of land would have to include some Aes Sedai if it were Light-affiliated. Shadow affiliated channelers however, would be less helpful, not to mention all of the rest of the traits of the Shadow.

 

That's not entirely different, it's my whole, The Shadow had an army of channelers and never used them before now argument. It's idiotic and a horrible plot twist!

 

Actually the LOM giving up an army of channelers actually makes more sense since you would be forced to communicate with them, and develop a steady relantionship and such. You can just collect the Aiel as they come along, turn them, and make them wait. So the Army would be pre-prepared.

Edited by Vardarmus
Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, he never said we wouldn't go to the LoM.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

MATTHÍAS PÁLI (8 NOVEMBER 2010)

Will we see more from Shara or the Land of the Madmen?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (8 NOVEMBER 2010)

RJ said there would be no major action in Shara. He was uncertain on Madmen.

 

Besides, it doesn't matter to the theory, as it would presumably be mentioned in the Black Tower, not all the way in the LoM. Added to the fact that he said "no major action" which doesn't rule out the possibility of a chapter or two.

 

@Vardarmus - He said non-hardcore fans. Not hardcore fans. Hardcore fans can and will believe anything :tongue:, those who are not HCFF will not even know about LoM, although the example you give is a bad one, since it is entirely different, but that is for a different topic.

 

edit: as for the bolded part, that is just my speculation, no actual evidence, just seems possible given what we know of the place. Whole territories supported the Shadow, not like the 3rd age where Darkfriends are rare and hated. Plus the fact that any Light sided place would try and rebuild, and the Aes Sedai would work together to calm things down. Such a large piece of land would have to include some Aes Sedai if it were Light-affiliated. Shadow affiliated channelers however, would be less helpful, not to mention all of the rest of the traits of the Shadow.

 

That's not entirely different, it's my whole, The Shadow had an army of channelers and never used them before now argument. It's idiotic and a horrible plot twist!

 

Actually the LOM giving up an army of channelers actually makes more sense since you would be forced to communicate with them, and develop a steady relantionship and such. You can just collect the Aiel as they come along, turn them, and make them wait. So the Army would be pre-prepared.

 

I always assumed most of the shadows channelers come from the "blank in the blight". We have already seen Moridins fortress with guards and my guess there is a city up there. Not sure why you would guess Aiel could not be turned, trained and living there starting their own society.

Edited by Suttree
Link to post
Share on other sites

\

 

That's not entirely different, it's my whole, The Shadow had an army of channelers and never used them before now argument. It's idiotic and a horrible plot twist!

 

Actually the LOM giving up an army of channelers actually makes more sense since you would be forced to communicate with them, and develop a steady relantionship and such. You can just collect the Aiel as they come along, turn them, and make them wait. So the Army would be pre-prepared.

 

 

We haven't had one reference to the LoM in the books.

 

Male Aiel channelers have had an abundance of foreshadowing. From the first book when an Aiel maiden dies halfway through a message about the Shadow coming back from the Blight. Then we have male channelers said to go to the Blight to kill the Dark One, and to tie in with the first clue, mention of maidens who go to the Blight to gain honour (tSR-LoC). The story of Isam being raised in the Blight, Dark One corrupting him unnaturally.

We have some "Blank" in the Blight that is supposed to be all exciting. Random male channelers fighting for the Shadow at Maradon and v Perrin. Guys turn up with Aiel-veils but red, creepy guys with sharp teeth and like killing things.

 

That is just on the surface, just a quick compilation of possible hints, since it is getting off topic. I mean, nobody is saying it is an obvious one, nor do I expect everyone to up and agree, but I don't know how it can be compared to LoM, and being less likely. It is all there, hardly a wild twist out of the blue.

 

 

Edit: I suppose I should add that collecting up Aiel channelers and turning them is not exactly the theory, it involves interbreeding and creating a mock society over the years, not just 13x13 and putting them in kennels until the LB. However, not the topic to go into discussion, there are threads that deal with it.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, he never said we wouldn't go to the LoM.

 

INTERVIEW: 2010

Twitter 2009-2010 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

MATTHÍAS PÁLI (8 NOVEMBER 2010)

Will we see more from Shara or the Land of the Madmen?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (8 NOVEMBER 2010)

RJ said there would be no major action in Shara. He was uncertain on Madmen.

 

Besides, it doesn't matter to the theory, as it would presumably be mentioned in the Black Tower, not all the way in the LoM. Added to the fact that he said "no major action" which doesn't rule out the possibility of a chapter or two.

 

@Vardarmus - He said non-hardcore fans. Not hardcore fans. Hardcore fans can and will believe anything :tongue:, those who are not HCFF will not even know about LoM, although the example you give is a bad one, since it is entirely different, but that is for a different topic.

 

edit: as for the bolded part, that is just my speculation, no actual evidence, just seems possible given what we know of the place. Whole territories supported the Shadow, not like the 3rd age where Darkfriends are rare and hated. Plus the fact that any Light sided place would try and rebuild, and the Aes Sedai would work together to calm things down. Such a large piece of land would have to include some Aes Sedai if it were Light-affiliated. Shadow affiliated channelers however, would be less helpful, not to mention all of the rest of the traits of the Shadow.

 

That's not entirely different, it's my whole, The Shadow had an army of channelers and never used them before now argument. It's idiotic and a horrible plot twist!

 

Actually the LOM giving up an army of channelers actually makes more sense since you would be forced to communicate with them, and develop a steady relantionship and such. You can just collect the Aiel as they come along, turn them, and make them wait. So the Army would be pre-prepared.

 

I always assumed most of the shadows channelers come from the "blank in the blight". We have already seen Moridins fortress with guards and my guess there is a city up there. Not sure why you would guess Aiel could not be turned, trained and living there starting their own society.

 

It's not that they couldn't be turned, or that it isn't possible, I just don't get why you wouldn't launch an all out assault with your forces as soon as the forsaken break free. At that point, with the Shadowspawn, and an Army of Aiel channelers (not counting breeding them and having women and men channelers) what force on Randland could stop you? Hell, the Seanchan would be hard pressed to stop that, especially given how they feel about shadowspawn and treat them as myths.

 

I know, bad for the book/story/etc. I'm just saying I'd be dissapointed if they turn out to be channelers.

 

What's the "Blank in the Blight"

 

I always assumed the channelers we see off screen, (Against Perrin and the Borderlands) were just Darkfriends who can channel. I mean with so many darkfriends, odds are some of them can channel. No need for a bank of channelers to get that.

Edited by Vardarmus
Link to post
Share on other sites

As to where Demandred is: Roedran, king of Murandy, seems the best possibility.

And the lamest.

 

...and it also doesn't explain why he did something in LoC that warranted the DO to laugh when Demandred inquires if he has done well on his visit to Shayol Ghul at the end of LoC.

 

Laughing because Demandred has established himself as Roedran, king of Murandy? I think not.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What's the "Blank in the Blight"

 

A story we got a while back concerning something RJ had to say before he passed away...

 

Q: This question has to do with a conversation I had with Wilson.

Brandon: Oh okay, is this going to be? Okay, I think I know what this is going to be.

Q: At last JordanCon I was talking with Wilson, and he was telling me about the night that Robert Jordan told him the end of the book.

Brandon: Uh huh.

Q: And he says that it started off with the word... they were talking about whatever, and it started off with Robert Jordan getting really quiet and then leaning in and saying, "There is a _____ in the Blight." To which that completely blindsides Wilson. He says, "There’s a what?!?" And Robert Jordan then says, "There's a _____ in the Blight and not even Harriet knows about it." And then went on for two hours describing about how this was important and pivotal and yet takes place... be really important for the end of the book. Any further hints?

Brandon: And see, Wilson can get away with stuff that I can't. And that is a story I've been told by three different people now. In fact, the first day I was there in Charleston, Harriet told it to me. Then Maria told it to me. And then I met Wilson later and he told it to me. Because that was the day when they suddenly said, "We need a tape recorder. Someone get a tape recorder." And I think Maria, like, went to the store to get one and came back with... But then, that was the session where he started for the first time dictating what was to happen and things like this. I do know that story. It's great for you to share it with everyone. I would not have shared that story because I have to be extra careful not to cross any lines. And so…you will get hints about whatever that was in the next book [Towers of Midnight].

 

http://www.dragonmou...-in-the-blight/

Edited by Suttree
Link to post
Share on other sites

So the hints are Moridin's castle and the veiled people I guess?

 

Yes I would says so. That is the most likely explanation and more reason why the LoM will not play a role.

Edited by Suttree
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...