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The Reason the DO Never Had Rand Killed

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It was a long hard winter but it was definitely headed towards spring when Moiraine showed up. The seasons didn't get stuck in place until later in the series when the DO locks summer into place with an unnatural heat. The seals must've already been weakening though, I think it is more of a link with Rand's soul than his ability to channel. Rand channeling would just make the DO smile knowing that the Dragon was losing his freaking mind

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Probably because it would have really messy side effects. I mean if the Horn of Valere being used against the Dragon can cause a rift in the Pattern, what would be the result of the premature death of the Dragon? An even bigger rift? What would the Pattern do to make up for the death of the Dragon? Might the Creator himself interfere?

I can see two possibilities, either the death of the Dragon might have extremely bad consequences for the DO or he's scared because he does not know the consequences.

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Winter was already stuck in place when Rand was leaving the Two Rivers. Unless you speculate that he had channelled before Moiraine arrived the seals were weakening before that. They could of started weakening when he was born though.

 

What makes you say Winter was already stuck in place?

 

Didn't they note the long winter. Ny commented on it, the people in Barelon commented on it. In fact one Ny quote said something to the effect of the fields should be in bloom already, but they weren't.

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Probably because it would have really messy side effects. I mean if the Horn of Valere being used against the Dragon can cause a rift in the Pattern, what would be the result of the premature death of the Dragon? An even bigger rift? What would the Pattern do to make up for the death of the Dragon? Might the Creator himself interfere?

I can see two possibilities, either the death of the Dragon might have extremely bad consequences for the DO or he's scared because he does not know the consequences.

 

Going by what Sanderson said in the following interview If Rand died someone else would probably have taken over as Marshall of the Forces of Light:

Interview: Nov 22nd' date=' 2011[/b']

 

Alloy of Law Signing Report - Zombie Sammael (Paraphrased)

Zombie Sammael

 

In The Gathering Storm Graendal thinks that Demandred had a shot at being the Dragon. What we were wondering was whether this refers to the soul itself or to the title Dragon, and if the title is tied to the soul.

Brandon Sanderson

 

 

Brandon then said (quite excitingly IMO) that it actually went further than that, and if perhaps Rand had died whether someone else would have taken over that role.

ZOMBIE SAMMAEL

 

If that had happened, would that person be called Dragon?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

I'll give you this: there was no chance of Demandred ever being Dragon.

ZOMBIE SAMMAEL

 

Ah, that's a bit similar to the answer you gave before. But if not Demandred, somebody else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Maybe.

 

 

Further, several of the portal stone lives showed us the consequences of there not being a Dragon. Lots of false Dragons until the Shadow comes forth and scours the world.

 

Considering how often the Shadow seemed to succeed at that scouring it seems like the forces of light are weaker without Rand even if someone else steps up to lead(the Seanchan were holding in at least one mirrorworld so presumably the DotNM was the Dragon equivalent there), so we still have the question of why keep Rand alive if the light would be weaker without him?

 

I think Ishy's reflections on games of Sha'rah make it clear the Shadow needs to turn the Fisher to win an ultimate victory, and even then to use him in a certain way.

 

As Jordan said(thank you Theoryland)

Robert Jordan

 

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free' date=' but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.[/quote']

 

Robert Jordan

 

Yes' date=' the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.[/quote']

 

Now, from TPoD

“The Fisher held his attention, baiting him. Several pieces had varying moves, but only the Fisher's attributes altered according to where it stood; on a white square, weak in attack yet agile and far-ranging in escape; on black, strong in attack but slow and vulnerable. When masters played, the Fisher changed sides many times before the end. The green-and-red goal-row that surrounded the playing surface could be threatened by any piece, but only the Fisher could move onto it. Not that he was safe, even there; the Fisher was never safe. When the Fisher was yours, you tried to move him to a square of your color behind your opponent's end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way, but not the only one. When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not. Of course, there was a third path to victory in sha'rah, if you took it before letting yourself get trapped. The game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete annihilation of your enemy. He had tried that once, in desperation, but the attempt had failed. Painfully.”, tPoD Prologue(Page 35)

Obviously Shayol Ghul would be the DO's goal line. What would be the light's? I'm thinking Dragonmount.

 

The DO's plan for the whole book was the drive Rand so mad that he chooses to destroy the world.

 

Now there is another possibility as well. If Rand was alive and Dark the land would be weakened by his darkness, crippling the forces of light in their attempt to resist the DO.

 

So the DO needed Rand alive to win the ultimate victory, and to weaken the forces of light making a draw easier to achieve. If Rand died someone else would just rise up as leader and possibly defeat the forces of the Shadow.

Edited by Zorlon

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Winter was already stuck in place when Rand was leaving the Two Rivers. Unless you speculate that he had channelled before Moiraine arrived the seals were weakening before that. They could of started weakening when he was born though.

 

What makes you say Winter was already stuck in place?

 

Didn't they note the long winter. Ny commented on it, the people in Barelon commented on it. In fact one Ny quote said something to the effect of the fields should be in bloom already, but they weren't.

 

Yes it was a long winter but it transitioned into summer which is where the DO stopped things.

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Not even the Chosen know for sure how the GLoD thinks or what His exact motives are.

But we can infer that He needs Rand for some reason, and He needs Rand to oppose him .

Think about it:

The GLoD has been chipping quietly away at the Seals for 3K years.

He's got to the point where they're seriously weakened and his Chosen can escape the Bore.

The D has been reborn.

The GLoD specifically tells his boys and girls to go out and raise a tempest to use a Brandonism

Why not just instruct them to keep their collective heads down and wait for the DR to die a natural/ insane death while he keeps chipping quietly away?

So what if it takes another 3Kyears? The GLoD has no problems with waiting.

Presumably the DR can do something that either seriously accelerates the process or he really needs Rand to bust the Seals. ( Edit: I mean to bust out of the Bore / his prison outside time, maybe just breaking the Seals isn't enough)

If it was just a special method of channeling some specific weave, that too would be no big deal -the GLoD commands at least 13 very strong channelers and another 200-odd Black channelers of varying strength.

So it's something only the DR "who is one with the land" or whatever, can do, and he needs the DR all riled up to use another favourite Brandonism.

Edited by Sharaman

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Winter was already stuck in place when Rand was leaving the Two Rivers. Unless you speculate that he had channelled before Moiraine arrived the seals were weakening before that. They could of started weakening when he was born though.

 

What makes you say Winter was already stuck in place?

 

Didn't they note the long winter. Ny commented on it, the people in Barelon commented on it. In fact one Ny quote said something to the effect of the fields should be in bloom already, but they weren't.

 

Yes it was a long winter but it transitioned into summer which is where the DO stopped things.

 

Well yea, but the winter broke after the Eye of the World. So the super-kids managed to break the DO's hold briefly, and he couldn't grab back on right away. Keeping the world in spring blows, so he froze it again during the summer.

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Not even the Chosen know for sure how the GLoD thinks or what His exact motives are.

But we can infer that He needs Rand for some reason, and He needs Rand to oppose him .

Think about it:

The GLoD has been chipping quietly away at the Seals for 3K years.

He's got to the point where they're seriously weakened and his Chosen can escape the Bore.

The D has been reborn.

The GLoD specifically tells his boys and girls to go out and raise a tempest to use a Brandonism

Why not just instruct them to keep their collective heads down and wait for the DR to die a natural/ insane death while he keeps chipping quietly away?

So what if it takes another 3Kyears? The GLoD has no problems with waiting.

Presumably the DR can do something that either seriously accelerates the process or he really needs Rand to bust the Seals.

If it was just a special method of channeling some specific weave, that too would be no big deal -the GLoD commands at least 13 very strong channelers and another 200-odd Black channelers of varying strength.

So it's something only the DR "who is one with the land" or whatever, can do, and he needs the DR all riled up to use another favourite Brandonism.

 

 

The seals can be broken by anything right now. It's not about that, although the DO doesn't have the seals, so that sucks. Nor does he know where they are. He was looking for them for a while though. Recall the Shadowspawn chasing Bayle?

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Not even the Chosen know for sure how the GLoD thinks or what His exact motives are.

But we can infer that He needs Rand for some reason, and He needs Rand to oppose him .

Think about it:

The GLoD has been chipping quietly away at the Seals for 3K years.

He's got to the point where they're seriously weakened and his Chosen can escape the Bore.

The D has been reborn.

The GLoD specifically tells his boys and girls to go out and raise a tempest to use a Brandonism

Why not just instruct them to keep their collective heads down and wait for the DR to die a natural/ insane death while he keeps chipping quietly away?

So what if it takes another 3Kyears? The GLoD has no problems with waiting.

Presumably the DR can do something that either seriously accelerates the process or he really needs Rand to bust the Seals.

If it was just a special method of channeling some specific weave, that too would be no big deal -the GLoD commands at least 13 very strong channelers and another 200-odd Black channelers of varying strength.

So it's something only the DR "who is one with the land" or whatever, can do, and he needs the DR all riled up to use another favourite Brandonism.

I think what it comes down to is the Dragon is necessary for the DO to win the ultimate victory

 

Robert Jordan said:

Yes' date=' the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.[/quote']

 

Robert Jordan said:

There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free' date=' but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.[/quote']

We have seen from the mirror worlds that even if Rand died, or never became the Champion of Light, the Shadow would still attack in the near future.

 

If getting free is ultimate victory then perhaps for some reason it's only The Dragon who could free the DO.

 

Even if the seals were broken there would only be the Bore. Perhaps it can only be widened so far without the Dragon's help.

 

With the dragon dead the best the DO can hope for is a minor victory. Perhaps, at best, dominating the next age

Edited by Zorlon

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Winter was already stuck in place when Rand was leaving the Two Rivers. Unless you speculate that he had channelled before Moiraine arrived the seals were weakening before that. They could of started weakening when he was born though.

 

What makes you say Winter was already stuck in place?

 

Didn't they note the long winter. Ny commented on it, the people in Barelon commented on it. In fact one Ny quote said something to the effect of the fields should be in bloom already, but they weren't.

 

Yes it was a long winter but it transitioned into summer which is where the DO stopped things.

 

Well yea, but the winter broke after the Eye of the World. So the super-kids managed to break the DO's hold briefly, and he couldn't grab back on right away. Keeping the world in spring blows, so he froze it again during the summer.

 

Shrug. The seasons match up on the timeline and I just don't see any proof that is the case. I know what you are putting fourth has never been a prevailing sentiment within the fandom and there are no author comments in relation to it. Everything relating to the DO's hold had to do with the unnatural summer.

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Everyone in EotW commented on the long, hard winter. Spring came sudden and hard when they fought at the EotW just like winter came after the long summer. It took the DO another year to gather his strength and hold summer in place and that one stayed like it for much longer so it was clearly the DO work.

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I do understand that the blight receded some, that seemed to be in direct relation to their actions...

Edited by Suttree

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