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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Which Forsaken Has Done The Most Evil?


  

50 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Forsaken has committed the most heinous acts?

    • Aginor
    • Asmodean
    • Balthamel
      0
    • Be'lal
      0
    • Demandred
      0
    • Graendal
      0
    • Ishamael
    • Lanfear
    • Mesaana
    • Moghedian
      0
    • Rahvin
    • Sammael
      0
    • Semirhage
  2. 2. Which Forsaken is the most evil?

    • Aginor
    • Asmodean
      0
    • Balthamel
      0
    • Be'lal
      0
    • Demandred
    • Graendal
    • Ishamael
    • Lanfear
      0
    • Mesaana
    • Moghedian
      0
    • Rahvin
      0
    • Sammael
      0
    • Semirhage


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Not just in the current age, but in all the time they were active in the Age of Legends, which Forsaken did the most horrific deeds.

 

My vote goes to Aginor. I mean, he sacrified like 50 million people to make the Trollocs, and with the Trollocs, the Shadow had an army to fight for them and kill countless millions more. Aginor, the Mad Scientist, definitely gets top vote for doing the most evil act.

 

But I have to say that Semirhage seems more evil. Her descriptions of torturing people are fantastically chilling. We've seen some of that torture and heard rumors of others, far worse than what we've seen. I definitely think she is the scariest Forsaken. Her deeds are surely terrifying and terrible, but again it's hard to match slaying 50 million people to make the Trollocs.

 

 

Also, can we get a basic list of what bad deeds each Forsaken is known for. These are some I know:

 

Lanfear - used TAR to enter people's dreams and kill them. Made people afraid to sleep

 

Moghedian - funnelled information about the Light to the Shadow...not as evil as the others, but what evil deeds has she done?

 

Mesaana - established schools where children were taught the Shadow was right, and would kill lesser people

 

Graendal - used Compulsion on people to make them into witless slaves. What else has she done?

 

Balthamel - I believe he was a master spy. Also wasn't he a womanizer/rapist? What else and how much damage did his spying inflict?

 

Ishamael - not sure what particular bad thing he was best at, but he was the main baddy.

 

 

And what deeds in particular have these done: Sammael, Rahvin, Demandred, Be'lal, Asmodean.

 

I know all are said to have fed cities to Trollocs, or at least people. I believe I read somewhere that Demandred (or was it Sammael...or both) fed entire cities to the Trollocs. I think it was Demandred and because they had spited him. Also, they ocassionally all used balefire but were afraid of it.

 

So who gets your pick?

 

And can someone provide me with information on the most significant bad deeds (mostly during the AoL) of each of the Forsaken.

Edited by True Source Creator
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My vote for most heinous acts goes to Lanfear.

 

BWB

 

She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Aside from these useful pursuits, Lanfear served as a governor of conquered territory at least once. She was involved in many atrocities, perhaps more than most of the Forsaken, but the people she governed had more than the usual horrors of the Shadow to face; they feared sleep itself. Suicide rates were extremely high in her territory, even considering the fact that suicide was endemic in all the conquered territories.

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On a practical level, Aginor did the greatest evil by creating Shadowspawn. The Gholam alone would be enough, but the rest of them, the Trollocs, Drakghar, Jumara. That is some crazy stuff. Also he must have done something to their souls, since Trolloc souls are twisted and corrupt, to the point they could barely be called a soul. Not only does he create Shadowspawn, which is bad enough, but also twists (with some help from the DO of course) souls, which is a permanent thing. Sure the others killed people and fed them to Trollocs etc. but Aginor created a twisted army and permanently damaged millions of souls.

 

As to who is the most evil, I couldn't say. It depends on how you define evil.

 

Semirhage certainly is the nastiest of them, she revels in pain and torture. But does that make her truly evil? She turned to the Shadow because she didn't have a choice. To be bound and her life cut in half or stilled, which is basically a death sentence were her only other options.

 

Ishamael truly believes in the DO's plans, he really wants the DO to destroy the world, end all existance as he knows it. However, his reasons are philosophical, he wants to end the Wheel so they don't keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

 

Graendal turned to the Shadow basically out of contempt for others, who were never good enough to live up to her standards. She revels in excess and debauchery, basically destroying the minds of her "pets" and enslaves them (destroying them when they have grown old, I assume), however she doesn't engage in random and pointless acts of cruelty for cruelty's sake.

 

Lanfear is crazy, she wants power, she would betray even the DO if she could get away with it. She would use and sacrifice anything and everything for power, yet she isn't exactly evil. She wants status and recognition and will to terrible things to achieve it, but she doesn't want to destroy or kill people for fun, she rarely kills anyone unless it is necessary.

 

So yeah, all of them have dark natures, but evil is hard to define. I would go with Ishamael though, simply because he knows exactly what he is doing, and doesn't care. He wants to destroy everything, not just willing to kill to gain power.

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Ishamael is in my opinion the most evil , he is one of the most faithful to the DO will and don't spend the time plotting against other forsaken. But strives ever to the greater glory of he who must not be named. Even if i must admit that Semirhage is a truly evil being and i am unsure if it is not she who deserves the title ,even the other forsaken seem to dislike her pleasure in torture and causing other pain and that says a lot. As for the forsaken who did the cruelest deeds Semirhage tops the list , did she not submit a whole city to various forms of torture to see the effected on them ?

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Ishy most evil

 

I chose asmo as most damage (I was thinking current age) since he caused the major rift in the Aiel. Not to mention he possibly fed false information to Rand (he was still truly loyal to the DO)

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Evil acts not mentioned: IIRC Sammael betrayed the gates of Hevan (but maybe it was Demandred) which messed up the Light's defences pretty bad, Demandred of course also led Shadow armies with all the evil that entails.

 

For most evil acts? Semirhage. She broke people truly and utterly, and not by destroying their mind entire... no, she broke them bit, by bit, by bit. I imagine most of her victims saw it coming that they would, eventually, break... but could not help it. At least with Graendal we can assume the process was fairly immediate, and as we can see from Morgase, the affected don't necessarily feel the horror of what they're doing.

 

For most evil person? Ishamael, too. The rest are just out on an ego trip trying to gain power & all that, maybe being sadists... Ishamael truly and utterly believes the Shadow is right and should destroy the world. And argued it, which the people of the AoL considered a pretty darn hefty betrayal (you don't get called the betrayer of hope for nothing).

After all, the war between Shadow and Light is as much a battle between ideologies as it is a direct war. And Ishamael exemplifies the ideology of the Shadow.

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Well Asmodean thought Rand many weaves that was quintessential. Also was the trick with the Aiel only the spark that lit the terrified Aiel. When Rand told what he had been shown in Ruhidian he doomed his quest to unify the Aiel.

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Hold up, are we talking about most damaging acts or most evil?

 

Something can be damaging without being evil.

 

Demandred and Bel'al led armies against the Light, but it was just war. I mean, I am not saying it wasn't evil, leading Trollocs against humans is evil, however it isn't, in my opinion, in the same class as Semirhage, Aginor or Mesaana, who each committed noteable atrocities that were extremely evil acts. Torturing for pleasure, creating Shadowspawn and turning children into monsters for the Shadow.

 

It may not be as damaging as an army sacking a city, but it is much more evil an act, I believe.

 

Asmodean and the rift with the Aiel wasn't really evil compared to other things. It could have been done by anyone from the Light. It was just a strategy to weaken the enemy, nothing intrinsically evil.

 

Also, it might be interesting to see what people think about who is the LEAST evil of the Forsaken.

 

The obvious answer would be Asmodean, but I don't think so. Asmodean was just not into torture and such, but his actions were pretty evil, to mutilate any musician that was better than him.

 

For me, I would have to say - as you might guess heh - Demandred. Now I will say first that this is just the LEAST evil, not that the guy is good. But it has been something that has interested me about him throughout the series. We have little snippets to suggest he isn't that evil. First of all, he was a major force for the Light, until he reasoned that they were going to lose (because LTT was the leader of the Light). His hatred for LTT was, of course, another major factor. But I can understand, EVERYTHING he did was just that bit below LTT, you would get pissed. Sure, I wouldn't exactly do what he did, but at least it is a human reason. Not because of evil.

 

But yeah, heaps of hints, Mesaana wondering whether he would even have turned to the Shadow if LTT had not been born. Graendal thinking he could have been the Dragon if not for LTT. In Demandred PoV, he thinks to himself that he never enjoyed war, it was just something that he was good at, possibly better than LTT. He cares less about immortality and power than the others (which is to say, he still desires these things, just slightly less) and only cares about killing LTT, he doesn't really care about the DO etc.. besides the fact that he surmised that the DO would win eventually, and wanted to be on the winning side.

 

Having said that, no doubt the guy has done evil stuff. As mentioned, he was the one who fed a whole city to Trollocs because he thought they had slighted him before he turned. Still, overall his actions seem the most human and the least power-hungry and selfish.

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Sorry for double post, but I think this should be a separate post, feel free to delete or whatever.

 

I compiled a list of most of the Forsaken's deeds, in the AoL and 3rd Age. I may have missed something, if so, I can edit the list, but I think I got most.

 

First off, all of the Forsaken committed the "general" evils, like feeding people to Trollocs, killing people, fighting for the DO etc.. These are the unique atrocities that we know of from each of them.

 

Aginor: Scientific genius, turns to the Shadow because the Light won't let him do the tests he wants to do.

Creates Shadowspawn with help from the True Power, corrupts millions of souls in the making.

Creates zomaran (creepy lifeless guys that Ishamael uses as servants)

Tests over a hundred Myrddraal to destruction but fails to find out how they move between shadows. (I know it's Myrddraal, but still an evil thing)

Faced LTT in the Hall of Servants (no real detail on this, but could be something significant)

Tries to use the Eye, hurts Moiraine and all that, Rand kills him in the end though.

Comes back as Osan'gar, joins the Asha'man under the name Dashiva.

Attempts to kill Rand in Cairhien with the renegades.

Tries to kill Rand at the Cleansing, blown up by fellow Shadow-sworn Elza.

 

Asmodean: Betrayed the Light for Immortality to compose music forever.

"Effective Administrator" (not sure if this means just a good one, or good in an evil effective way)

Mutilated any musician he was envious of so they couldn't best him.

Gives Couldain fake Dragon Tattoo's and instigates the Shaido "rebellion" from the rest of the Aiel.

Attempts to kill Rand and get the Chodean Kal, but fails and becomes Rand's teacher.

Edit: Severed his own mother from the TS.

 

 

Balthamael: Studies primative cultures in the AoL, a gambler who cheated to impress women. Leecherous.

Turned to the Shadow (unknown circumstances apart from already being a crap guy)

Not much known about what he did until after he was reborn.

Burns the Green Man, but gets killed by him.

Reborn as Aran'gar, in a woman's body.

Infiltrates Rebel Aes Sedai as Halima, promotes chaos and such in general in an attempt to prolong the Rebellion.

Frees Mogehdien from the a'dam.

Makes Egwene's headaches bad, gives her massages to "relieve" it, blocks her Dreaming Talent. (other possible effects unknown)

Kills a few Aes Sedai (3 I think) including Anaiya to cover her tracks.

Kills Hopwil at the Cleansing.

 

Bel'al: Friends with Lews Therin, but betrays the Light (out of envy, most likely).

Leads Shadowspawn armies against the Light as a great general.

"Razes the Hall of Servants" just before the Sealing of the Bore.

Freed from prison, rules Tear as Lord Samon, promoting hatred of Illian and Tar Valon.

Sets up a trap for Rand so he can kill him and take Callandor.

 

Demandred: Betrays the Light 3 years into the War because of hatred of LTT and cold calculation that the DO would eventually win.

One of the best generals for the Shadow leading massive invasions like Bel'al.

Feeds two entire cities to Trollocs because he feels they slighted him before the war.

Current actions unknown, but his "rule is secure." and "Gathers for War"

Connections to Asha'man.

Fulfilling the DO's orders "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule"

 

Graendal: ​Famous Aesthetic turns total hedonist and one of the very first to swear to the DO.

The one who brings Sammael to Shayol Ghul for the first time (did she have a hand in turning him to the Shadow?)

Murders children after enslaving their parents in the War of Power.

In many of the Shadow's plots using her knowledge of the mind and Compulsion.

Has her "pets", usually beautiful people with high ranks and reduces them to husk-like servants with Compulsion.

After escaping prison, sets up in Arad Doman where she sows Chaos.

Murders Asmodean.

Plunges Shara into chaos by kidnapping their leaders and uses them as pets.

Aids Sammael (although plays a minor role) in using the Shaido.

Tries to bring down Rand in Arad Doman, ends up betraying and causing Balthamael's second death along with Delena.

Uses Slayer, Dreamspike and Shadowspawn to set a trap for Perrin. Fails, ends up causing Mesaana's death apparently.

 

Ishamael: Betrays the Light because he believes the fight is pointless.

One of the only Forsaken (that we know) to use the True Power with little reserve.

One of the first to declare for the Shadow, publicly announcing it in the Hall of Servants and informing them exactly what the DO was.

This sparks riots and all kinds of chaos for the Light, which earned him the name "Betrayer of Hope"

One of the Dark Ones most trusted Chosen throughout the War of Power (I assume this means he had an overall hand in tactics and such)

Only partially sealed, he heals LTT madness and taunts him, leading to LTT suicide and Dragonmount.

Suspected to have a hand in the Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing's Empire, Seanchan foundations and various wars that set back progress.

Creates Black Ajah and gives them orders over the years

Haunts Rand Mat and Perrin, tries to turn them to the Shadow.

EotW-tDR gives orders to most Darkfriends to do whatever it is they do. (point being, he is the mastermind of these evils)

Fights Rand above Falme, gives him one of his "un-healable wounds"

After dying, reborn as Moridin, less insane and has sole access to TP.

Named Nae'blis and gives orders to Forsaken.

Helps Rand out when he fights Sammael, creates some kind of connection between them.

Preparing the Shadow for the Last Battle as Nae'blis

Nearly succeeds in turning Rand to the Shadow until Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount.

 

Lanfear: Unwittingly bores a hole in the DO's prison to free him.

Betrays the Light out of greed and lust for power.

Worse than usual atrocities under her rule. Increased suicides due to her expertise in TAR giving people nightmares etc.

Frequent assassin in TAR and breaking people to turn them to the Shadow.

Follows Rand as Selene, tries to seduce him with promises of power.

Helps Asmodean with his plans, then betrays him and forces him to be Rand's teacher.

Forms a plan with Graendal Sammael and Rhavin to trap Rand.

Gets angry and kills people, injures Egwene and Aviendha, tries to kill Rand, foiled by Moiraine.

Reborn as Cyndane, mindtrapped, takes part in Cleansing assault party.

Apparently "rallying Darkfriends" (according to Graendal)

 

Mesaana: Rejected by Collam Daan, betrays the Light out of hatred and plans to "teach them all"

Sets up indoctrination schools for children promoting betrayal, even ones own family, if they went against the Shadow.

Indoctrinated children brutal and effective policing method for Shadow, murder, riots and destruction ensue.

Infiltrates White Tower and orchestrates the Split.

Orchestrates the kidnapping of Rand.

Causes Elaida to do stupid things to create chaos.

Killing Aes Sedai to bait Egwene.

Uses Black Ajah as trap for Egwene, fails and rendered mindless.

 

Mogehdien: Creates one of the best spy networks for the Shadow.

Involved in various plots to break the Light and sow Chaos.

Plots to take out Lews Therin, but Birgitte (or her soul as she was then) foils her.

Freed, starts planning various things, uses 13 Black Ajah that fled the Tower and sets them various tasks, some unknown.

Sows chaos in Tarabon, Compels Nynaeve and Elayne. Tries to kill Nynaeve, but Nynaeve wins.

Tortures Nynaeve in TAR, Birigitte helps out then Moggy rips Birgitte out of TAR (full effects are as yet unknown)

Tries to kill Nynaeve a few more times, captured and used to help defeat Rhavin.

Freed from a'dam, mindtrapped, continues to try and kill Nynaeve.

Apparently "rallying Darkfriends" like Lanfear.

 

Rhavin: Betrays Light, led some field battles, administered some territories, little specific is known. Not a very nice guy to start with, lusts for power.

Freed, sets himself up in Andor as Gaebril and uses Compulsion on Morgase to gain control of Andor.

Replaces loyal Andorians with dark sorts, gets rid of Gareth Bryne, incites hatred of Tar Valon causing conflict between Morgase and White Tower.

Plot to kill Elayne foiled by Mat.

Attacked by Rand, has Shadowspawn waiting, kills Mat, Aviendha and Asmodean, balefired so that didn't happen.

 

Sammael: Betrays Light 4 years into war out of jealousy and lust for power.

Named the Destroyer of Hope after betraying everyone at the Gates of Hevan "bringing the Shadow into Rorn M'doi and Satelle.

A general for the Shadow, many campaigns against Light.

Worse than usual conditions in his territories for average people, more died from malnutrition and such. Prisoners simply forgotton and left to starve.

Loved violence and war. (liked games like the one with people used as pieces)

Apparently when someone told Sammael that rations had to be reduced by a quarter, he told them to kill a quarter of the people to eliminate the problem. (something along those lines)

Freed, sets himself up as ruler of Illian, Lord Brend of the Council of Nine.

Builds up armies and sends various Shadowspawn attacks at Rand.

Attacks Rand at the Siege of Cairhien.

Plots with Shaido, spreads them across the land to sow Chaos.

Fights Rand's armies who invade Illian from the east.

Uses Caradin and other Darkfriends in Ebou Dar. Orders Gholam aswell (I think, it might not be certain though)

Fights with Rand in Illian and Shadar Logoth.

 

Semirhage: Before turning, experimented with people when she healed them (basically torture)

For her crimes, given the choice of being bound (on an Oath Rod, as it is known as now) or Severed. Chose option 3, the Shadow.

Shadow's most feared asset, infamous torturer who revelled in breaking a person simply to see how much pain they could stand.

High suicide rates in Semirhage's territories, nobody wanted to be given to her.

Broke many high standing people of the Light who turned to the Shadow.

Held some fields of command, competent.

Freed, assumes role as Tuon's truthspeaker.

Murders the Seanchan royal family plunging the mainland into chaos.

Tortures and murders Cabriana so Aran'gar has a good cover.

As Tuon's truthspeaker, influences her, commands Suroth to kill Tuon.

Plans to trap Rand, fails and is captured. Destroys his hand though.

Set free by Shadar Haran, places the Domination Band on Rand, plans to take him to Shayol Ghul.

Tortures Rand a little, causing him to become dark, access to True Power somehow, balefires her, but nearly turned to Shadow.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Most Horrible goes to Mesaana. Killing people is all well and good, but completely mind raping people and especially children into service to the shadow through indoctrination and the like is pretty evil. Not only does it bring up Nazi like brainwashing, but its pretty horrible to make those that are to be most protected (children) into slavering nutters to the shadow; willing to spy, kill and torture friends and family for their "cause".

 

As to the most evil... Ishamael, it takes a special kind of evil to still be a 100% follower of the Dark One once you realize there is no reward. The Dark One is going to destroy everything, and you with it, for no reason except he wants to. And you are willing to go along with this, and even become the Dark Ones best and most trusted helper. Its a special kind of crazy/evil willing to do that.

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Something that always got me with these selling your soul for power deals. You can never be the absolute power cause there is always the DO, Satan or whoever above you, while on the light side God is never around so you could be absolutely powerful if you worked hard enough at it.

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I think I will use the idea of who of them I would have liked the least to be the victim of. Then it will certainly be Semirhage. I don't know who is responsible for the most deaths, and since there's rebirth, then I'd probably not view that as the most evil thing anyone in the "Wheel of Time" can suffer. So, my vote goes to Semirhage.

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Sammael, Be'lal, and Demandred really seem quite like the same person. That being said, I like Demandred best of the three.

 

Also, as for who I think is "least evil"...Asmodean does come to mind, even if he caused chaos (in the AoL and by breaking the Aiel in the 3rd Age), he still seems less evil than most of the others. I'm hoping Lanfear is "less evil" too and is willing to come back to the Light. Sure she did evil acts, but in the 3rd Age she actually helped Rand out a lot and only turned on him after she found out he had slept with aviendha. And it's true that Demandred may not really be among the more evil simply because his actions are caused by jealousy more than evil. Possibly the same of Be'lal...maybe Sammael.

 

Basically, I would say the most evil ones: Ishamael (obvious), Semirhage (obvious), Mesaana (obvious), Aginor, Graendal (went over really early).

 

Rahvin, Moghedian, and Balthamel are more of wild-cards IMO. They're definitely evil, but they don't seem as evil as those listed above, nor perhaps as benign as some of the others I mentioned.

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Semirhage has to be the most evil one. If I remember correctly, wasn't there something in one of the books about her prisoners chewing their own wrists to commit suicide? Whatever she was doing to people that drove them to such extreme lengths must have been pure evil.

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Ishamael, Regardless of how he has helped Rand,he's still been in as he is since the first turning and knows what he's doing. It seems to me that probability points to the light winning and that his defection is a sign.

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Asmodean: Betrayed the Light for Immortality to compose music forever.

"Effective Administrator" (not sure if this means just a good one, or good in an evil effective way)

Mutilated any musician he was envious of so they couldn't best him.

Gives Couldain fake Dragon Tattoo's and instigates the Shaido "rebellion" from the rest of the Aiel.

Attempts to kill Rand and get the Chodean Kal, but fails and becomes Rand's teacher.

Did he not sever his own mother? That act made me select him for the heinous.

 

I chose Semi as most evil, whenever she's mentioned or comes on screen there is this feeling of impending doom, much less so with other Foresaken, even Moridin. A shame how easily she broke under Cads though.

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Ishamael has obviously been the most destructive, seeing as he's been behind the Trolloc Wars, the fall of Hawkwing's Empire, the birth of the Black Ajah, and the corruption of Luthair's prophecies. It's hard to rule him out as the most heinous/evil one as well, seeing as how everybody else was doing evil things for their own purposes, he was doing pretty much the same things for instrumental ends. I'd say each of the Forsaken was pretty much equally capable of heinous/evil things, Ishy's just been more effective at it because he's had so much more time.

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I am not really interested in the motivation of forsaken, I would like to reward evilest based on quantifiable successes.

I do think there is a toss up between two forsaken for MVP of evil.

because a dollar amount can be assigned to each act

 

Generaling, Administrating the dark side, killing millions. $48 Billion

Torture, Compulsion, "reeducation" $56 Billion

Undermining the light and instilling a belief in DO $63 Billion

A 3000 year tradition of servitude, connecting a Legacy from the last age. Priceless.

 

And for evilest person Ishmael wins the Gold metal, Aginor gets the Silver for Trollocs, in close second. The Bronze metal will not be awarded in this age.

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Imagine the souls before they are born: Yay I get to be in the world again. Oh crap, trollocs, I waited 2000 years for this?

 

Ahahahahaha!

 

That being said, my votes goes just like the OP, and oddly enough I voted before I Read and came up with the exact same reasonings. It's kinda hard to argue with the most evil act as Aginor. I mean, he has to be responsible for the most deaths, what forsaken pulls in numbers while they're all trapped. His creations, while in extremely recent history, have been the stuff of nightmares for how long now? Hell, the entire borderlands is just barely hanging on because of him

 

And as to the most evil, Eh Ishy may be the most, but Semi seems like the most evil to me. True evil, no passion, just pure logical evil. The kinda woman I could marry and spend the rest of my life with. A soulmate.

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I am not really interested in the motivation of forsaken, I would like to reward evilest based on quantifiable successes.

I do think there is a toss up between two forsaken for MVP of evil.

because a dollar amount can be assigned to each act

 

Generaling, Administrating the dark side, killing millions. $48 Billion

Torture, Compulsion, "reeducation" $56 Billion

Undermining the light and instilling a belief in DO $63 Billion

A 3000 year tradition of servitude, connecting a Legacy from the last age. Priceless.

 

And for evilest person Ishmael wins the Gold metal, Aginor gets the Silver for Trollocs, in close second. The Bronze metal will not be awarded in this age.

 

Pretty much.

 

I'd like to toss n, Ishy plans would be a lot worse off without shadowspawn, so without Agi, where is Ishy? Agi has to win over him because Ishy used his creations for so much!

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i totally agree, it is a toss up, but I decided that any evil genius could have made shadow spawn so aginor gets only partial credit for the last 3000 yrs because, without ishy, the trollocs would have just killed each other. and Ishy also gets credit running DO's fan club for 3000 yrs.

Aginor made trollocs, but ishy used them- 50/50 seem fair? add DO fan club, Ishy beats Aginor out.

Just to be clear <60 yrs* of work before breaking and <5 yrs after waking pales in comparison to 3000 yrs so I won't even bother to compare how useless aginor has been in the last <5 yrs compared to Ishy's marathon of successes.

 

*I don't actually know how long, just remember that old guy who was at bore, then as old guy dies during sealing

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i totally agree, it is a toss up, but I decided that any evil genius could have made shadow spawn so aginor gets only partial credit for the last 3000 yrs because, without ishy, the trollocs would have just killed each other. and Ishy also gets credit running DO's fan club for 3000 yrs.

Aginor made trollocs, but ishy used them- 50/50 seem fair? add DO fan club, Ishy beats Aginor out.

Just to be clear <60 yrs* of work before breaking and <5 yrs after waking pales in comparison to 3000 yrs so I won't even bother to compare how useless aginor has been in the last <5 yrs compared to Ishy's marathon of successes.

 

*I don't actually know how long, just remember that old guy who was at bore, then as old guy dies during sealing

 

I'd give them a tie. Ishy was putting in OT, but that's just because he was the only one free to travel around, the rest were kinda stuck in limbo.

 

Props on the Fan Club comment, that's something. Hmm... Still it's like Sesame Street, all that evil was brought to you by,,, AGI!

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