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SparrowHawk

Understanding Perrin

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I believe RJ's intention was to make the 3 boys equal but different. This however, is close to impossible. The value of the actions of Mat and Perrin I believe will be equally valuable to victory at TG, but it seems like most people just want to take sides.

 

Both Mat and Perrin have caused butterfly effects, thereby inadvertently solving major issues. They're Ta'veren. Many of the cool things they do, and the cool things that happen to them are unintentional.

 

Some boring things happen in their stories, that's how the author spun the tale. Give a guy a break if life isn't convenient enough to wrap up in a few chapters. Yes, I wish the Shaido chapter would've ended sooner, and I think a condensed version of the series would be kinda cool (blasphemy probably, but oh well) but Perrin did well in the situation. Valan Luca circus chapters sucked too, it's just that point in the story where RJ got more long-winded.

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And Perrin led men since returning to the TR - so he's been leading longer than Mat. He didn't refuse to lead either. So your point is that while leading men, he wasn't exactly happy about having to lead men? Same is true of all of the boys. Which was my point.

 

What Perrin was doing originally in the Two Rivers hardly qualifies as leading. People followed sure, but he hardly led. My personal opinion, I know.

Of course it qualifies as leading. He took charge, organised resistance.

 

 

Mat's importance to the resolution to the Bowl of the Winds storyline was marginal. It was used without him, it would have been found without him.

 

False. His taveran nature was what caused Elyane and Ny to get caught up with Setalle and dragged to the group. Without Mat there, no bowl would have been found.

Ta'veren alters probability, not possibility. If ta'veren is the basis of your argument, then at best Mat made it more likely to happen. Without him it still could. Plus, if the Pattern needed it to happen and mat was not available, it could create another ta'veren. Not really anything Mat did.

 

 

It never displayed much intention of wreaking havoc, though. Not much of an achievement. He killed something that tried to kill him. Tricky, but not massively important in the wider scheme.
Because it was focused on Mat because he hurt it. It wanted Mat dead with a passion. That's why it didn't wreak much havoc.
Wanting Mat dead does not preclude causing havoc. Does it display a desire to cause havoc? Does it have any havoc causing plans after Mat is gone? The gholam counts as Mat survivng an attempt on his own life, which all the boys have done. Mat just had to deal with a unique assassin. Insignificant achievement in the wider scheme.

 

 

No. Egwene soldified control on her own. Mat did precious little to help here.

And how did she get the sisters moving? The Band. Without the band, no moving. No moving, no meeting up with those nobles and forcing the sisters to let her lead.

That she used the Band does not mean the Band is the only thing that could be used. Mat's army - not Mat himself - was conveniently placed for Egwene to use. Mat himself did nothing, that is Egwene's achievement. If you want to give credit to Mat, then Mat is Dragonsworn, and the only reason he had an army in the vicinty is Rand. Therefore it is Rand who gets credit, not Mat. Rand moved the army, Egwene used it, Mat was present. Might as well give Talmanes credit for that one, or maybe Nerim.

 

 

It might have big repurcussions, but it hasn't yet. So I think you're speaking a bit too soon.

 

It's already having effects. Rand's meeting with Tuon, she mentions Mat, which sets Ny off, which makes Tuon think, causing her to go ahead with the attack on the WT, leading to Elayne getting the seat.

You mean Egwene. And no, Egwene would have the Seat anyway - Elaida's incompetence compared to Egwene saw to that. And attacking the WT was soemthing the Seanchan had planned anyway. So Mat's impact has been to make things that would have happened happen at a slightly different time to when they would otherwise have occured? He hasn't changed any outcomes.

 

 

Perrin tied a string to the Seanchan, destroyed the Shaido, and indirectly helped to bring about Mesaana's condition (he brought the Dreamspike to TV, which kept the AS and BA in the area, rather than where they had a trap prepared. Thus negating their advantage, thus contributing to a WT victory. Really, it's all about spin. You want to make Perrin look bad and Mat look good, so you exaggerate Mat's achievements and downplay Perrin's. By the same token, one can downplay Mat's and exaggerate Perrin's.

 

Mat's string is bigger, there are plently of Shaido left, even if they stayed where they were, they were in no one's way at that location. Perrin also gave the Seanchan hundreds of weapons in the form of the Wise Ones.

Size matters not. It is not numbers of Shaido that are important, but threat - they are no longer a threat thanks to Perrin. They were before. As for giving the Seanchan hundreds of weapons, if they are useful at TG then that is a further point in his favour.

 

It is all about spin, I agree. But to say Perrin did much more than Mat is just silly. Personally I'd give the edge to Mat, but they may be equal. (That was my original debate I believe)
It's not silly to say Perrin did more than Mat. Presented in the right light, Mat's accomplishments look pretty paltry next to Perrin's. You've hardly offered a decent argument against that.

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Of course it qualifies as leading. He took charge, organised resistance.

 

You're misunderstanding me on purpose. But ok.

Ta'veren alters probability, not possibility. If ta'veren is the basis of your argument, then at best Mat made it more likely to happen. Without him it still could. Plus, if the Pattern needed it to happen and mat was not available, it could create another ta'veren. Not really anything Mat did.

There was no guarentee of this happening without Mat. In fact they took him along to make it more likely that it would happen, because they knew he would be of help. They went to see him, ended up with Setalle, because they knew they needed him. You're being really dense claiming he had nothing to do with this, or wasn't the main reason it was found. Hell, he was what allowed the bowl to be used as well by making another agreement with the Seafinders. Deny that one too.

 

Wanting Mat dead does not preclude causing havoc. Does it display a desire to cause havoc? Does it have any havoc causing plans after Mat is gone? The gholam counts as Mat survivng an attempt on his own life, which all the boys have done. Mat just had to deal with a unique assassin. Insignificant achievement in the wider scheme.

 

Yes it displays a desire to cause havoc. It loves being free and can't wait to taste the blood of other channelers. What's holding him back? His mission, which now chiefly focuses around Mat. Imagine that thing free in the AS camp. What would have stopped it?

 

That she used the Band does not mean the Band is the only thing that could be used. Mat's army - not Mat himself - was conveniently placed for Egwene to use. Mat himself did nothing, that is Egwene's achievement. If you want to give credit to Mat, then Mat is Dragonsworn, and the only reason he had an army in the vicinty is Rand. Therefore it is Rand who gets credit, not Mat. Rand moved the army, Egwene used it, Mat was present. Might as well give Talmanes credit for that one, or maybe Nerim.

 

Why was the Band there? Mat could have refused. Why did Mat do it? Because he felt the need to help his friends. Mat just going there allowed her access to the Band, Mat choosing to go with Ny and Elayne allowed her further access to the Band, Mat telling Talmanes to trail Eggy allowed her to use the band.

 

You mean Egwene. And no, Egwene would have the Seat anyway - Elaida's incompetence compared to Egwene saw to that. And attacking the WT was soemthing the Seanchan had planned anyway. So Mat's impact has been to make things that would have happened happen at a slightly different time to when they would otherwise have occured? He hasn't changed any outcomes.

 

Yes that's what I meant. Again, no guarentee Elaida would have been unseated anytime soon. They planned it, but Tuon didn't approve. Remember she states her meeting with Rand made the decision for her.

 

Size matters not. It is not numbers of Shaido that are important, but threat - they are no longer a threat thanks to Perrin. They were before. As for giving the Seanchan hundreds of weapons, if they are useful at TG then that is a further point in his favour.

 

They were a threat on the other side of the world near nothing at that point? They're still as much of a threat where they were (they just went up into the mountains as far as Perrin knows) as they are now. And that is a big IF right there. You can claim the wise ones would have fought on their own at the last battle. Huge if.

 

It's not silly to say Perrin did more than Mat. Presented in the right light, Mat's accomplishments look pretty paltry next to Perrin's. You've hardly offered a decent argument against that.

 

In your mind perhaps, I feel your "arguments" were hardly decent.

 

But hey, that's how debates work! What a wonder.

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You're being really dense claiming he had nothing to do with this, or wasn't the main reason it was found. Hell, he was what allowed the bowl to be used as well by making another agreement with the Seafinders. Deny that one too.

 

Nyn and Elayne were involved in the initial need search. Again taveren changes probability. They might not have found it quite so fast but Elayne knew what the building looked like and they already had a chance of doing so or it never would have happened. Mr Ares never claimed he had "nothing" to do with it. Just that they didn't necessarily need him to be there which is quite correct.

Edited by Suttree

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You're being really dense claiming he had nothing to do with this, or wasn't the main reason it was found. Hell, he was what allowed the bowl to be used as well by making another agreement with the Seafinders. Deny that one too.

 

Nyn and Elayne were involved in the initial need search. Again taveren changes probability. They might not have found it quite so fast but Elayne knew what the building looked like and they already had a chance of doing so or it never would have happened. Mr Ares never claimed he had "nothing" to do with it. Just that they didn't necessarily need him to be there which is quite correct.

 

They barely found it in time with Mat's help. You think the Seanchan would have let them continue their search?

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You're being really dense claiming he had nothing to do with this, or wasn't the main reason it was found. Hell, he was what allowed the bowl to be used as well by making another agreement with the Seafinders. Deny that one too.

 

Nyn and Elayne were involved in the initial need search. Again taveren changes probability. They might not have found it quite so fast but Elayne knew what the building looked like and they already had a chance of doing so or it never would have happened. Mr Ares never claimed he had "nothing" to do with it. Just that they didn't necessarily need him to be there which is quite correct.

 

They barely found it in time with Mat's help. You think the Seanchan would have let them continue their search?

 

Again you seem to be forgetting how taveren and the pattern work...the girls quite clearly played the major role in regards to the bowl from start to finish. It is becoming quite clear from multiple threads that you have no problem allowing bias(in this case pro Mat) to shape your views regardless of what actually happened in the text.

Edited by Suttree

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You're being really dense claiming he had nothing to do with this, or wasn't the main reason it was found. Hell, he was what allowed the bowl to be used as well by making another agreement with the Seafinders. Deny that one too.

 

Nyn and Elayne were involved in the initial need search. Again taveren changes probability. They might not have found it quite so fast but Elayne knew what the building looked like and they already had a chance of doing so or it never would have happened. Mr Ares never claimed he had "nothing" to do with it. Just that they didn't necessarily need him to be there which is quite correct.

 

They barely found it in time with Mat's help. You think the Seanchan would have let them continue their search?

 

Again you seem to be forgetting how taveren and the pattern work...the girls quite clearly played the major role in regards to the bowl from start to finish. It is becoming quite clear from multiple threads that you have no problem allowing bias(in this case pro Mat) to shape your views regardless of what actually happened in the text.

 

Honestly? Really?

 

Your statement: They might not have found it quite so fast but Elayne knew what the building looked like and they already had a chance of doing so or it never would have happened.

 

How the pattern works. Tavern nature alters chance, however the chance already has to be there. 1 in 10 1 in 1000 1 in 10000, there's a chance of it occuring. Now, given that idea, which is how it works, Yes Elyane knew what the building looked like, in a area of thousands of buildings that looked similiar. Just because there is a chance of something occuring doesn't mean it will occur eventually, which is what you're implying.

 

Your statement: the girls quite clearly played the major role in regards to the bowl from start to finish.

 

Please show me where I stated the girls played no part in the bowl. I'd love you too.

 

Did the girls play a major role in finding the bowl? Well of course, they learned of the existence of the damned thing. However, did Mat lead them to the discovery of Setelle? Yes. Did Mat find the house before they did? Yes. Did Mat fend off the Gholem that would have killed Elayne and possibly the rest of the AS as well? Why yes, yes he did. Did Mat make it so the seafinders decided to move and ended up under Elayne's command, before the Seanchan attack, in fact right before? Why yes, yes he did.

 

So you're saying, despite all those things, if Mat wasn't there, Elayne and Ny would have been successful? Because that's what you're implying with your statements.

 

Speaking of Bias, it's glaringly obvious that you can't separate your dislike of my opinions to your dislike of everything I say, which is fine,but don't accuse me of bias when I produce solid facts. Of course now you'll come and deny these facts, I'm interested to see how however.

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Speaking of Bias, it's glaringly obvious that you can't separate your dislike of my opinions to your dislike of everything I say, which is fine,but don't accuse me of bias when I produce solid facts.

 

Don't single me out, other people across multiple threads have been saying much the same. Funny how often you confuse "facts" with your personnel opinion that has shown to be extremely suspect.

 

Your bias towards Mat in making light of Perrin's accomplishments and making statements such as...

 

snapback.pngVardarmus, on 26 June 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

Mat is the reason most of the population isn't dead (Bowl of winds anyone) right now.

 

is quite evident. Anyone reading the thread can see that. The fact that I am defending Perrin of all people in this instance shows just how glaring it is.

Edited by Suttree

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Of course it qualifies as leading. He took charge, organised resistance.
You're misunderstanding me on purpose. But ok.
No, you're explaining yourself poorly. By what measure was Perrin not acting like a leader in the TR?

 

 

Ta'veren alters probability, not possibility. If ta'veren is the basis of your argument, then at best Mat made it more likely to happen. Without him it still could. Plus, if the Pattern needed it to happen and mat was not available, it could create another ta'veren. Not really anything Mat did.
There was no guarentee of this happening without Mat. In fact they took him along to make it more likely that it would happen, because they knew he would be of help. They went to see him, ended up with Setalle, because they knew they needed him. You're being really dense claiming he had nothing to do with this, or wasn't the main reason it was found. Hell, he was what allowed the bowl to be used as well by making another agreement with the Seafinders. Deny that one too.
There was no guarantee of it happening even with Mat. And while he did contribute, your initial claim was that he was the person primarily resonsible - "the reason most of the population isn't dead right now." By the same token, without Nynaeve and ELayne going there, the Bowl would never be used. Without Setalle, the Kin are never found so Mat doesn't find the Bowl. So Mat has to share credit with Setalle, Elayne, Nynaeve, and everyone else involved. Put like that, Mat looks rather less special. How can his acievements outshine Perrin's, when he has done something that every man and his dog has accomplished as well? While Mat was a contributor, he was not the person primarily responsbile for the Bowl being used to clear up the weather.

 

 

Wanting Mat dead does not preclude causing havoc. Does it display a desire to cause havoc? Does it have any havoc causing plans after Mat is gone? The gholam counts as Mat survivng an attempt on his own life, which all the boys have done. Mat just had to deal with a unique assassin. Insignificant achievement in the wider scheme.

 

Yes it displays a desire to cause havoc. It loves being free and can't wait to taste the blood of other channelers. What's holding him back? His mission, which now chiefly focuses around Mat. Imagine that thing free in the AS camp. What would have stopped it?

When does it display a desire to cause havoc? Also, as to what would stop it, I would imagine much the same thing as actually stopped it. It can be driven off by channelers, and it was forcing it through a Gateway that actually killed it. Also, other ter'angreal exist with the same function as the foxhead, so they likely have the same side effects. Again, this is good work on Mat's part, but had Mat not been there the shape of the story would not be dramatcially different.

 

 

 

That she used the Band does not mean the Band is the only thing that could be used. Mat's army - not Mat himself - was conveniently placed for Egwene to use. Mat himself did nothing, that is Egwene's achievement. If you want to give credit to Mat, then Mat is Dragonsworn, and the only reason he had an army in the vicinty is Rand. Therefore it is Rand who gets credit, not Mat. Rand moved the army, Egwene used it, Mat was present. Might as well give Talmanes credit for that one, or maybe Nerim.

 

Why was the Band there? Mat could have refused. Why did Mat do it? Because he felt the need to help his friends. Mat just going there allowed her access to the Band, Mat choosing to go with Ny and Elayne allowed her further access to the Band, Mat telling Talmanes to trail Eggy allowed her to use the band.

Mat was there because Rand sent him there. It was done on Rand's orders, and Rand opened the Gateway that got them there. Given that getting Elayne to Caemlyn was the mission, he couldn't very well stay behind, and nor could he take the entire Band with him. Mat was involved, certainly, but it was Egwene's achievement first and foremost, and Rand made it possible. It's a big stretch to give credit to Mat.

 

 

You mean Egwene. And no, Egwene would have the Seat anyway - Elaida's incompetence compared to Egwene saw to that. And attacking the WT was soemthing the Seanchan had planned anyway. So Mat's impact has been to make things that would have happened happen at a slightly different time to when they would otherwise have occured? He hasn't changed any outcomes.

 

Yes that's what I meant. Again, no guarentee Elaida would have been unseated anytime soon. They planned it, but Tuon didn't approve. Remember she states her meeting with Rand made the decision for her.

But Mat didn't. Mat was mentioned at the meeting, but he had no impact on the outcome - she made her move because she needed to strike at Rand. Mat had nothing to do with that result. And Elaida was growing weaker evey damn day, and Egwene stronger. So yes, it would happen soon, it happened sooner because of the attack, but the attack had nothing to do with Mat so in no way does Mat get credit.

 

 

Size matters not. It is not numbers of Shaido that are important, but threat - they are no longer a threat thanks to Perrin. They were before. As for giving the Seanchan hundreds of weapons, if they are useful at TG then that is a further point in his favour.

 

They were a threat on the other side of the world near nothing at that point? They're still as much of a threat where they were (they just went up into the mountains as far as Perrin knows) as they are now. And that is a big IF right there. You can claim the wise ones would have fought on their own at the last battle. Huge if.

The Shaido were not on the far side of the world. They were gathering strength, after being spread out. Now, they are resolved to return to the Three Fold Land. In other words, it is thanks to Perrin's actions that they have decided to remove themselves from the Westlands, and thus remove themselves as a threat to the Westlands. As for the Wise Ones, if they had fought at TG, then it is zero sum. Nothing is gaine,d nothing is lost - they fight as damane rather than free. It is neither a point for nor one against Perrin, save the moral one (which comes down to whether it is better to enslave than murder).

 

 

 

It's not silly to say Perrin did more than Mat. Presented in the right light, Mat's accomplishments look pretty paltry next to Perrin's. You've hardly offered a decent argument against that.

 

In your mind perhaps, I feel your "arguments" were hardly decent.

 

But hey, that's how debates work! What a wonder.

But I can back my points up, rather than just saying Mat is awesome, Perrin sucks and hoping people believe it.

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Mat's role is a catalyst much more than Perrin's. Every accomplishment he has done basically requires him to be in the right place at the right time, but that is his special power. At pretty much any time with him, if all the pieces were there but he wasn't, nothing would of happened. He can do a lot more because he pretty much just has to stand there looking pretty and let the situation come to him. That doesn't discount his importance though, if he wasn't there, Tar Valon would still be broken, the bowl of the Winds would still be lost, Thom would have drunk himself to death, Nyn and Elayne would be dead by gholam.

 

Perrin on the other hand has to work for his money. So he has less accomplished, but what he has done is raise a substantial army that wouldn't be there otherwise, given Rand a strong backing in the BT by giving a backbone to the TR channelers, destroyed the Shaido and cleaned up the dragonsworn problem. These things are important, but required a lot more work on his part and so they are demonstrably less than what Mat has done.

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Mat's role is a catalyst much more than Perrin's. Every accomplishment he has done basically requires him to be in the right place at the right time, but that is his special power. At pretty much any time with him, if all the pieces were there but he wasn't, nothing would of happened. He can do a lot more because he pretty much just has to stand there looking pretty and let the situation come to him. That doesn't discount his importance though, if he wasn't there, Tar Valon would still be broken, the bowl of the Winds would still be lost, Thom would have drunk himself to death, Nyn and Elayne would be dead by gholam.

 

Perrin on the other hand has to work for his money. So he has less accomplished, but what he has done is raise a substantial army that wouldn't be there otherwise, given Rand a strong backing in the BT by giving a backbone to the TR channelers, destroyed the Shaido and cleaned up the dragonsworn problem. These things are important, but required a lot more work on his part and so they are demonstrably less than what Mat has done.

 

Do intentions count? Does planning count? Because when it comes to Perrin's achievements cited above, my reading is that his sole purpose and goal was to rescue Faile. The rest to him was secondary ... "collateral" achievements. Perrin working for his money started after he forged his hammer. His rescue of Galad and the WC's is his achievement. And his upcoming actions vis-a-vis the BT (dreamspike) and the Field of Merrilor will be credited to him.

 

And way before the Faile capture, his defense of the Two Rivers was as heroic as you can get. And to a lesser extent, his rescue of Rand in Dumai Wells is worthy. But in between the Dumai Wells and rescuing Galad, Perrin was obsessed with Faile's rescue at any cost.

 

As to Mat, depicting him as just being there for things to fall in place is grossly unrepresentative of post-healing Mat. I've always read him after being healed from the dagger as the man Rand and others turn to for "special operations." He tried to resist his fate till Rand shook him and told him to quit trying to run away. But he wasn't a "pretty" who needed to stand on a street corner for events to fall in place.

 

- Mat's mission to deliver Elayne's letter to Morgase exposed Gaebril to Rand

- Mat's mission to save Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne in Tear was a pro-active initiative that preserved some very important threads for Rand.

- Mat's military genius in stopping Rahvin's expansion into Cairhien, and turning Rahvin's forces back, set in motion another sequence of events that were central to Rand's cause.

- Mat's part in Rand's Illian plan (which was mostly Mat's plan with Rand and Bashere nodding) and marching the Band to Tear was a mission

- Mat's mission to Salidar showed that Rand turned to him when he needed something important done. And it gave Egwene an excuse to start mobilizing for the siege of Tar Valon

- Mat's role in the Bowl of Winds (as you pointed out) was central to the mission's success.

- Mat's planning and conducting of the Great Escape as well as the escape from Ebou Dar is a prolonged story of his ta'vernness, genius, and tenacity.

- Mat's attrition campaign against the Seanchan is legendary in its results

- Mat's epic battles against the golam show how he plans and carries out difficult mission.

- Mat's rescue of Moiraine (giving up half the light to save the world) would never have happened without his planning, luck, and determination.

 

Mat is the "son of battles, trickster, gambler." He relies on his ta'veren nature and on his luck. But his planning, dedication, honor, and sense of responsibility outshine Perrin's by a long shot. It isn't fair to put those two in the same category of leaders, tacticians, and strategists.

Edited by Theodril

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I dont think anyone is arguing that Mat isnt a better tactician and strategist than Perrin is.

He has a little help though.

Mat knows how a seige is going to go because he has been through 100s of them, on both sides.

He knows how to set up a battlefield because he has been through 100s of battles, both as high ranking and as grunt force.

Bashere is one of the Great Captains and he is astonded by Mat's abilities to set up a force.

These are gifts that were given to him, not things that he is just good at.

Hardly fair to put the two of them against each other in that.

I think that 1 on 1 Mat would beat Perrin in a fight if they had to, i think just strait 1 on 1 combat he would beat most.

 

But in Tel'aran'rhiod Perrin would own Mat. That is a talent he has. Perhaps they could compete in a "talking to wolves" competition.

 

Mat being a better General than Perrin does not mean that he has accomplished more. Which perhaps he has, but Perrins accomplishments are no small potatoes.

 

And yes, all the accomplishments do count for Perrin, even if he was single minded in his need to rescue his wife. They happened, they count.

Most of Mat's stuff he didnt plan. It just happened whether he wanted it or not. Much like his early battle victories, he was trying to run away from the fighting but his "Luck" seemed to put him in a position where he would was forced to fight, and win.

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I dont think anyone is arguing that Mat isnt a better tactician and strategist than Perrin is.

He has a little help though.

Mat knows how a seige is going to go because he has been through 100s of them, on both sides.

He knows how to set up a battlefield because he has been through 100s of battles, both as high ranking and as grunt force.

Bashere is one of the Great Captains and he is astonded by Mat's abilities to set up a force.

These are gifts that were given to him, not things that he is just good at.

Hardly fair to put the two of them against each other in that.

I think that 1 on 1 Mat would beat Perrin in a fight if they had to, i think just strait 1 on 1 combat he would beat most.

 

But in Tel'aran'rhiod Perrin would own Mat. That is a talent he has. Perhaps they could compete in a "talking to wolves" competition.

 

Mat being a better General than Perrin does not mean that he has accomplished more. Which perhaps he has, but Perrins accomplishments are no small potatoes.

 

And yes, all the accomplishments do count for Perrin, even if he was single minded in his need to rescue his wife. They happened, they count.

Most of Mat's stuff he didnt plan. It just happened whether he wanted it or not. Much like his early battle victories, he was trying to run away from the fighting but his "Luck" seemed to put him in a position where he would was forced to fight, and win.

 

Safwd, my post was in response to BC's comparison between Mat and Perrin and the logic of the comparison. Your response to my post has nothing to do with what I was trying to convey; as it implies that I do not acknowledge Perrin's achievements, which I cited and acknowledged fairly in accordance with how I read his character.

 

But I would like to comment on your comparison of Mat's a Perrin's "gifts." Mat has his luck, his battle memories, and his ter'angreal. Perrin has the wolves, TAR, and sensing people's emotions through smell. All 6 gifts are important and serve their purposes. And overall, they are balanced.

 

Finally, Mat is a better tactician and strategist because of his memories. But he is also a better leader for embracing his role, and for his willingness to sacrifice himself for others. If you follow Mat's arch carefully, you will see how he does more for others, strives to help others, and sacrifices himself for other people; rather than use them. Can you cite examples where Mat is using people like Rand or Perrin?

Edited by Theodril

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Nope.

Mat "I am no bloody Lord" Cauthon is a run into the fire to save a baby kind of guy. Whether he wants to be or not.

Mat is a bloody hero who really doesnt want to be, he just cant help himself.

 

Mat is certainly more charismatic than Perrin which is good for a leader. But Perrin is more of a thinker than Mat which is also a good trait in a leader.

And for the most part we are argueing apples to apples between this two, and those apples are leading people into battle. Mat certainly has the upperhand here due to the memories he was given.

Perrin does not have these memories yet he does quite well when put in the position using just the wits he has. The plan for Malden was excellent.

 

These are the character stories they were given.

Mat is the fun loving heroic fool.

Perrin is the moody deep thinker.

Rand is the tortured soul.

 

Its easy to like Mat more than Perrin or Rand. Through the entire story he is the more likeable character. He doesnt have dark moods that he other two do. Even when things are going bad for him he takes things as they come and makes the best of them.

If i were given the opportunity to hang out with any of the three it would be Mat every time.

 

And sorry for jumping in there on the last one, i must have read your post wrong. I know that you are acknowledging Perrin's accomplishments, you just see Mat's as more important.

I think in the overall scheme of things they are pretty close.Rand would be hosed without either of them.

It is clear Mat will be leading Rand's armies, i am not sure what Perrin's main job will be yet.

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Rand is the rider, Perrin is the horse, and Mat is the Lance.

 

Rand is the main character of the series, the "knight in shining armor", if you will. He is the "knight in shining armor", if you will. But we've known from the beginning that the three ta'veren are tied together, and all three are necessary for the Dragon Reborn to succeed in TG. I think the metaphor of a knight, his horse, and his weapon, is somewhat apt in describing the relationship between these three. As stated earlier, Rand would obviously be the "knight". Matt, as stated earlier, is kind of the "special ops" guy of the three, always there, striking at the precise instant to turn the tide in a battle, or tip the balance in finding something, or saving someone. Of course he's been seen to do more, he's that flashy.

 

Perrin, on the other hand, is the support that makes sure it can all go. His main conflict throughout the series was that he accepted the responsibility of having to support Rand, but didn't realize for a very long time (maybe too long a time), that for him to be a support, he had to grow himself. If you look at his consolidation of the center of Randland, he has created a necessary buffer between Seanchan controlled Randland, and Rand/Elayne controlled Randland. Whether or not he intended it, he has destroyed the Shaido as a threat to Rand, destroyed Masema's madmen, and consolidated the center of Randland in a credible power.

 

I am not one to judge who's actions are more important than the other. This isn't a contest, in my mind. Rather, all three have had necessary and important roles to fill, and without them, on numerous occasions, the entire plan could have gone astray.

Edited by DaoineSidhe

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Nope.

Mat "I am no bloody Lord" Cauthon is a run into the fire to save a baby kind of guy. Whether he wants to be or not.

Mat is a bloody hero who really doesnt want to be, he just cant help himself.

 

Mat is certainly more charismatic than Perrin which is good for a leader. But Perrin is more of a thinker than Mat which is also a good trait in a leader.

And for the most part we are argueing apples to apples between this two, and those apples are leading people into battle. Mat certainly has the upperhand here due to the memories he was given.

Perrin does not have these memories yet he does quite well when put in the position using just the wits he has. The plan for Malden was excellent.

 

These are the character stories they were given.

Mat is the fun loving heroic fool.

Perrin is the moody deep thinker.

Rand is the tortured soul.

 

Its easy to like Mat more than Perrin or Rand. Through the entire story he is the more likeable character. He doesnt have dark moods that he other two do. Even when things are going bad for him he takes things as they come and makes the best of them.

If i were given the opportunity to hang out with any of the three it would be Mat every time.

 

And sorry for jumping in there on the last one, i must have read your post wrong. I know that you are acknowledging Perrin's accomplishments, you just see Mat's as more important.

I think in the overall scheme of things they are pretty close.Rand would be hosed without either of them.

It is clear Mat will be leading Rand's armies, i am not sure what Perrin's main job will be yet.

 

We are in agreement that both Mat and Perrin have important achievements and key roles to play. I do not believe that Perrin's achievements are less important than Mat's. In fact some of Mat's missions cited in my earlier post were "errand boy for Elayne," "scarecrow for Egwene and Salidar," "salt for Nynaeve and Elayne in their Bowl of the Wind stew." Other missions, most notably his rescue of Moiraine are by prophecy epic and world-saving. But overall, the statistical count of Mat's missions exceeds Perrin's.

 

As to portraying Perrin as a thinker who thinks deeper than Mat is a point of discussion. Perrin as a slower thinker doesn't make him a man who thinks deeper; and Mat's thinking process that isn't as slow doesn't make his thinking "shallow."

 

Mat's thought and planning process for his escape from Ebou Dar up till his passage through the Malvide Narrows is a masterful exercise in planning and execution on many levels. To me, it trump's any other plan in the series so far. On the other hand, Perrin's plan in Dumai Wells was pretty straightforward ... Rand is in the trees, slash my way to him, and then run off. His plan to rescue Faile was more complex; but it still wasn't on the same scale as other genius plans by Light or Shadow commanders (Rand's Aiel plan, Moridin's WT demolition plan, Ituralde's war of attrition in Tarabon and Arad Doman, Mat's attrition plan to escape Altara).

 

Finally, it seems that Mat's rejection of being a noble is taken as the same thing as Perrin rejecting leadership. But those two are different. Mat rejects nobility, not leadership. The distinction must be noted.

 

Perrin on the other hand was thrust in his leadership role first when he met Egwene after the flight from Shadar Logoth (3 books before Mat is forced to lead in battle). And he embraced that minor role well. Lucky that I read that part of TEotW last night. And one of my notes was "Where did Perrin go wrong on leadership?" I don't have an answer to the question yet.

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I came to this thread after rereading many of the books. Safe to say, its incredibly frustrating to read about slow moving chases of PEOPLE ON FOOT by mounted armies led by Perrin, who has ridiculously capable scouting capacity (wolves, and his own Aiel). The freaking Shaido didn't even KNOW they were being followed. So how exactly were they magically moving?

 

This is the real irritating boring part: Book after book of simply following. Even Rand's escape from Moiraine's camp to Stone of Tear is way better, at least he's crazy.

 

The problem is this, Faile. I REALLY don't see why the kidnapping and rescue had to be such a long affair. What did they gain?

 

Perrin started out immediately with Berelain and Gallene (and soldiers of course)

 

He took Queen Alliandre in, soon after staging a fight with Rand. Faile was with him.

 

He got whitecloaks with him way after Faile got back.

 

Normally we can see the intent of the author about story arcs. I don't see it here. WHAT is it that the books gained by this kidnapping episode?

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I think its Faile that irritates to read about. Let's compare her to every other important female character, with their respective lover boys

 

1) Elayne : Daughter Heir. Later Queen. Behaves royally. A little stupid at times. Most importantly, she actually cares about the Last Battle, and so is excused from any other character flaws. 

 

2) Moiraine : Honest, almost to a fault. Royal, noble, selfless. Tries too hard to control, very sparing with explanation, but is never really very wrong. If only Rand could trust that she wouldn't hand him to the white tower, he would eventually trust her completely. Needless to say, excused. 

 

3) Siuan Sanche : Ruthless politicker, has her eye on the last battle, hence is excused. 

 

4) Egwene : Very superiorist thinking, believes far too much in the respect she deserves. Yet she manages to unify the White Tower, and has the right attitude towards the Seanchan. Not excused, exactly, but she commands little less than one half of the channelers of the Light.

 

5) Aviendha : Great moral sense through ji'e'toh. Down to earth, wise, maybe a little proud. Last Battle. Excused. 

 

6) Nynaeve : Accomplished as well as selfless Healer. Bossy, but heart always in the right place. She somehow is the only Aes Sedai even Dark Rand trusts. Basically completely genuine. Excused.

 

7) Min : Focused. Researches about Resealing of the Bore. Helps with viewing whenever it makes sense. Takes help of others when required. Excused

 

and we have

 

 

8) Tuon : Royal, stiff upper lip. Keeps to her word. However very rigid in world view. STILL, she cares about the Last Battle. Not excused, but commands some respect.

 

9) Faile : Royal. and most importantly : PETTY B***H!! NOT excused.

 

No one else in the entire series is as petty as this. She doesn't care about the Last Battle. She wants to screw around with Perrin, and help him attain glory. All she wants is to protect Perrin's interests, she even goes on to warn him that Rand is not Perrin's friend, as much as he is the Dragon. In something as climactic as the Last Battle, she not once cares about it.

 

What do you guys say? See a pattern?

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As for who died because of Perrin, Plently of unnamed characters died due to his mistakes and unwillingness to step up. I'm thinking in the Two River's battles, and later with his Faiel kidnapping. He did pretty damn good saving Rand from the sisters, I don't think any people died because of him then, but he took command, and told people what to do (first time).

reading this made me realize Perrin is the only one of the three who was surprise attacked, and had to do a tactical retreat

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I suppose that one of the reasons I like Perrin so much is that he, more than anyone else, burns Egwene.

 

1) When Egwene tries using the power after Shadar Logoth he tells her it is dangerous and she does typical "I Egwene, I right!" and later on Moiraine tells her not to channel without her because it is dangerous, Perrin snorts, Egwene shrugs.

 

2) When she tries to make him ride he says ok, but she has first turn and when she tries to argue threatens to put her on Bela himself!

 

3) When she tries to bust Rand's balls "Who's Min?" Perrin says, "Just a girl who worked in the stables.  Not like Aram."  Rand, "Who's Aram?"  Egwene, "Just a Tinker..."  Perrin, "He dances like a bird.  Isn't that what you said?  Like flying with a bird."  Egwene, "Time for bed!"  I ROFLMAO'd so hard in the reread!

 

4) T'A'R' Valon battle was most awesome "It's only a weave."

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Ther are "three" super bad guys to match the three boys

All three bad guys are super bad - like major risk to a lot of people bad

 

Rand - Fain

Mat - Gholam

Perrin - Slayer

 

At the same time Mat + Perrin decide sack up and take out their bad guys - both make plans to do so.

Result:

Mat 1 Perrin 0

Rand -1 (tounge in cheek) as he never even really worries about Fain (big mistake) - I mean sure he has 13 other bad guys to take out (some more than once) but still......

 

I'm using this as one example off what I think is Perrin's major flaw

The "I can't talk to any other major character ever" issue. He thinks he is alone in his struggles, no one can help him, he has to fix everything himself. One conversation with another main char and the result could have been different. I mean he knows the freaking DR and he thinks HE has issues????? Get real!!

 

He never asks any of the other Major players for help. Saved Faile without any (major char) help.

And he had gateways at the time. But rather than spend 50+ days asking for external help he just hands over Manetheren to the Seanchan. Smooth.

 

 

He was my fav char. But the no talking thing just bugs me. I hope it changes in amol.

And yeah he did change the Seanchan so it was all for the best it it BUGS me and that is the issue (not the deeds or the results)

MK

Edited by Webber_sun

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I'm using this as one example off what I think is Perrin's major flaw

The "I can't talk to any other major character ever" issue. He thinks he is alone in his struggles, no one can help him, he has to fix everything himself. One conversation with another main char and the result could have been different. I mean he knows the freaking DR and he thinks HE has issues????? Get real!!

To be fair, this isn't just Perrin's problem - all of them have communication issues.

He never asks any of the other Major players for help. Saved Faile without any (major char) help.

And he had gateways at the time. But rather than spend 50+ days asking for external help he just hands over Manetheren to the Seanchan. Smooth.

Given that he wasn't planning to raise Manetheren anyway, a promise to not raise Manetheren isn't really giving anything away.

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It's easy to say criticize how the characters do things, but they don't have the near omniscient view that we are entitled to. Imagine how much easier all of our lives would be if people just said everything they thought- oh, wait, we do...

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as someone who has not read the wheel of time series, I personally LOVE Perrin. His character is wonderful and in my eyes can do no wrong. 

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