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a'dam - too perfect?


dirk
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I'm doing a reread/relisten - and I'm towards the end of TGH - where we first see and learn all about the a'dam. It always struck me as a bit of a deus ex machina. Every possible way out was thought of by the inventor and blocked. That's what I mean by "too perfect". And of course it needs to be that perfect in order to work in the story. Does anyone else feel that way?

 

So one question. Could a damane, especially a powerful one, pull a "Lews Therin Kinslayer" - quickly draw down enough of the power to destroy herself and those near her - quick enough before she's overcome by the pain of the a'dam? Or even pull enough to still herself?

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Interesting question(about the suicide damane). I have no clue.

 

As for the first, though: the adam was designed by a female channeler, to hold female channelers. So it's very well designed for that purpose. But Nynaeve and Elayne were still able to find weaknesses in its design, and so did Aran'gar.

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from what I recall it effectively blocks the power to the collared unless the controller allows. I think this would preclude your LTT scenario

 

BUT, If I recall correctly the only thing blocking someone from moving or taking off the collar is pain, and pain can be dealt with if the individual is willing and has the strength to push through.

 

This is the weakness of this device, at least to me, that pain is the limiter, because pain can be dealt with and to a point ignored, both in the real world and in the WoT.

 

Egwene in her confrontation with Mesaana showed that if you can ignore the pain the collar cannot control you, at least in Tel'aran'rhiod, and so there is no reason why you could not take off the collar outside of the dreaming world if you were willing and able to pay the price in pain. And, as the saying goes, everything is impossible until someone does it once. If the Damane realize that it is possible to withstand the pain and break free some would try, and some may succeed, which would encourage others and so on.

 

Interesting idea, at least to me. Would it cause all to break free, no, but it would make it so that the strongest willed would see that if they persevere they may be free and that would throw a spanner into the works as far as the Seanchan are concerned

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"from what I recall it effectively blocks the power to the collared unless the controller allows. I think this would preclude your LTT scenario"

 

No - Egwene channels while she is alone in the damane quarters in Falme, but only a little bit because it makes her feel ill. She later gets punished because Rene now she was channeling as soon as she puts on the bracelet.

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"from what I recall it effectively blocks the power to the collared unless the controller allows. I think this would preclude your LTT scenario"

 

No - Egwene channels while she is alone in the damane quarters in Falme, but only a little bit because it makes her feel ill. She later gets punished because Rene now she was channeling as soon as she puts on the bracelet.

 

Thanks, I had forgotten that bit. What I get from trying to remember instead of looking it up

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"from what I recall it effectively blocks the power to the collared unless the controller allows. I think this would preclude your LTT scenario"

 

No - Egwene channels while she is alone in the damane quarters in Falme, but only a little bit because it makes her feel ill. She later gets punished because Rene now she was channeling as soon as she puts on the bracelet.

 

Thanks, I had forgotten that bit. What I get from trying to remember instead of looking it up

 

The issue with this is that it is still possible; remember there have been incidents of damane going haywire - not only around the periphery of Ebou Dar IIRC.

If it is the case that they only went haywire because of the incorrect ter'angreal implementation then it may be that ter'angreal affect each other in ways not only as is but also if they are being mishandled.

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A damane could never commit suicide by drawing too much Power, even if she were complete with a sul'dam who wasn't paying attention (this getting around the sick feeling Egwene expereinces) because the a'dam creates a link, and a link creates an artificial buffer similar to what an angreal creates.

 

No one in a link can draw more than their strength--in fact, they can't even draw their full strength at all.

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A damane could never commit suicide by drawing too much Power, even if she were complete with a sul'dam who wasn't paying attention (this getting around the sick feeling Egwene expereinces) because the a'dam creates a link, and a link creates an artificial buffer similar to what an angreal creates.

 

No one in a link can draw more than their strength--in fact, they can't even draw their full strength at all.

D

o we know that the "link" created by the a'dam does this? Its different from normal links in other ways, so can we assume this?

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There is nothing to suggest it doesn't, and the other differences of the a'dam link to a normal link are functional, specifically valuable to the use of the a'dam as a tool of control for those in the link. In effect, they are almost certainly artificial changes intentionally wrought for the value of their use... this wouldn't be, so I see no reason for its absence, even presuming removing the buffer from a link is possible. And too the other form of forced linking we've seen in the series which manifests some of the other elements of an a'dam link still retains the buffer.

 

And finally given a burn out cannot be held by an a'dam incidences would surely cause the issue of a burned out damane's moral culpability to have been raised amongst sul'dam in the past, which would have provided the likes of Renna, Seta, Bethamin and Tuon with a ideological basis to begin figuring out what they think of the sul'dam secret, instead its made entirely clear that this is the very first time any contradiction to their beliefs has been raised.

 

Burn outs are rare, but not rare enough for that to be the case.

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There is nothing to suggest it doesn't, and the other differences of the a'dam link to a normal link are functional, specifically valuable to the use of the a'dam as a tool of control for those in the link. In effect, they are almost certainly artificial changes intentionally wrought for the value of their use... this wouldn't be, so I see no reason for its absence, even presuming removing the buffer from a link is possible. And too the other form of forced linking we've seen in the series which manifests some of the other elements of an a'dam link still retains the buffer.

I'm talking about the fact that the a'dam prevents another link. That isn't a functional change. Sul'dam being able to link two damane would have enormous uses, but they can't. Given that, I'm hesitant to give the a'dam the de facto properties of normal links.

And finally given a burn out cannot be held by an a'dam incidences would surely cause the issue of a burned out damane's moral culpability to have been raised amongst sul'dam in the past, which would have provided the likes of Renna, Seta, Bethamin and Tuon with a ideological basis to begin figuring out what they think of the sul'dam secret, instead its made entirely clear that this is the very first time any contradiction to their beliefs has been raised.

I'm failing to see the connection between burned out women (who can't be held by the a'dam as you said) and the fact that sul'dam can be held by one, and can channel. A burned out woman can no longer channel, so she can no longer be held. I don't see moral implications beyond that.

Burn outs are rare, but not rare enough for that to be the case.

Burn outs typically occur with new channelers or with channelers attempting something very complicated/risky. Damane are at risk from neither. They're usually paired with experienced sul'dam at the beginning, and so don't end up overdrawing by accident. And they rarely do anything complex. They're the least skilled female channeler group out there.

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We know the Angreal buffer can be surpassed by pushing hard enough, as Rand was rather clearly overdrawing on the OP when he was using the CK on Dragonmount. (he was using the full power when he cleansed the source, and if I remember correctly, he drew even more at the end).

 

But buffers and other limits seem to be a way to prevent someone from accidentally overdrawing, giving them a sort of "it isn't safe past" line. But just like normally holding the OP they should be able to push over that line.

 

But really, overdrawing the OP is a poor way to try commiting suicide, probably much easier to create a weave of pure heat with yourself as the center. However, I do think the a'dam could, for a very short time, be beaten by someone overunning the restrictions with sheer willpower. But it would end up killing them regardless of what it did.

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Since the sul'dam has never touched the Source, it is impossible for her to conventionally link with damane;

also, the power-level augmentation (in conventional circles, two channelers' strengths are combined making them

stronger than an individual channeler but not at full strength as individuals together - if that makes sense) is also

unseen between sul'dam and damane.

This shows that it is NOT a linked circle and therefore would not buffer against overdrawing. Although, the sul'dam

could most likely make it so unbearable for the damane if she even attempted; however, that being said, I think the

click we saw in TAR of Egwene beating the a'dam is somewhat a reflection of the truth of the a'dam in reality

= she had more willpower than her 'sul'dam' (Mesaana).

The BA method of forcing channelers into their circles must be similar to this, however, the fact that the channelers

forcing others into these circles can channel themselves serves as an indirect reflection of the nature of the a'dam

as a ter'angreal. Originally, the holders of any bracelet (male or female) were aware and able to channel. Over time,

the male one must have become so rarely implemented that Deain either created/possessed the female version.

After Luthair received it, he must have insisted to collar all channelers and had/searched for 'regular' people to control

the a'dam.

Ultimately, the a'dam has many functions that were not expected by the creators; but, potentially, the leashed can

overcome/deal with the channeling sickness - and suicide, I believe, isn't too far out of the equation. As you said,

I am sure the sul'dam have tried to implement ways to avoid this outcome, but that doesn't make it impossible.

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There is nothing to suggest it doesn't, and the other differences of the a'dam link to a normal link are functional, specifically valuable to the use of the a'dam as a tool of control for those in the link. In effect, they are almost certainly artificial changes intentionally wrought for the value of their use... this wouldn't be, so I see no reason for its absence, even presuming removing the buffer from a link is possible. And too the other form of forced linking we've seen in the series which manifests some of the other elements of an a'dam link still retains the buffer.

I'm talking about the fact that the a'dam prevents another link. That isn't a functional change. Sul'dam being able to link two damane would have enormous uses, but they can't. Given that, I'm hesitant to give the a'dam the de facto properties of normal links.

 

When were you talking about that specific fact? You did not mention it in your initial reply.

 

In any case that likely is a functional change--or rather the result of a functional change. The nature of the a'dam forces a circle to form, and as a reasult trying to get damane to link is not just linking demane, it is linking two distinct circles. Now there may be a way to achieve this, but it is not using the Aes Sedai method of linking.

 

As a side note, its even possible that this element IS specifically a functional change. In a multi-person link, someone must guide the flows. The a'dam on the other hand works to keep as much of that in the hands of the damane possible creating almost dual leadership, and with good reason. Creating a multi-person link would force the sul'dam into a more active position within the link, which is counter to the purpose of the a'dam.

 

Of course we know the a'dam can be used in this manner--we see Nynaeve take a much more active role in leading the link, and no doubt that is what Deanne initially intended, so I'm by no means offering this as an argument, just as a food for thought.

 

But yes, I do feel comfortable making this connection based on the evidence at hand. Certainly there is nothing to even hint otherwise. You may, of course, feel free to disagree.

 

And finally given a burn out cannot be held by an a'dam incidences would surely cause the issue of a burned out damane's moral culpability to have been raised amongst sul'dam in the past, which would have provided the likes of Renna, Seta, Bethamin and Tuon with a ideological basis to begin figuring out what they think of the sul'dam secret, instead its made entirely clear that this is the very first time any contradiction to their beliefs has been raised.

I'm failing to see the connection between burned out women (who can't be held by the a'dam as you said) and the fact that sul'dam can be held by one, and can channel. A burned out woman can no longer channel, so she can no longer be held. I don't see moral implications beyond that.

 

The point I'm making is simply that it is very clear that Tuon, Bethamin, Renna and Seta have never looked at the question of what about a marath'damane makes her evil--is it the innate ability, or is it the act of channeling. If its the act then should burn outs be freed and allowed equal rights as citizens, or should they be da'covale? Should they be killed, because as channelers they are evil, but as burn outs they cannot even serve the Empire? If they aren't killed how does the Empire rehabilitate them from their time as damane? Ecetera Ecetera

 

And all of these considerations would have provided an ideaological precedent for the position Fortuona ultimately takes regarding her own ability to channel--whether it was 'like the burned out damane, Tuon etc didn't channel, and therefore...' or 'unlike the burned out damane, Tuon had never channeled...'

 

She might never have vocalised the thoughts, but it would have been clear that the question of channeler culpability wasn't always black and white--which to the contrary it is not. It is indeed made very clear that none of the sul'dam involved have ever had to consider the question of what makes a channeler evil, where that line is, and whether there are things on the other side of it such as burn outs or non-sparkers.

 

 

Burn outs typically occur with new channelers or with channelers attempting something very complicated/risky. Damane are at risk from neither. They're usually paired with experienced sul'dam at the beginning, and so don't end up overdrawing by accident. And they rarely do anything complex. They're the least skilled female channeler group out there.

 

 

Actually based on what we've seen of damane training the sul'dam routinely force the damane. We saw this with Egwene, it's why she jumps in strenth so dramatically during her time as a damane. The Black Tower practices forcing as a training method as well, and suffere dozens of burn outs, and the Aes Sedai make clear that the same thing would happen to women were they put through a similar training regime. Furthermore the limitations of a non-channeler teaching a channeler also increases the likelyhood of mishaps, no matter how experienced the sul'dam.

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The point I'm making is simply that it is very clear that Tuon, Bethamin, Renna and Seta have never looked at the question of what about a marath'damane makes her evil--is it the innate ability, or is it the act of channeling. If its the act then should burn outs be freed and allowed equal rights as citizens, or should they be da'covale? Should they be killed, because as channelers they are evil, but as burn outs they cannot even serve the Empire? If they aren't killed how does the Empire rehabilitate them from their time as damane? Ecetera Ecetera

 

In TGH, there's some talk about how the channellers in Seanchan were making a mess of the whole place when Hawkwings armies first arrived. This led to a war with them and the turncoat "aes sedai" - except these weren't the aes sadai known in middle earth. These had no rules against using the power. A quote from someone - "How could you let people with that power walk free to scheme".

 

The issues of what has Tuon thought about in terms of the damane is interesting, as are the topics you mention - like what place does a stilled damane have. But I think one of the strongest arguments that can be made against their practice, that the seanchan could comprehend, is that they are thieves. After all, what do you call someone who just takes another lord's servants. Everyone talks about sheltering in the hand of the creator, and that they are "servants" of the light. By turning channelers away from their intended servitutude to the light, the seanchan are thieves - stealing from the creator.

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The point I'm making is simply that it is very clear that Tuon, Bethamin, Renna and Seta have never looked at the question of what about a marath'damane makes her evil--is it the innate ability, or is it the act of channeling. If its the act then should burn outs be freed and allowed equal rights as citizens, or should they be da'covale? Should they be killed, because as channelers they are evil, but as burn outs they cannot even serve the Empire? If they aren't killed how does the Empire rehabilitate them from their time as damane? Ecetera Ecetera

 

In TGH, there's some talk about how the channellers in Seanchan were making a mess of the whole place when Hawkwings armies first arrived. This led to a war with them and the turncoat "aes sedai" - except these weren't the aes sadai known in middle earth. These had no rules against using the power. A quote from someone - "How could you let people with that power walk free to scheme".

 

The issues of what has Tuon thought about in terms of the damane is interesting, as are the topics you mention - like what place does a stilled damane have. But I think one of the strongest arguments that can be made against their practice, that the seanchan could comprehend, is that they are thieves. After all, what do you call someone who just takes another lord's servants. Everyone talks about sheltering in the hand of the creator, and that they are "servants" of the light. By turning channelers away from their intended servitutude to the light, the seanchan are thieves - stealing from the creator.

 

"Middle Earth" - loving the LOTR Freudian slip :)

 

Channelers aren't intended to serve the light. Indeed, the Seanchan opinion is overwhelmingly that channelers intend only to serve themselves. From the Seanchan perspective, they are forcing the channelers to serve the light as they percieve it by leashing them.

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BUT, If I recall correctly the only thing blocking someone from moving or taking off the collar is pain, and pain can be dealt with if the individual is willing and has the strength to push through.

 

Egwene in her confrontation with Mesaana showed that if you can ignore the pain the collar cannot control you, at least in Tel'aran'rhiod, and so there is no reason why you could not take off the collar outside of the dreaming world if you were willing and able to pay the price in pain. And, as the saying goes, everything is impossible until someone does it once. If the Damane realize that it is possible to withstand the pain and break free some would try, and some may succeed, which would encourage others and so on.

 

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BUT, If I recall correctly the only thing blocking someone from moving or taking off the collar is pain, and pain can be dealt with if the individual is willing and has the strength to push through.

 

Egwene in her confrontation with Mesaana showed that if you can ignore the pain the collar cannot control you, at least in Tel'aran'rhiod, and so there is no reason why you could not take off the collar outside of the dreaming world if you were willing and able to pay the price in pain. And, as the saying goes, everything is impossible until someone does it once. If the Damane realize that it is possible to withstand the pain and break free some would try, and some may succeed, which would encourage others and so on.

 

forgot to write...

didn't see any response to this.

 

Egwene would have lost is her bout with Messana was in real world and got an adam on Egwene. Perrin sparked her realization that in the dream, belief can outweigh balefire and you can see her growing thruout the fight in her dreamer abilities, here using belief, here a weave...

 

also the adam uses nausea as an inhibitor, Messana was inflicting pain thru the the link, tho it seems the male adam may use pain as an inhibitor, also visceral reactions can't be ignored, nausea that would cause someone to curl on the ground gripped by dry heaves cannot be ignored

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The link created by the a'dam should not be compared to linking in a circle. A circle is two or more channelers willingly merging their ability with one in control. While the a'dam is one taking over the other's ability and controlling it. When Nynaeve and Elayne have Moghedien in the a'dam and are learning the lost weaves they speak of the difficulty of learning the weaves because Nynaeve is controlling the weaves, and Moghdien is only able to tell her what she is doing wrong, but not show her. Also to link in a circle all members have to be wielding saidar prior to forming the circle, but Nynaeve has no problem using Moghedien, even though she had not overcome her block at that point.

 

The a'dam essentially makes the person wearing the necklace a ter'angreal, she IS damane when the necklace is on. Willpower can overcome some of the limiting effects of the a'dam (proven by Egwene being able to channel). But Egwene is a woman of EXTREME willpower (i.e. on a scale of one to 10 she is borderline 11). This is proven over and over in the books, and maybe most significantly when she breaks Mesaana in tel'aran'rhoid. It is also illustrated when Elayne says that Moghedien can not even touch saidar in the a'dam. To say that the "average" damane would have the willpower to overcome the effects is very far fetched. I am sure Moghedien would be above "average" and she could not overcome the a'dam.

 

To put it simply the a'dam has limits, but only those of the most extreme willpower can even begin to test those limits. Egwene admits, to herself at least, that if she were not rescued she would have been broken by the a'dam.

 

To whit, an experienced sul'dame would not channel enough to burn out her damane, but an inexperienced sul'dame or one in a panic may. I would not assume that the buffer effect of a circle is the same for the link made through an a'dam. Secondly, there is no way an damane could commit suicide by saidar, because the damane is not in control of her weaving, the sul'dam is determining what is woven.

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The sul'dam can have control over the weaving, or the damane does, as is the way for the Seanchan.

When Egwene was captured, her sul'dam tells her to set fire to a tree, or some such, but does not make/control her to do so.

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The link created by the a'dam should not be compared to linking in a circle. A circle is two or more channelers willingly merging their ability with one in control. While the a'dam is one taking over the other's ability and controlling it.

 

That can be done by a normal circle too, as proven by the Black Ajah's method of interogating or punishing people.

 

The a'dam essentially makes the person wearing the necklace a ter'angreal, she IS damane when the necklace is on. Willpower can overcome some of the limiting effects of the a'dam (proven by Egwene being able to channel). But Egwene is a woman of EXTREME willpower (i.e. on a scale of one to 10 she is borderline 11). This is proven over and over in the books, and maybe most significantly when she breaks Mesaana in tel'aran'rhoid. It is also illustrated when Elayne says that Moghedien can not even touch saidar in the a'dam. To say that the "average" damane would have the willpower to overcome the effects is very far fetched. I am sure Moghedien would be above "average" and she could not overcome the a'dam.

 

I don't understand this point? Of course will power will allow you to continue to touch the source despite the nausea induced by the a'dam when the bracelet is not worn. Any damane can do it, of course, but whether they'd continue would depend on their strength of will.

 

But if your trying to make the point that other damane couldn't have done what Egwene did--and further, have used this to commit suicide, as your summation suggests, then you are wrong. Weaving whilst wearing a collar requires the will power to ignore the nausea--which, as you suggest, few may have, especially once they see, as Egwene did, that it is pointless. Blindly drawing to suicidal levels, on the other hand, requires only desperation--a thing all damane at the point of breaking have. This is made very clear by the efforts to which sul'dam go to ensure that damane aren't allowed into a situation where they might commit suicide. If nothing else, the suicidal drawing has a point--enduring suffering to end suffering.

 

This further supports the point that just like any other link the a'dam creates a buffer, or else there would be a lot of dead damane.

 

To whit, an experienced sul'dame would not channel enough to burn out her damane, but an inexperienced sul'dame or one in a panic may. I would not assume that the buffer effect of a circle is the same for the link made through an a'dam. Secondly, there is no way an damane could commit suicide by saidar, because the damane is not in control of her weaving, the sul'dam is determining what is woven.

 

Your post does not support this deduction. The final sentence is actually incorrect in its entirety, the first is guesswork. The middle one has merits as a belief, much the same as how I feel that it is safe to assume that the a'dam does produce the buffer effect based on the evidence at hand. Neither is fact of course.

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I think that if the Channeler thought of the power as a way to kill herself she would never be able to do it. Kind of like Egwene and the pitcher in TGH. The same reason she can't just blast the Sul'dam with fire and kill them both.

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I think that if the Channeler thought of the power as a way to kill herself she would never be able to do it. Kind of like Egwene and the pitcher in TGH. The same reason she can't just blast the Sul'dam with fire and kill them both.

 

Then why doesn't the a'dam block throwing themselves in a river?

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The link created by the a'dam should not be compared to linking in a circle. A circle is two or more channelers willingly merging their ability with one in control. While the a'dam is one taking over the other's ability and controlling it.

 

That can be done by a normal circle too, as proven by the Black Ajah's method of interogating or punishing people.

 

The a'dam essentially makes the person wearing the necklace a ter'angreal, she IS damane when the necklace is on. Willpower can overcome some of the limiting effects of the a'dam (proven by Egwene being able to channel). But Egwene is a woman of EXTREME willpower (i.e. on a scale of one to 10 she is borderline 11). This is proven over and over in the books, and maybe most significantly when she breaks Mesaana in tel'aran'rhoid. It is also illustrated when Elayne says that Moghedien can not even touch saidar in the a'dam. To say that the "average" damane would have the willpower to overcome the effects is very far fetched. I am sure Moghedien would be above "average" and she could not overcome the a'dam.

 

I don't understand this point? Of course will power will allow you to continue to touch the source despite the nausea induced by the a'dam when the bracelet is not worn. Any damane can do it, of course, but whether they'd continue would depend on their strength of will.

 

But if your trying to make the point that other damane couldn't have done what Egwene did--and further, have used this to commit suicide, as your summation suggests, then you are wrong. Weaving whilst wearing a collar requires the will power to ignore the nausea--which, as you suggest, few may have, especially once they see, as Egwene did, that it is pointless. Blindly drawing to suicidal levels, on the other hand, requires only desperation--a thing all damane at the point of breaking have. This is made very clear by the efforts to which sul'dam go to ensure that damane aren't allowed into a situation where they might commit suicide. If nothing else, the suicidal drawing has a point--enduring suffering to end suffering.

 

This further supports the point that just like any other link the a'dam creates a buffer, or else there would be a lot of dead damane.

 

To whit, an experienced sul'dame would not channel enough to burn out her damane, but an inexperienced sul'dame or one in a panic may. I would not assume that the buffer effect of a circle is the same for the link made through an a'dam. Secondly, there is no way an damane could commit suicide by saidar, because the damane is not in control of her weaving, the sul'dam is determining what is woven.

 

Your post does not support this deduction. The final sentence is actually incorrect in its entirety, the first is guesswork. The middle one has merits as a belief, much the same as how I feel that it is safe to assume that the a'dam does produce the buffer effect based on the evidence at hand. Neither is fact of course.

 

I would suggest you re-read sections of Lord Of Chaos where Moghedien is wearing the a'dam. The points I made are pretty mutch taken directly from sections where Nynaeve is working with Moghedien through the a'dam or she and Elayne are talking about it's use. I trust their comments more then your thoughts. Since they have used one.

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Part of the reason why the a'dam works so may just be the conditioning of the Seanchan society. Damane believe they should be held because they are a risk to society. Quite possibly, the Seanchan will find AS, WO and Seafolk damane all trying to find ways past whatever proscriptions the A'dam sets up. The WO especially might do things the Seanchan haven't anticipated (though I'll bet they won't throw themselves in water ).

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