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Valley of Death

How to become a Great Captain

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ok the andorans don't really know who he is, all they know is that a dragonsworn tactician successfully fought against loyal andoran forces (whom Rhavin sent out to die)

Cairhein, I think he is primarily known as a friend of the dragon, not as a tactician.

The Aiel have a healthy respect for him, but in case you havent noticed the Aiel do not seem to be included in this count because against all the great generals the Aiel where kickin the hell out of them.

Tairens don't know it all that well, all he did was march by Tear

The seanchan have just found out what a good tactician he is, and to be honest they are not included in the count, plus he was able to do that campaign because the seanchan had almost no idea he was there initially. He would have had to be an idiot to screw that up.

OF the people you name the only ones of consequence (world wide) are Elayne and Bashere that could effectively increase his reputation. For rand too would look like Rand's just boostin his buddy up.

The aiel he fought skirmishes with them, not an actual battle battle with them, the main reason he was successful was because 1) friend of the dragon = automatically obeyed 2) he had intell about where they where (off the start) and where they would attack from by fluke.

 

 

all in all if you ask a average peasant in every country who the greatest captains alive are, not one of them would know mat's name. Among military circles he may be known, but I truly do not think he is militarily tested enough to be considered a great captain. afterall he has been leading troops for what a year and a bit max, with quite an extensive vacation in ebou dar, and then wandering with Luca

 

 

The Andorans know exactly who he is and then some thanks to Olver and the Redarms. The Band or part of the Band have been parked outside of Caemlyn for what, almost 2 months now. That's a lot of time for them to brag about Mat's ability as their commander.

Evidenced by Ma's conversation with Guybon on the way to meet Elayne in ToM 19.

 

The Cairheinians definitely know him and about him as evidenced in tFoH 51 and you can bet the Tairians that were in the City at the time have spread the word back to Tear.

 

Just the fact that everyone KNEW that Mat was being put in charge of all of the Dragon's forces in Tear by the Dragon himself would of spread like wildfire.

 

No, people know exactly who he is, a lot of people.

 

Paraphrasing Thom from ToM 47, Mat and Perrin are almost becoming too famous for their own good.

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ok the andorans don't really know who he is, all they know is that a dragonsworn tactician successfully fought against loyal andoran forces (whom Rhavin sent out to die)

Cairhein, I think he is primarily known as a friend of the dragon, not as a tactician.

The Aiel have a healthy respect for him, but in case you havent noticed the Aiel do not seem to be included in this count because against all the great generals the Aiel where kickin the hell out of them.

Tairens don't know it all that well, all he did was march by Tear

The seanchan have just found out what a good tactician he is, and to be honest they are not included in the count, plus he was able to do that campaign because the seanchan had almost no idea he was there initially. He would have had to be an idiot to screw that up.

OF the people you name the only ones of consequence (world wide) are Elayne and Bashere that could effectively increase his reputation. For rand too would look like Rand's just boostin his buddy up.

The aiel he fought skirmishes with them, not an actual battle battle with them, the main reason he was successful was because 1) friend of the dragon = automatically obeyed 2) he had intell about where they where (off the start) and where they would attack from by fluke.

 

 

all in all if you ask a average peasant in every country who the greatest captains alive are, not one of them would know mat's name. Among military circles he may be known, but I truly do not think he is militarily tested enough to be considered a great captain. afterall he has been leading troops for what a year and a bit max, with quite an extensive vacation in ebou dar, and then wandering with Luca

 

 

The Andorans know exactly who he is and then some thanks to Olver and the Redarms. The Band or part of the Band have been parked outside of Caemlyn for what, almost 2 months now. That's a lot of time for them to brag about Mat's ability as their commander.

Evidenced by Ma's conversation with Guybon on the way to meet Elayne in ToM 19.

 

The Cairheinians definitely know him and about him as evidenced in tFoH 51 and you can bet the Tairians that were in the City at the time have spread the word back to Tear.

 

Just the fact that everyone KNEW that Mat was being put in charge of all of the Dragon's forces in Tear by the Dragon himself would of spread like wildfire.

 

No, people know exactly who he is, a lot of people.

 

Paraphrasing Thom from ToM 47, Mat and Perrin are almost becoming too famous for their own good.

when was he put in charge of the dragons forces in tear? I must be forgetting that one because I cannot recall it

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From the context in the books Great Captains are someone who are recognized as being an expert in at least one or more facets of battle. Someone hit on it in a message above

 

Bryne is a good commander and is amazing at logistics and supply

Bashere is a good commander and an amazing cavalry strategist

Ituralde is a good commander and an amazing infantry tactician

Naile is a good commander and an amazing strategist and politician

Anglemar is a good commander and from what I can remember an renowned swordsman (he may have other but do not know, perhaps because he is on the blight is good at tactical analysis and fortifications?)

 

I don't think the number of GC is fixed, but rather it is the greatest living commanders at a particular time. More of a consensus among military and political leaders rather than a popularity contest.

 

Each of the people they consider Great Captains seems to have that little something extra, that bit they do better than anyone else. They can and do lose, but from what I remember they may not always win a battle, but seem to always win the wars......

 

The GC are renowned, respected by both enemies and allies. There are probably some that could be considered Great Captains, but have not been recognized, either because of age, circumstance or preference. Two or three of the characters in the books fall under this category, the most obvious and prominent being Mat and Lan.

 

Mat is not a GC (yet) because of age and a little of circumstance and preference.

Lan is not considered one because of preference and circumstance. It makes me wonder how many potential GC candidates have been lost to the Warder system.

 

I wonder how many of the Seanchen would or could be considered GC's. I am not sure their system would foster this type of commander, they seem to want to spread the innovation around and focus on specialization, improving the army as a whole. If they had someone like Bryne he would not be a field commander, he would be pigeonholed into a logistical support position and the martial aspects of his abilities would be lost. The other commanders would probably be placed into niches as well.

 

Interesting discussion, thanks to Valley of Death for starting it :rolleyes:

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I think the title Great Captain is something that was just given out by either nations or possibly the white tower. As far as military ability. I don't see it as Bryne being all that much or even Bashere. Bryne is more of a supply and logistics guy. Bashere comes across as a laze about chariot chaser. Interlude now there is a general that thinks on his feet. Nail seemed to be great in political maneuverability. Aglemar just seemed to be a guy that took war as something that needed to be done before bed time.

You do realise that being good at supply and logistics are more important than tactics? By saying Bryne is a supply and logistics guy, you are in fact pointing out one of the more vital qualites in a military leader. How do you expect to win a war when you can't get supplies to your men? History is replete with examples. Good logistics is in no way a knock on Bryne's generalship. That you think it is shows that really you know nothing about how to win wars.

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when was he put in charge of the dragons forces in tear? I must be forgetting that one because I cannot recall it

 

You couldn't have missed the part where Mat, Rand and Bashere came up with the grand plan for Illian. A huge part of that plan was letting everyone and their mother know that Mat was marching to Tear to take over operations there and then to go into Illian.

It was a huge feint to fool Sammael but only Rand, Mat and Bashere knew that. The actual plan was what was carried out at the end of aCoS.

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when was he put in charge of the dragons forces in tear? I must be forgetting that one because I cannot recall it

 

You couldn't have missed the part where Mat, Rand and Bashere came up with the grand plan for Illian. A huge part of that plan was letting everyone and their mother know that Mat was marching to Tear to take over operations there and then to go into Illian.

It was a huge feint to fool Sammael but only Rand, Mat and Bashere knew that. The actual plan was what was carried out at the end of aCoS.

oh your talking about when mat marches down from Cairhein along that river as a feint. That entire sequence has nothing to do with Tear, didn't mat also not make it there?

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when was he put in charge of the dragons forces in tear? I must be forgetting that one because I cannot recall it

 

You couldn't have missed the part where Mat, Rand and Bashere came up with the grand plan for Illian. A huge part of that plan was letting everyone and their mother know that Mat was marching to Tear to take over operations there and then to go into Illian.

It was a huge feint to fool Sammael but only Rand, Mat and Bashere knew that. The actual plan was what was carried out at the end of aCoS.

oh your talking about when mat marches down from Cairhein along that river as a feint. That entire sequence has nothing to do with Tear, didn't mat also not make it there?

 

As the Dragon's forces were stationed in Tear and were aware Mat was coming to take command, I would say you are slightly mistaken.

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when was he put in charge of the dragons forces in tear? I must be forgetting that one because I cannot recall it

 

You couldn't have missed the part where Mat, Rand and Bashere came up with the grand plan for Illian. A huge part of that plan was letting everyone and their mother know that Mat was marching to Tear to take over operations there and then to go into Illian.

It was a huge feint to fool Sammael but only Rand, Mat and Bashere knew that. The actual plan was what was carried out at the end of aCoS.

oh your talking about when mat marches down from Cairhein along that river as a feint. That entire sequence has nothing to do with Tear, didn't mat also not make it there?

 

As the Dragon's forces were stationed in Tear and were aware Mat was coming to take command, I would say you are slightly mistaken.

I thought they where more in the neutral area between tear and illian, and I also wouldn't consider its mat's campaign because he was taking a position of no consequence, if anything it is basheres campaign because he helped engineer it and developed and used the tactics to seize the city efficiently.

 

but you also didn't answer my question. did mat make it there?

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Mat does not make it to Tear. Rand comes to them on the march and sends them near Salidar.

so that whole thing was mute? Because he was never in fact put in charge of the dragon army that was poised to strike illian, or at least never got command of it.

 

but back to my original statement, Mat cannot be considered a great general yet

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I thought they where more in the neutral area between tear and illian, and I also wouldn't consider its mat's campaign because he was taking a position of no consequence, if anything it is basheres campaign because he helped engineer it and developed and used the tactics to seize the city efficiently.

 

but you also didn't answer my question. did mat make it there?

 

First off, you're missing the point. For their feint to be effective, it had to be well known that Mat was on his way there to take command. It had to be very public, everyone HAD to know!

Mat and the Band were marching to Tear for close to two weeks before Rand sent him to Salidar instead. That's more than enough time for rumours and info to flow.

 

Second, the tactics and plan to take Illian were more Mat's doing than Bashere's as told to us in LoC 1.

As are the tactics and methods employed by the Legion of the Dragon. Tactics and methods he modified and improved upon from a memories he recalled in tSR 37.

 

LoC 1:

"You and Mat worked out a good plan." The basic idea had been Rand's, but Mat and Bashere had provided the thousand details that would make it work. Mat more than Bashere.

 

 

Now I'm not saying that Mat is widely considered a "Great Captain" quite yet but his fame and path towards that title is much, much further along than you are making out.

Edited by Finnssss

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Mat does not make it to Tear. Rand comes to them on the march and sends them near Salidar.

so that whole thing was mute? Because he was never in fact put in charge of the dragon army that was poised to strike illian, or at least never got command of it.

 

but back to my original statement, Mat cannot be considered a great general yet

 

Moot is the word.

 

And I do not think so. The point that person was making to you is that everyone in the Dragon's armies and political circles was aware that when Mat arrived in Tear, the hammer would fall on Illian. The point obviously was to leak this information to Sammael. I never said anything regarding Mat's status as a GC, just correcting invalid assumptions.

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But how come everyone agrees on the great captains. I am sure at least one person would be like "Gareth Bryne, so overrated." or something like that. It is wierd because everyone excepts these 5 guys.

 

They don't have internet, so they have very few people who disagree for the sake of disagreeing. :)

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But how come everyone agrees on the great captains. I am sure at least one person would be like "Gareth Bryne, so overrated." or something like that. It is wierd because everyone excepts these 5 guys.

 

 

They don't have internet, so they have very few people who disagree for the sake of disagreeing. :)

 

Priceless!

Edited by Xo Meltdown oX

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You do realise that being good at supply and logistics are more important than tactics? By saying Bryne is a supply and logistics guy, you are in fact pointing out one of the more vital qualites in a military leader. How do you expect to win a war when you can't get supplies to your men? History is replete with examples. Good logistics is in no way a knock on Bryne's generalship. That you think it is shows that really you know nothing about how to win wars.

 

With that thought you are saying that Radar O'Riley is the greatest general since Alexander the Great. Outside of looking at supply papers what has he done in the books? I know he stood on the top of the river and watched boats leave TV for about a book and a half. Chased a girl he had the hots for for a book. Told Egwene that the army was behind her. Which was the dumbest thing yet. Because he would be behind whoever the AS put in charge.

 

Bryne overrated. Nothing in the books has stated that he is a great military mind. The more I think about it I believe that he was given the title by the WT in the first place.

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You do realise that being good at supply and logistics are more important than tactics? By saying Bryne is a supply and logistics guy, you are in fact pointing out one of the more vital qualites in a military leader. How do you expect to win a war when you can't get supplies to your men? History is replete with examples. Good logistics is in no way a knock on Bryne's generalship. That you think it is shows that really you know nothing about how to win wars.

 

With that thought you are saying that Radar O'Riley is the greatest general since Alexander the Great. Outside of looking at supply papers what has he done in the books? I know he stood on the top of the river and watched boats leave TV for about a book and a half. Chased a girl he had the hots for for a book. Told Egwene that the army was behind her. Which was the dumbest thing yet. Because he would be behind whoever the AS put in charge.

 

Bryne overrated. Nothing in the books has stated that he is a great military mind. The more I think about it I believe that he was given the title by the WT in the first place.

:rolleyes:

Bryne has been fighting Andors wars through three queens. If his reputation was not deserved, people would have noticed and commented. Not to mention, if his title was bestowed by the Tower (a Tower that did not have good relations with him, lets remember), why would they buy into their own hype and hire him to beseige Tar Valon, a feat last achieved by Sauran Maravaile?

 

Sometimes its sad how little of the books people understand.

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With that thought you are saying that Radar O'Riley is the greatest general since Alexander the Great. Outside of looking at supply papers what has he done in the books?.

Never was a fan of MASH. Supply and logistics are among the most important aspects of warfare. If it weren't, for example, Russians would be speaking French today. Or German. To think otherwise is naivete.

 

I know he stood on the top of the river and watched boats leave TV for about a book and a half.
You mean he lead a successful siege.

 

Chased a girl he had the hots for for a book.
It worked out in the end.

 

Told Egwene that the army was behind her. Which was the dumbest thing yet. Because he would be behind whoever the AS put in charge.
That's unlikely. By saying he was behind Egwene, he basically stated that his army would follow her even if the she were deposed.

 

Bryne overrated. Nothing in the books has stated that he is a great military mind. The more I think about it I believe that he was given the title by the WT in the first place
What has Agelmar Jagad done in the books? Or Pedron Niall? Or Demandred? Or Rand/LTT? Just because we have not seen them command armies in battle does not diminsh their abilities.

 

Actually, it was Myrelle's warder Nuhel who stated to the rebels that he was a Great Captain. He stated it as if it were a common fact and said that if the rebels intended to take Tar Valon, they would need one of the Five Great Captains (Bashere and Jagad wouldn't leave the Blight, Niall is a Whitecloak, and Ituralde is somewhere in Arad Doman.) Hardly sounds like Aes Sedai propaganda.

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Told Egwene that the army was behind her. Which was the dumbest thing yet. Because he would be behind whoever the AS put in charge.

 

Bryne overrated. Nothing in the books has stated that he is a great military mind. The more I think about it I believe that he was given the title by the WT in the first place.

 

Honestly starting to wonder if you have just been trolling with comments in a couple of threads. If not it is truly astonishing how much you have actually managed to miss from the text.

Edited by Suttree

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1. Mat

2. Hawkwing

3. Demandred

4. Guaire Amalasan

5. Weiramon

 

Hahahaha! I get it. Awesome.

 

What is it, I don't get it!

 

The joke is Weiramon making the list. Rand muses about him being a bumbling idiot militarily on many occasions.

 

The joke is more along the lines of Weiramon being a lot smarter than Rand gave him credit for.

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Told Egwene that the army was behind her. Which was the dumbest thing yet. Because he would be behind whoever the AS put in charge.

 

Bryne overrated. Nothing in the books has stated that he is a great military mind. The more I think about it I believe that he was given the title by the WT in the first place.

 

Honestly starting to wonder if you have just been trolling with comments in a couple of threads. If not it is truly astonishing how much you have actually managed to miss from the text.

 

I wondered the same thing. See the Heroes thread.

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1. Mat

2. Hawkwing

3. Demandred

4. Guaire Amalasan

5. Weiramon

 

Hahahaha! I get it. Awesome.

 

What is it, I don't get it!

 

The joke is Weiramon making the list. Rand muses about him being a bumbling idiot militarily on many occasions.

 

The joke is more along the lines of Weiramon being a lot smarter than Rand gave him credit for.

just wondering, didnt rand say that Weiramon was too powerful to be taken out by rand himself

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You talking about this?

 

Too stupid to leave behind, too powerful to shove aside, so he rode with Rand and thought himself honored. It was almost a pity he was not stupid enough to do something that would get him executed.

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Told Egwene that the army was behind her. Which was the dumbest thing yet. Because he would be behind whoever the AS put in charge.
That's unlikely. By saying he was behind Egwene, he basically stated that his army would follow her even if the she were deposed.

 

 

Because he made sure that the AS at Salidar were going to go through with the siege. Because Bryne knew that at the end of it all he was probably going to be hung. So telling the head of the AS that he was behind her was just a formality.

 

If Egwene went a different way then the rest of the Rebel AS I have a feeling Byrne would go with the side that would save his neck.

 

Or the side that Suian was on.

 

Which would have probably been with Egwene after all.

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Told Egwene that the army was behind her. Which was the dumbest thing yet. Because he would be behind whoever the AS put in charge.
That's unlikely. By saying he was behind Egwene, he basically stated that his army would follow her even if the she were deposed.

 

 

Because he made sure that the AS at Salidar were going to go through with the siege. Because Bryne knew that at the end of it all he was probably going to be hung. So telling the head of the AS that he was behind her was just a formality.

 

If Egwene went a different way then the rest of the Rebel AS I have a feeling Byrne would go with the side that would save his neck.

 

Or the side that Suian was on.

 

Which would have probably been with Egwene after all.

 

maybe.......

 

I get the impression from my reading that Bryne is cast as a man of his word, and once that word is given he will fulfill the promise no matter what.

 

He did not chose to leave Andor, he was cast aside and told to leave by the queen he had sworn to obey.

 

His promise to Egwene is presented as a personal one, above and beyond his leadership of the Salidar forces. From what I recall he was more worried about the men that followed him than about his own neck.

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The five renowned great captains between the Aryth Ocean and the Dragon Wall are Ituralde, Bashere, Bryne, Agelmar, and the late Niall. We take that piece of information or that distinction at face value. Not having seen their military genius at work should not detract from their status. So, I don't think it is possible to argue whether any of them is a great captain or not. They are recognized as such; and that's that.

 

We see a glimpse of Ituralde's genius and tenacity; and another of Bashere's. But we don't see any battles for the others; and we cannot go by how how much "screen time" each was given. Because if screen time was the factor, Mat would top that group; and even Mandevwin might qualify since he led a few battles on screen.

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