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RandA lThor

Egwene Appreciation Thread

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Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, particularly when Luckers has already given this topic his warning. Relentless strawmanning and ad hominem attacks are not the signs of a good argument.

 

It was a joke dude. You're the one attacking here.

 

If it was a joke then it wasn't very funny. Kael can be just as fanatical in his defense of Egwene as XXX is in denouncing her. Pointing out when someone is arguing badly isn't the same as attacking them.

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you know, one of the things mentioned, and I can't remember which book or by who, is that the pattern will continue to spin our false dragons until the real dragon takes the stage. With the rise of the true Dragon Reborn all remaining false dragons fall, for they are no longer needed by the pattern.

 

Looking at it from that perspective Logan had as little control over whether he declared himself a dragon or not. It was his destiny to be a false dragon, and the actions of a false dragon seem to closely mirror the actions foretold of the dragon, with the rending of the world and the path of destruction the bring wherever they travel. It seems that if the DR is not available to cause the chaos that the pattern demands, it will make due with a substitue until the real one shows up.

Oh, "the Pattern did it!" argument. I always love it when this rears its head. By this yeardstick, Egwene was also fated to oppose Rand, since Prophesy said she would, and also because the Pattern deliberately shut everyone but Egwene up when Rand addressed the Hall.

 

 

To a point, yes, the pattern did it.

 

To me this whole series is about the pattern and what happens to fulfill the needs of the pattern. All things, in broad strokes, are deterministic in nature as the cycles come and go.

 

There will be a time, or Age, of peace, followed by a time of growing presence of the anti-creator (the shadow). Then the shadow will be blocked, for a time, by an eternal champion who will then die, and the world will be racked and warped, causing a period of trial for the survivors and their decedents. This is then followed by an age where the champion returns to end the influence of the anti-creator, which is then followed, eventually, by a time of peace and prosperity.

 

That is the tale told by this series in very broad strokes.

 

It is in the fine detail that the true story lies, in the individuals and the way they were raised and the people they are. Logain and Taim were both demanded by the pattern to be False Dragons, the way they went about it was as individuals and non deterministic. Egwene was needed to be there by the pattern, her strength and the personality are her own.

 

That to me is the difference between normal, strong and powerful people and Ta'Veren. Normal people are influenced by the pattern to be where and what they are, not who they are. Ta'Veren are tools of the pattern that are spun out to influence the people to fill in the gaps, refining the broad strokes to keep the pattern complete and whole, correcting and directing to keep the pattern going the direction it is and always has gone. That said even Ta'Veren have free will, to a point. Their destination and direction is determined, the way they reach that destination and the steps they take in the process is not.

 

Also it seems that the Pattern needs a strong counter personality on the side of Light to the Dragon (or Dragon Reborn). In the Age of Legends this counter was Latra Posae Decume, in the current age it is Egwene. This person, it seems to me, is needed by the pattern to show that there were other paths than the one the Dragon was contemplating. They may be needed to open the debate and look for other ways to win.

 

In the AoL we don't know the story and development of Latra, don't know the person she was or what made her make the decisions and choices that led to the Strike and Shayol Ghul and the resultant counter strike and tainting of the male half of the Source. In the current age we know Egwene, know her growth, what she paid and how, to become the person she is. It is in this that the difference between these two deterministic characters lies, the finer points that fill in the broad strokes of the Pattern that placed each of these characters at their current place with their current influence in contrast to the uber Ta'Veren Dragon/Dragon Reborn

 

In the AoL this person blocked the desires of the Dragon, leading to the taint and the breaking of the world.

 

In the current age this person may show a better way, or may refine the plans of the Dragon Reborn, or ........ we will not know until next January :rolleyes:

Edited by wookiebear

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In the AoL this person blocked the desires of the Dragon, leading to the taint and the breaking of the world.

 

No she didn't. LTT's plan was flawed and LPD ended up being correct in thinking the plan was too dangerous. RJ said the only difference if the females had been involved is Saidar would have been tainted as well. The fact that the females hled out is the only way the world survived the breaking and yes I think it is entirely plausible that the pattern played a role in that.

Edited by Suttree

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In the AoL this person blocked the desires of the Dragon, leading to the taint and the breaking of the world.

 

No she didn't. LTT's plan was flawed and LPD ended up being correct in thinking the plan was too dangerous. RJ said the only difference if the females had been involved is Saidar would have been tainted as well. The fact that the females hled out is the only way the world survived the breaking and yes I think it is entirely plausible that the pattern played a role in that.

 

Yup, sorry, misstated, that was supposed to be more of a summation rather than a laying of blame.

 

I remember the RJ quote and did not mean to imply that all would have been good and roses with the plan LTT came up with. What I get for doing a long, involved post early in my daily caffeination cycle

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In the AoL this person blocked the desires of the Dragon, leading to the taint and the breaking of the world.

 

No she didn't. LTT's plan was flawed and LPD ended up being correct in thinking the plan was too dangerous. RJ said the only difference if the females had been involved is Saidar would have been tainted as well. The fact that the females hled out is the only way the world survived the breaking and yes I think it is entirely plausible that the pattern played a role in that.

 

I think actually the Strike is going to be a sort premonition of what really happens: Egwene and Rand will disagree, as Lews and Latra did, and they will both be right (the Strike was necessary, but the world was better because Latra opposed it and kept Saidar out). Somehow, by their disagreement, Rand and Egwene will arrive at the optimal solution, even if possibly they will resolve the argument and thereby solve the issue, while the AoL ended with an unresolved debate and the unfixed Bore.

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The problem in AOL was the highest most smartest man of the age had a clearly flawed plan. Trying to repair the bore by laying a patch on it using the one power was only going to exacarbate the issue. Unfortunately no one else had a better plan then. The forces of light were getting beaten down. The choedan kal which would have given the Aes sedai some respite and time to come up with a perfect plan to seal the bore without any repercussions was lost to the shadow. It was do or die basically.

 

Latra's opposition basically was due to the pattern. She could have went ahead with LTT when the keys got lost but she still refused to consider LTT's plan right to the end. Once LTT made up his mind to go ahead without the women he achieved his original plan of ending the war but ofcourse he and alot of people paid a heavy price for it.

 

It was win some lose some situation

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I think actually the Strike is going to be a sort premonition of what really happens: Egwene and Rand will disagree, as Lews and Latra did, and they will both be right (the Strike was necessary, but the world was better because Latra opposed it and kept Saidar out). Somehow, by their disagreement, Rand and Egwene will arrive at the optimal solution, even if possibly they will resolve the argument and thereby solve the issue, while the AoL ended with an unresolved debate and the unfixed Bore.

 

Thanks for a positive outlook on the Egwene - Rand confrontation. It is nice to think of it like this. And I hope both end up doing something for the overall good of humanity.

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So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so.

I kept myself away from responding to most of the nonsense in this thread, but... Logain has a right to hold a grudge? Against women who stopped a False Dragon on the rampage, who had killed thousands of people and wrecked a country and was fated to go mad? How do you figure?

 

Whoa whoa whoa! Logain is a beloved, kick ass character. How dare you try and remind people how he rampaged a country side for his own personal glory just because he could. EGWENE is the power-hungry Tyrant here, not Logain. I swear, some people and their logic just cannot realize how much more important popularity due to confirmation biases is over any sort of logical comparisons....

 

Those who live in glass houses should not throw stones, particularly when Luckers has already given this topic his warning. Relentless strawmanning and ad hominem attacks are not the signs of a good argument.

 

Straw-manning would suggest that I am purposely misrepresenting your point of view in order to denounce it more easily. But I promise you, they're usually easy enough to denounce the way they are. As for Ad hominem attacks, I don't attack the people making the claims, I attack the arguments and premises themselves... most of the time. I can slip now and then I admit, but it's quite rare. See, ad hominem does not just mean "being mean/harsh/jerkish".

 

For example, if I said "That is wrong because you are stupid". That would be an ad hominem attack. But I would actually say something more like, "That idea is stupid/retarded because...<insert reason here>". If you then assume I'm calling the person retarded, well that's your own fault. Even, "Well you'd be retarded to think <insert logical ridiculousness here>" is not ad hominem, because the attack is on the premise or argument that follows, not the person. So while you may think the language or tone is uncalled for, it's not logically fallacious. The logic is still sound as long as my premises are correct. And you are more than welcome to argue my premises if you have a problem with them.

 

Really, complaining about the tone I use when I make arguments and disqualifying me from the discussion based on that is just about textbook ad hominem. The way I present does not invalidate the argument. If you choose not to engage in a discussion due to my tone or style, that's your choice, but don't try to rationalize me away personally while at the same time claiming _I'M_ the one burning effigies.

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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In the AoL this person blocked the desires of the Dragon, leading to the taint and the breaking of the world.

 

No she didn't. LTT's plan was flawed and LPD ended up being correct in thinking the plan was too dangerous. RJ said the only difference if the females had been involved is Saidar would have been tainted as well. The fact that the females hled out is the only way the world survived the breaking and yes I think it is entirely plausible that the pattern played a role in that.

 

I think actually the Strike is going to be a sort premonition of what really happens: Egwene and Rand will disagree, as Lews and Latra did, and they will both be right (the Strike was necessary, but the world was better because Latra opposed it and kept Saidar out). Somehow, by their disagreement, Rand and Egwene will arrive at the optimal solution, even if possibly they will resolve the argument and thereby solve the issue, while the AoL ended with an unresolved debate and the unfixed Bore.

 

nicely and concisely said. This is how I hope it will go in the end, that all paths of all major characters and not a few miinor, lead to the end game and a win for the good guys.

 

Now lets hope the authors are on board as well :rolleyes:

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Whoa. Whoa. WHOA! How can Rand, or the BT be to BLAME for bonding AS? If anything, they should be thanked that they didn't just kill all the Aes Sedai that came to murder them all. Come on now. Bonding in self defense vs killing them as they had every right too.

 

It's another example of what's wrong with Eggy. AS went to murder dozens of men, and they captured them instead, and she blames the men. BS.

 

Where did you get the idea that Rand was to be "blamed" for it? The previous quotes differentiate between responsibility for an action (good or bad action) and blame. No one is blaming Rand for the bonded Aes Sedai; it is just that he has taken responsibility for this action; and we know that he shoulders the ultimate responsibility for the actions of his men.

 

Eggy was blaming Rand. She did blame him specifically in fact.

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Whoa. Whoa. WHOA! How can Rand, or the BT be to BLAME for bonding AS? If anything, they should be thanked that they didn't just kill all the Aes Sedai that came to murder them all. Come on now. Bonding in self defense vs killing them as they had every right too.

 

It's another example of what's wrong with Eggy. AS went to murder dozens of men, and they captured them instead, and she blames the men. BS.

 

Where did you get the idea that Rand was to be "blamed" for it? The previous quotes differentiate between responsibility for an action (good or bad action) and blame. No one is blaming Rand for the bonded Aes Sedai; it is just that he has taken responsibility for this action; and we know that he shoulders the ultimate responsibility for the actions of his men.

 

Eggy was blaming Rand. She did blame him specifically in fact.

 

But you kind of forget that the Aes Sedai were not sent there to murder them in the first place ...

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Whoa. Whoa. WHOA! How can Rand, or the BT be to BLAME for bonding AS? If anything, they should be thanked that they didn't just kill all the Aes Sedai that came to murder them all. Come on now. Bonding in self defense vs killing them as they had every right too.

 

It's another example of what's wrong with Eggy. AS went to murder dozens of men, and they captured them instead, and she blames the men. BS.

 

Where did you get the idea that Rand was to be "blamed" for it? The previous quotes differentiate between responsibility for an action (good or bad action) and blame. No one is blaming Rand for the bonded Aes Sedai; it is just that he has taken responsibility for this action; and we know that he shoulders the ultimate responsibility for the actions of his men.

 

Eggy was blaming Rand. She did blame him specifically in fact.

 

But you kind of forget that the Aes Sedai were not sent there to murder them in the first place ...

 

The ones Elaida sent to the BT? Yes their orders were to kill every man who could channel.

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So what if Logain is holding grudges? It's his right to do so.

I kept myself away from responding to most of the nonsense in this thread, but... Logain has a right to hold a grudge? Against women who stopped a False Dragon on the rampage, who had killed thousands of people and wrecked a country and was fated to go mad? How do you figure?

 

Whoa whoa whoa! Logain is a beloved, kick ass character. How dare you try and remind people how he rampaged a country side for his own personal glory just because he could. EGWENE is the power-hungry Tyrant here, not Logain. I swear, some people and their logic just cannot realize how much more important popularity due to confirmation biases is over any sort of logical comparisons....

 

Well technically, he thought he was the Dragon Reborn right? Like Taim said, if he had turned out to be the Dragon, all that Rampaging woul dhave been forgiven. If Rand was suddenly proven to be a False Dragon (I know, won't happen) wouldn't all the stuff he did seem more sinister?

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Whoa. Whoa. WHOA! How can Rand, or the BT be to BLAME for bonding AS? If anything, they should be thanked that they didn't just kill all the Aes Sedai that came to murder them all. Come on now. Bonding in self defense vs killing them as they had every right too.

 

It's another example of what's wrong with Eggy. AS went to murder dozens of men, and they captured them instead, and she blames the men. BS.

 

Where did you get the idea that Rand was to be "blamed" for it? The previous quotes differentiate between responsibility for an action (good or bad action) and blame. No one is blaming Rand for the bonded Aes Sedai; it is just that he has taken responsibility for this action; and we know that he shoulders the ultimate responsibility for the actions of his men.

 

Eggy was blaming Rand. She did blame him specifically in fact.

 

But you kind of forget that the Aes Sedai were not sent there to murder them in the first place ...

 

No. They were sent there with orders to Gentle and Hang every man there. In fact, they were told ot hang men who couldn't channel if they tried to defend the others. Murdering innocents, fun huh.

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Well technically, he thought he was the Dragon Reborn right? Like Taim said, if he had turned out to be the Dragon, all that Rampaging woul dhave been forgiven. If Rand was suddenly proven to be a False Dragon (I know, won't happen) wouldn't all the stuff he did seem more sinister?

 

So that obsolves him of his crimes? Murdering innocents, fun huh.

Edited by Suttree

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Did Logain in fact murder innocents? Or did he just kill those that fought against him? There is a slight difference, but I don't remember reading about him killing innocents just walking the streets or fleeing. Of course there are casualties, but those are usually caused by both sides.

 

Having said that, I agree with Suttree that it doesn't absolve him of his crimes. But nor do I think he should be condemned for them. Same goes for Rand. But seeing as he is sacrificing himself as the true Dragon, I think he is paying his debt.

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Did Logain in fact murder innocents? Or did he just kill those that fought against him? There is a slight difference, but I don't remember reading about him killing innocents just walking the streets or fleeing. Of course there are casualties, but those are usually caused by both sides.

 

Logain ignored the fact that he was a False Dragon, raised an army, started a war in Ghealdean and razed a path of destruction almost reaching Lugard on his way to Tear. There are no two sides, he declared war on every area he passed through. You are kidding yourself if you think innocents were not hurt during a march like that. There is a reason "half the known world had trembled at the name of Logain".

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Logain ignored the fact that he was a False Dragon, raised an army, started a war in Ghealdean and razed a path of destruction almost reaching Lugard on his way to Tear. There are no two sides, he declared war on every area he passed through. You are kidding yourself if you think innocents were not hurt during a march like that. There is a reason "half the known world had trembled at the name of Logain".

That's wrong. Ignore the fact? It was not fact he was a false Dragon until Rand proclaimed himself. Remember Rand was pushed by Moiraine, Siuan, and Verin to proclaim himself as the Dragon. What if Logain was pushed the same way by other Aes Sedai? Remember not even Mo and Siu were absolutely certain Rand was the Dragon until he took Callandor. That's why Siuan didn't attempt her move to proclaim her support for him until then. As someone else already said, if Rand turned out to be a false Dragon, the same things would be said about him as Logain.

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Did Logain in fact murder innocents? Or did he just kill those that fought against him? There is a slight difference, but I don't remember reading about him killing innocents just walking the streets or fleeing. Of course there are casualties, but those are usually caused by both sides.

 

Logain ignored the fact that he was a False Dragon, raised an army, started a war in Ghealdean and razed a path of destruction almost reaching Lugard on his way to Tear. There are no two sides, he declared war on every area he passed through. You are kidding yourself if you think innocents were not hurt during a march like that. There is a reason "half the known world had trembled at the name of Logain".

 

He was only proven false when he was captured and brought to the WT and gentled. Until that time he was the Dragon for all intents and purposes.

 

As said before I remember someone in the books saying that the pattern would continue to spin out False Dragons until the true DR was proclaimed. Logain, from his point of view, was the Dragon...... at least until he was captured and gentled. This does not forgive what has happened, but the victors write history. Until he was not, he was the Dragon.

 

I never get the impression that any of the false dragons woke one day and said today I declare myself a false dragon and will terrorise the world and its people. I more get the impression that they become the fasle dragon because of, well, the Pattern. From reading it seems that if the Pattern has a need, it will create that which will fulfill that need. If the Dragon Reborn is needed, but not forthcoming for some reason, it will take those that are close to what it needs and they will, for a time, become a False Dragon to drive the Pattern forward.

 

Circular logic I know, but it is the Wheel of Time after all

 

I find it interesting that the character of Logain was said to strike fear in the hearts of men, but very little has been written of his atrocities, and those that meet him are taken by his character, charisma and bearing. A marked contrast in the perception we are given of Taim, for whom we have first hand reactions from those who hate him for the atrocities he has done.

 

I think the fear of Logain is more impersonal, the fear all have of a conquerors and world shakers, those who have the power of life or death over you, while the fear of Taim is more personal, the fear of something monstrous that has crept into the room while you were not looking, that wrongness at the corner of your eye that makes the hair on your neck stand up.

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You both are forgetting one little thing. Logain was proven false the minute he was not born on DM. That disqualified him from the start and he knew the phrophecies. His motivations were fame and glory.

 

To wookie's point, Rand's soul is CoL, time after time, age after age. It's not as if the pattern was waiting to see which one of them was the better fit.

 

 

 

"Neither of them is the one, Siuan. The Pattern does not demand a Dragon, but the one true Dragon. Until he proclaims himself, the Pattern will continue to throw up false Dragons, but after that there will be no others. If Logain or the other were the one, there would be no others." '
Edited by Suttree

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Do we know he knew the prophecies when he declared himself? Does it actually tell where he is born? Perhaps his mother walking to or from Tar Valon and went into labor right near DM or something and his parents never told anyone but him. There is a lot we don't know about Logain's past, so you can't say for certain.

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Do we know he knew the prophecies when he declared himself? Does it actually tell where he is born? Perhaps his mother walking to or from Tar Valon and went into labor right near DM or something and his parents never told anyone but him.

 

He is a noble from Gheldean with nothing unusual in the books made of his birth. A noble lady happened to be strolling by DM during her pregnancy?

 

Com on, you are seriously stretching. How about if I say this Logain "most likely" knew certain prophecies didn't apply to him. His motivation was glory and this is reinforced by all we know of him.

Edited by Suttree

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It very well could be true. I'm not saying that what you said was false, just that it hasn't been 100% confirmed yet. Maybe his mother had business at the tower or something and was on her way back when she went into labor. I know it's stretching, I don't really believe it myself, just listing some of the possibilities. But as someone said, he most likely didn't just wake up one morning and decided to declare himself Dragon, there were probably other factors involved. I know Siuan and them made up the bit about the Red Ajah, but what if it wasn't far from the truth and they just didn't know it?

Edited by Edynol

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You both are forgetting one little thing. Logain was proven false the minute he was not born on DM. That disqualified him from the start and he knew the phrophecies. His motivations were fame and glory.

 

To wookie's point, Rand's soul is CoL, time after time, age after age. It's not as if the pattern was waiting to see which one of them was the better fit.

 

 

 

"Neither of them is the one, Siuan. The Pattern does not demand a Dragon, but the one true Dragon. Until he proclaims himself, the Pattern will continue to throw up false Dragons, but after that there will be no others. If Logain or the other were the one, there would be no others." '

 

Yes, the Pattern throws up false dragons, but do the false dragons realize they are false? I don't know and don't believe the books really address this.

 

Regarding prophecy, how many are there? It seems that there are at least three disparate versions mentioned in the books, the ones followed by the WT/Randland, the Seanchan and the ones followed by the Shadow. Could there not be more, or could they not be garbled in telling and translation? Considering this, and Taim's conviction that if he had "won out" then he would have been proclaimed born on DM with hosanna's sung by thousands I am not sure that prophecy is as firmly followed as we, as readers, assume.

 

And this brings us back to determinism again. The Pattern demands and people respond to that demand. I think they have no volition in this aspect.

 

I do think, however, the tone of their response is individualistic. Logain was and is a commanding, charismatic leader, probably more than a little pompous and not humble to any extent. But, due to the reactions of people to him in general I do not believe he was ever cruel or prone to slaughter for the sake of slaughter. Those who meet him now as a lieutenant to the True Dragon seem to perceive him as having a presence, not cruel but demanding, dominating a room when he enters. Similar words have been used to describe Gareth Bryne, Davram Bashere and Pedron Naile. People to be respected, and, if not on your side, feared.

 

What you bring to what is demanded is where the individual lies. You do the same things over and over as your soul is spun out of the WoT, but each time you are different and bring a different approach to what you have to do to fulfill your place in the pattern. I think that each time Taim or Logain or Davram or whomever you wish is turned out they play a similar part, but each time they approach it differently. If this were not true then there would be no need to do anything, all would be determined and no change would ever occur, leaving us with a tale that once told would never change, sort of like reruns of Leave It To Beaver

 

Now, back to the topic of this thread, how about that Amyrilin Seat :rolleyes:

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Considering this, and Taim's conviction that if he had "won out" then he would have been proclaimed born on DM with hosanna's sung by thousands I am not sure that prophecy is as firmly followed as we, as readers, assume.

 

Based on all info in text and and RJ's quotes Taim was absolutely wrong about this...

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