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DRAGONMOUNT

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Avi or Elayne certainly gave it to Rand, probably around his visit to Elayne in Caemlin.

Actually, they most certainly did not. Rand was last in Caemlyn in WH's A Lily in Winter (my personal favorite chapter, perhaps, though not much happened in it). Aviendha told Elayne what the dull knife does and left it with her in KoD's A Different Skill.

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What's up with the totally stupid dancing pose Rand is in? Ruins the cover for me. Wasn't expecting to say this, but I think the Sweet cover would have been better.

Edited by MyKillK
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Terez, as is your want, your focus, though tightly refined, is too narrow. You keep refering to the word 'dawn' as a noun, but the word is also a verb.

 

It's the word 'day' that tightens the focus, not the part of speech.

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I thought he was holding Callandor, Justice and the Dragon Scepter, not the invisible ter'angreal. Besides, we all know women in this series wouldn't give anything to a man for any reason.

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I thought he was holding Callandor, Justice and the Dragon Scepter, not the invisible ter'angreal. Besides, we all know women in this series wouldn't give anything to a man for any reason.

 

The Dragon Sceptre got obliterated courtesy of Semirhage

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If it is anything important and not just something to make the drawing cooler (which I don't think, it is pretty conspicuous) it is the Dreamspike, or failing that, something that we do not know about, perhaps one of the ter'angreals we see randomly, but never know what they are used for.

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perhaps the one ter'angreal in the WT which is important to Rand, remember Nynaeve and Elayne search for the Bowl of Winds took them first to the WT and they wanted to help Rand somehow, so it could be that too :p

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I think it all depends on whether or not he's already died at this point. There are of course hints that the Callandor thing might be disastrous (which is not to say that it's not supposed to happen, whatever it is). It's hard to see Aviendha letting him go off to Shayol Ghul without that knife, but we don't know when she will get back and if she'll get back in time for Merrilor and Rand leaving. So, if this is Rand about to die, I'm guessing it's unlikely that the dagger is the ter'angreal. If Rand has already died and been resurrected, then it's probably the ter'angreal.

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Anyone think the pose implies callandor will be used like a shield? A light into darkness kind of thing? with an eclipes taking away the sun's light and the sinificance of sun in ToM it could be the memory of light he needs to fight through to the pit of doom(darkness).

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There is also the problem of her forgetting it. I mean, you wouldn't think that something so unique would be forgotten, but she analysed many ter'angreal, and it would not be foremost in her mind at the moment, having just seen the annihilation of her people.

 

Perhaps Rand dying, or a failed attempt to enter Shayol Ghul secretly makes her remember. I think we have enough evidence to make a reasonable guess that something will occur to seriously hurt the light. (the ToM Dark prophecy has two little snippets, the Broken Wolf being consumed to bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and the line "and bring us Darkness so beautiful." ) I wont speculate what these two events actually refer to, but they definitely indicate that SOMETHING will go in the Shadow's favour.

 

Something like that would certainly jog her memory about the dagger (well, you would hope).

 

I don't know, just throwing stuff out there.

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

Anyone think the pose implies callandor will be used like a shield? A light into darkness kind of thing? with an eclipes taking away the sun's light and the sinificance of sun in ToM it could be the memory of light he needs to fight through to the pit of doom(darkness).

 

 

Ha, maybe RJ was having us on and Callandor's importance is a big red herring, all it is important for is to light up the Pit of Doom so Rand doesn't slip and fall into the pit of lava.

 

But seriously, it is possible, although Callandor has metaphorical darkness surrounding it, as per Min's viewing, Callandor's obscurities have a sinister cast to them, not exactly the "Light against Darkness" type thing. Although I can see that it may be so, but I thought the "Light" of Callandor was merely "light", all powerful sa'angreal glow when they are used. (Well, the CK and Vora's Flute do anyway)

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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For those of you who haven't heard my theory on it before, I've argued that it could be fulfilled if Rand were balefired, seeing as how he is one with the land. It's the only way I could think of for a literal twice-dawning day to happen in a way that is properly foreshadowed.

 

I'm familiar with your theory, the only real plausibility issue I have is that if Rand were balefired there would be no body left behind, which would be problematic to justify alongside the various viewings/dreams/etc that all describe Rand's body together with Elayne, Min and Aviendha -- not to mention the scene illustrated in Sweet's draft cover. Unless he dies again at Shayol Ghul after coming back from the dead? That'd be hard to swallow. Good attempt at a literal explanation though, your theory requires much less suspension of disbelief than, say, the pattern skipping due to unravelling, causing the day to repeat itself (which was indeed pulled out of you-know-where).

 

The legend of Boann and the Dagda offers some mythological justification for stretching the meaning of 'day', but it's also suggestive of a difference in perception for Elayne and the rest of the world. The 'three days' thing further confuses the issue.

Brandon did say how much time AMoL covers depends on where you were in the world. This undoubtedly concerns at least in part different timelines in different storylines, but we do also have vacuoles and T'A'R as examples of time flowing at a different rate (and don't forget Hinderstap which was Something Else Entirely) so there could be something screwy happen with time during the period between death and rebirth. If we were generous, we could say Elayne's babies could be viable in maybe two months. I don't know that there's been that radical of a diffrence in time rates between T'A'R and the waking world shown for perhaps two months spent in the dream world being the equivalent of one day, so that would be a stretch. A vacuole could concievably cover two months within one "real-world" day but I can't imagine any reason Elayne would enter one, or would know how, or even learn of the existence of such a thing. Which leaves Something Else, Perhaps. I like the notion you're going for here.

 

I'd be tempted to say that 'for birth' referred to Rand except for the fact that Calian and Shivan are supposed to herald the new age with their birth. It's all too pat to ignore. I'm just saying, it seems like the eclipse would solve all the little prophetic problems, but I don't think it's quite that simple.

Oh I don't doubt that the "sun vanishing from the world" as described is unnatural, and will probably last for longer than an eclipse normally would and there will probably be something weird like it darkening the entire continent (which doesn't happen with natural solar eclipses); however it does solve the prophetic problems as you described them and additionally would be a terrifying phenomena for the people of the Westlands to witness of an age-ending type magnitude.

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I never considered that Light is Held before the Maw (KC, not Min's onyx-hand Viewing, which might apply to anything, really) might well refer to this exact moment. If this is so, it does put into question whether Rand has already died. If we could trust DKS's depiction to be accurate, I'd say it has to be, since his pier seemed to have been near Dragonmount's slopes. Alas, I don't think we can.

 

PS

Vora's sa'angreal is fluted, but I don't think it's a flute :wink:

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There is also the problem of her forgetting it. I mean, you wouldn't think that something so unique would be forgotten, but she analysed many ter'angreal, and it would not be foremost in her mind at the moment, having just seen the annihilation of her people.

 

I somehow doubt she forgot it. I think she realized the implications of her finding such a thing right off the bat. Her obsession with it was how Elayne discovered her talent:

 

Aviendha found a dagger with gold wire wrapped around a hilt of rough deerhorn; the blade was dull, and by all evidence, always had been. She kept turning that over and over in her fingers – her hands actually began to tremble – until Elayne took it away from her and put it with the others on the cistern’s lid. Even then Aviendha stood for a time, looking at it and licking her lips as though they had gone dry.

 

As Sephanie began fastening her buttons, Aviendha fondled something she had retrieved from her belt pouch, a small dagger with a rough hilt of deerhorn wrapped in gold wire. It was also a ter’angreal, though Elayne had not been able to puzzle out what it did before pregnancy forced a halt to such studies. She had not known her sister was carrying the thing. Aviendha’s eyes were almost dreamy as she stared at it.

 

“Why does that fascinate you so?” Elayne asked. This was not the first time she had seen the other woman absorbed in that knife.

 

Aviendha gave a start and blinked at the dagger in her hands. The iron blade—it looked like iron, at least, and felt almost like iron—had never been sharpened so far as Elayne could tell and was little longer than her palm, though wide in proportion. Even the point was too blunt for stabbing. “I thought to give it to you, but you never said anything about it, so I thought I might be wrong, and then we would believe you were safe, from some dangers at least, when you were not. So I decided to keep it. That way, if I am right, at least I could protect you, and if I am wrong, it does no harm.”

 

Elayne shook her towel-wrapped head in confusion. “Right about what? What are you talking about?”

 

“This,” Aviendha said, holding up the dagger. “I think that if you have this in your possession, the Shadow cannot see you. Not the Eyeless or the Shadowtwisted, maybe not even Leafblighter. Except that I must be wrong if you did not see it.”

 

Sephanie gasped, her hands going still until Essande murmured a soft admonition. Essande had lived too long to be shaken by mere mention of the Shadow. Or much else, for that matter.

 

Elayne stared. She had tried teaching Aviendha to make ter’angreal, but her sister possessed not a scrap of facility there. Yet perhaps she had a different skill, maybe even one that could be called a Talent.

 

All indications from the rest of the passage are that Aviendha considered the dagger her personal property, and took it with her when she left. I don't recall any mention of it in TGS or TOM, but I find it very hard to believe that she forgot it. The dagger makes her react that way not because it protects her from the Shadow (though it does, for the time being) but because it will protect Rand when the time comes. She probably planned to give it to him after she came back to him as an equal.

 

This does make me wonder whether the mountain in Sweet's draft is actually Shayol Ghul. It could be Dragonmount. I don't know that it means anything, but some of the armor at the bottom of the DKS draft is red and green. It would make things a lot more logical if it were outside Tar Valon, for many reasons including legendary ones. And I really like the idea of Rand having already jumped the hurdle of death and resurrection by the time he goes to Shayol Ghul. While there are definitely some dark things going on with Callandor, I still think some of those prophecies are actually about Justice, and not as perilous as they appear to be. And the fist of onyx could well be behind his back. It's hidden in all the drafts, which means that detail was higher on the importance chain than even the eclipse (apparently only added in the last draft).

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All indications from the rest of the passage are that Aviendha considered the dagger her personal property, and took it with her when she left. I don't recall any mention of it in TGS or TOM, but I find it very hard to believe that she forgot it. The dagger makes her react that way not because it protects her from the Shadow (though it does, for the time being) but because it will protect Rand when the time comes. She probably planned to give it to him after she came back to him as an equal.

 

 

Elayne has possession of the dagger. Aviendha gave it to Elayne, who then gave her the amber turtle angreal and twisted ring dream ter'angreal.

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Ah, you're right. I didn't read quite far enough in that passage...but one thing that bothers me is that Elayne didn't seem to comprehend the significance of it. In any case, I get more convinced by the minute that the mountain in the DKS draft is Dragonmount.

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Ah, you're right. I didn't read quite far enough in that passage...but one thing that bothers me is that Elayne didn't seem to comprehend the significance of it. In any case, I get more convinced by the minute that the mountain in the DKS draft is Dragonmount.

I agree that Elayne didn't really take much interest in the dagger, kind of odd, and AFAIK it hasn't been brought up since. For that matter, neither has the library ter'angreal and one would think she would want to at least see if there's any information on the making of ter'angreal in there.

 

About the mountain -- it does seem out of place for it to be SG but with DKS it can be hard to say. For one, SG is supposed to be surrounded by barren wasteland, not grassland and coniferous forest, but DKS always did take advantage of artistic license, so no telling. I will never forget the blue breeches Moiraine is wearing on his NS cover.

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Edit: ahhh, I didn't see the replies. It makes sense, I thought it would be kinda lame Avi just handing Rand the knife with no problems if it is so important. (Although, you could say this is exactly what happened with Justice, but I think it is different situation, since we are not "supposed" to know what importance it holds yet.)

 

It makes it more interesting, something that I was going to post originally was that this would be one of the reasons for Rand to go to Caemlyn. Avi would think of the ter'angreal and she obviously thinks it is important, and so Rand goes to fetch it. Then the whole dying in Caemlyn part comes together just a little bit more (not that it was impossible before, just adding more to the possibility)

 

I know what you mean about the "mountain" in the DKS cover. It doesn't really look like SG, and Rand wouldn't be at the "peak" to shed his blood, if he does it at the Pit of Doom, and from my recollection, it isn't really a "peak". Dragonmount is more suited, and it would explain the grass etc.. Rather than having to assume SG and the surroundings somehow healed up instantly.

 

The blood got me though, I have to admit, and I don't see how it could be any other. After all, it was only a draft, and it is not like DKS' drafts are known for their accuracy (like Mat's golden Shovelandarei on the ToM cover).

 

But I will again, now that i look more closely, have to revise my stance and say that Dragonmount is a possibility. The AS symbol near Tar Valon is fitting, and it is a fitting resting place for Rand's body. In fact, it makes more sense really. Why would they want to set up a bier in the Blight near SG? It would be much more fitting do do it in sight of the AS headquarters and Dragonmount where he was born.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I'm thinking Tar Valon is more likely than Caemlyn or the Black Tower. Partly because Tar Valon is itself a Camlann parallel, and partly because I'm pretty sure his death will be Gawynish, but the fact remains that the Seanchan are a huge missing piece of the Merrilor equation. And we know they plan on attacking Tar Valon. And I've thought for a long time that the truce would not be achieved until after Rand's death, because I think that's one of the things they have to figure out how to do without him. And that's where Mat comes in, and where I think Egwene's most important part will be, after Rand gets rid of Gawyn for her. :wink:

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I'm thinking Tar Valon is more likely than Caemlyn or the Black Tower. Partly because Tar Valon is itself a Camlann parallel, and partly because I'm pretty sure his death will be Gawynish, but the fact remains that the Seanchan are a huge missing piece of the Merrilor equation. And we know they plan on attacking Tar Valon. And I've thought for a long time that the truce would not be achieved until after Rand's death, because I think that's one of the things they have to figure out how to do without him. And that's where Mat comes in, and where I think Egwene's most important part will be, after Rand gets rid of Gawyn for her. :wink:

 

Ahh indeed, I did mention this in another thread (about Rand going to Tar Valon instead of Caemlyn/BT) Although I didn't develop it as you have. I think he would want to make up for his Seanchan-truce-gone-wrong, like he has with everything else.

 

I like it, I am still not fully on board with the Gawyn killing Rand yet, but damn, I am growing to see things your way.

 

Edit: Haha, it may be for the "greater good" for Egwene to be rid of Gawyn, I somehow don't think she would agree. I would like to see it though, not Egwene being all depressed, but something for the Light to overcome, the Amyrlin struggling to remain strong as a leader of the Light

 

Last edit, I promise, but I just thought of something: Brandon's GRRM-esque scene = Egwene executing Gawyn. It would be awesome, because, no matter your opinion of her, RESPECT, having the guts to carry out the execution, and want to bathe, well, she kills her warder.

 

This is the scene I am refering to from Book 1: Game of Thrones

 

 

Right at the very beginning, when Ned cuts off the deserter's head. The parallels being the obvious, an execution, killing someone who is not particularly evil, but laws are laws, and carrying out the execution yourself if you condemn them.

 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Right, we know some Lightsiders have to die, and Gawyn seems a prime target. Egwene having to suffer his death would make some people happy, so it's a bit of fanservice (and also a bit of ex-girlfriend revenge, which RJ is a little bit into). But I still think it's Gawyn's body on the pyre. :tongue: Tar Valon is a Camlann parallel because the word 'camlann' means a crooked river bank. Caemlyn is not on a river.

 

Also, someone pointed out at rafo.com that Rand's hand might be hidden because he's already been ripped out at this point and has both hands. Dunno why that didn't occur to me. I guess because I started out thinking (because of the Callandor red herrings) that this was before death and resurrection.

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I do think we saw the dull knife again after A Different Skill. In Elayne's valuables' box, when she picks out something else, or something like that. I'm not sure when or where, just that I recall being frustrated that she didn't think it important enough to merit keeping it on her person.

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'He who is dead yet lives'.

 

I don't think he's been ripped out at all. I think he's certainly dead, helped by Alivia, and this scene is taking place in T'A'R, which he has forced to reconnect to SG, because he can approach the DO undetected from there perhaps. Nynaeve went in to T'A'R not to remove him but (with Moiraine) to join him.

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lol. (Also, it can't be reached from Tel'aran'rhiod because it's part of a separate universe.)

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