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But you'd think an angreal would be made so as not to slip off under any circumstances?

 

indeed, i would agree it probably snugs itself up like an adam would...but if thats your tie to strength you might instinctively hold on tight to it, but that was my little tangent lol really i think she is just gripping the cloak so it doesnt go all crazy around her, if her cloak was flapping out way behind her it would be more dramatic looking than rands pose, and it would appear as though she has absolutely no concern about being where she is...instead she is sort of huddling inside her cloak, almost like a safety blanket lol you know what kind of makes me wonder, is what is the timeline of this scene, because between nyneave and moiraine being there, what is lan up to? i would expect him to be there, so is he dead at this point? or did they leave him to his own devices? or is he somewhere a little safer?

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Indeed, makes sense.

 

I think the theme of cooperation is too big though.

 

I would be disappointed if, when all of the balance and cooperation between men and women have been promoted that it ends up two women decide to help out.

 

Besides, the Seals are the only matter Egwene opposes Rand on. Once the Seals are broken, the point will be moot and Egwene will help out.

 

In fact, she proves less difficult than Latra, as she expect Rand to Seal the DO away again as per prophecy, whereas Latra had no such insurance for LTT.

 

I cannot see Egwene opposing Rand after the Seals are broken. She doesn't know what would be dangerous or what would be good concerning the re-sealing.

 

Yea, that last part is a really good point. And the seals are gonna end up broke one way or another.

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Indeed, makes sense.

 

I think the theme of cooperation is too big though.

 

I would be disappointed if, when all of the balance and cooperation between men and women have been promoted that it ends up two women decide to help out.

 

Besides, the Seals are the only matter Egwene opposes Rand on. Once the Seals are broken, the point will be moot and Egwene will help out.

 

In fact, she proves less difficult than Latra, as she expect Rand to Seal the DO away again as per prophecy, whereas Latra had no such insurance for LTT.

 

I cannot see Egwene opposing Rand after the Seals are broken. She doesn't know what would be dangerous or what would be good concerning the re-sealing.

The AS are planning to Take Control of the forces of Light. In ToM that was what the focus of every AS chapter not dealing with Nyn's test and the hunt for Messana was focusing on. Right now, Egwene and all other AS feel Rand is wrong for wanting to break the seals. Once he does she will be, "he is a madman who will doom us all! Join us and we will guide him right."

 

Nyn and Mo are the only AS who believe he has a pretty good idea about what he's doing and has good reasons.

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It actually gets dark enough to see stars...

 

really: the moment the eclips turned from a sliver to full it instantly turned pitch dark. We could see the edge of the darkness move away from us to the horizon. (I stood on a hill near the town of juniville in northern France).

 

Yeah that's my point, there's still a bit of light but it's all on the edge of absolute darkness.

 

Look at 4:07 on this video, during totality:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBIyYCdwX1k&feature=related

 

There's light along the horizon coming from the atmosphere that is not beneath the moon's shadow. And it only lasts a moment.

Edited by A. Pseudonym
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Stupid piece of film: it doesn't look as beautiful on film as it does when you see it with your own eyes. That corona and after that, the first light... so impressive!

But I understand what you mean. During the eclips that I saw there was about a minute that no light was seen on the horizon. I think the above video was shot at the edge of the band of full eclipse (so that light was still near).

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And yet, all the signs point to Rand+Callandor+Shayol Ghul being disastrous, and Egwene/Gawyn having to kill him because of that disaster.

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And yet, all the signs point to Rand+Callandor+Shayol Ghul being disastrous, and Egwene/Gawyn having to kill him because of that disaster.

 

I think most of the readers are in for a big shock regarding the Seals. Not that Rand is completely wrong about the issue, but that Egwene isn't wrong either.

 

I think when he goes to SG, Moridin will attempt to seize control of his body through Callandor (all that he is will be seized). Rand will barely escape, and he will be struggling to hold Moridin at bay (similar to the madness in Egwene's test) and Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve and Gawyn will come up with a plan to "kill" him then resurrect him from TAR. This also fulfils the death of the "Broken Wolf" when the First Among Vermins breaks the Seals, and also explains what "whom Death has known" means. The Dark One's cloak will fall on the world (causing Darkness), and the world will indeed despair. This also fits neatly with Egwene's Dream of a man who's dying, but on his living rests the fate of the world, but people otuside are already mourning/rejoicing at his death. Alivia will also play a role in this, I think. Plus, the three on a boat prophesy also ends up coming true this way.

 

Essentially, Breaking the Seals will be a huge disaster as Egwene's Dream indicates. But its consequences will catalyze a secret plan from the Light that ends up saving the day.

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Yeah, I'm unsure to what extent Egwene and Nynaeve will work together. It does seem to make sense that Moiraine and Nynaeve would be the only Aes Sedai to go against Egwene and side with Rand. Aside from the fact that he trusts them, they're just about the only Aes Sedai who really trust him. And neither Nynaeve/Moiraine or Egwene are precisely wrong for taking their respective positions. Elayne seems mostly out of it because she's pregnant, but if it comes down to it I doubt she will really defy Rand.

 

I'm still a little iffy on a few things. I think there are a few different ways that the Shadow can gain control of Rand at this point, and while the link with Moridin seems to fit the prophecies the best, I wonder what sort of role Callandor really plays in that. Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be foreshadowed very well from a technical standpoint, unless you want to argue that Callandor is what weakened Rand to Ishamael's assault in TDR. Most argue that it was done with Tel'aran'rhiod (or the True Power), and Rand certainly seems to have used Tel'aran'rhiod to fight it off.

Edited by Terez
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Some good ones have been mentioned. "The Shadow At Noon" is another good one, and perhaps the most thematically appropriate of the suggestions along those lines (Once For Mourning, Twice Dawns the Day, etc.)

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Yeah, I'm unsure to what extent Egwene and Nynaeve will work together. It does seem to make sense that Moiraine and Nynaeve would be the only Aes Sedai to go against Egwene and side with Rand. Aside from the fact that he trusts them, they're just about the only Aes Sedai who really trust him. And neither Nynaeve/Moiraine or Egwene are precisely wrong for taking their respective positions. Elayne seems mostly out of it because she's pregnant, but if it comes down to it I doubt she will really defy Rand.

 

I'm still a little iffy on a few things. I think there are a few different ways that the Shadow can gain control of Rand at this point, and while the link with Moridin seems to fit the prophecies the best, I wonder what sort of role Callandor really plays in that. Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to be foreshadowed very well from a technical standpoint, unless you want to argue that Callandor is what weakened Rand to Ishamael's assault in TDR. Most argue that it was done with Tel'aran'rhiod (or the True Power), and Rand certainly seems to have used Tel'aran'rhiod to fight it off.

I don't really see a huge face-off between Egwene and Rand anyway. They'll disagree, Moiraine will meadiate to keep it from boiling over, and eventually, the two of them are going to have to work together.

 

As for Callandor, I think what it does is make its user open to mental attacks, be it the taint, or something else. I think the "taint magnification" is a side effect of this flaw, but Caduane didn't know that. So, when Rand weilds Callandor in SG, he'll be more open to Moridin seizing his mind, and Nynaeve will barely be able to save him and get him off from there.

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I don't think anything should be implied by Rands missing hand, we have been told previously that he has developed the habit of holding that arm behind himself since he lost the hand. No way to know if it's back, gone ,or replaced by Onyx.

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Funny, I just tweeted about that a few minutes ago. It's been confirmed that Whelan was just hiding his stump.

 

Also, I realized in my #wotrr that Ishamael tried to seize Rand's soul, or rip it away from his body, before he ever touched Callandor, and before they went to Tel'aran'rhiod.

Edited by Terez
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Has anyone else ever thought that "and all that he is can be seized" might be referring to the Dark One, I.E. through the True Power? The quote's exact subject is unclear IMO. I don't think Rand, The Dragon, or LTT is mentioned, or any other preceeding text is given in the book.

Edited by Edorion
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From a book-telling perspective it's probably safe to assume that any time an unspecified 'he' is used in the Prophecies of the Dragon, it's referring to the Dragon.

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That fits with the rules given; in 1m-1f, the man must lead.

 

Maybe this has something to do with the other flaw. In a circle of three a woman must lead but if the sword is "flawed" maybe the man needs to lead or can lead in a circle of 2 women and 1 man

Edited by Mai
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I dont think Mo and Nyn are the only Aes Sedai that Rand will have supporting him. Even if Egwene successfully gets all the other Aes Sedai to support her I believe Cad and the other Aes Sedai that are sworn to Rand will support him.

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When it comes to Callandor. Why doesn't Avi simply try and identify the object?

 

As for that 3rd object being a dreamspike. No way. That is in a dagger's sheath. No way you put a dreamspike in something like that.

 

0% chance in my mind of that being a dreamspike.

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When it comes to Callandor. Why doesn't Avi simply try and identify the object?

 

As for that 3rd object being a dreamspike. No way. That is in a dagger's sheath. No way you put a dreamspike in something like that.

 

0% chance in my mind of that being a dreamspike.

 

100% agree

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Also agreed, and as has been pointed out already, the dreamspike would be useless to him in the real world. There's a small chance that the TAR-like characteristics of Shayol Ghul would make it work, but it's a stretch, especially considering that it isn't described anything like a dagger.

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Aviendha has never had a chance to identify Callandor. Rand doesn't know she has the talent. Maybe she'll do it in AMoL. It would be classic if Rand's three women gather and discuss how their man has to fight the DO. Aviendha and Elayne give Min the last bit she needs to figure out Callandor. And that would put another perspective on why Rand needed to have three women!!!!

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Aviendha has never had a chance to identify Callandor. Rand doesn't know she has the talent. Maybe she'll do it in AMoL. It would be classic if Rand's three women gather and discuss how their man has to fight the DO. Aviendha and Elayne give Min the last bit she needs to figure out Callandor. And that would put another perspective on why Rand needed to have three women!!!!

 

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one".......

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Aviendha has never had a chance to identify Callandor. Rand doesn't know she has the talent. Maybe she'll do it in AMoL. It would be classic if Rand's three women gather and discuss how their man has to fight the DO. Aviendha and Elayne give Min the last bit she needs to figure out Callandor. And that would put another perspective on why Rand needed to have three women!!!!

 

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one".......

 

Does that refer to Rand's three women or to the circle of three needed for Callandor?

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When it comes to Callandor. Why doesn't Avi simply try and identify the object?

 

As for that 3rd object being a dreamspike. No way. That is in a dagger's sheath. No way you put a dreamspike in something like that.

 

0% chance in my mind of that being a dreamspike.

 

100% agree

Also agreed, and as has been pointed out already, the dreamspike would be useless to him in the real world. There's a small chance that the TAR-like characteristics of Shayol Ghul would make it work, but it's a stretch, especially considering that it isn't described anything like a dagger.

 

That little dagger is way too small to be 2 hands long as the Dreamspike is described. Remember that a hand is a standard measurement unit used against the height of horses. The dagger opposite Justice cannot possibly be 2 hands long, it is in proportion with Rand's hand holding Callandor.

 

However, if you zoom in on Justice, you can see another object which could be the Dreamspike above and behind it, it looks about 2 hands long, but it doesn't really have a mace like knob on the top, even though there is something at the bottom and it kind of looks twisted or woven as in Perrin's description. Any ideas?

 

I've zoomed and cropped pic, I just have to work out how to insert it, will update shortly. Edit: can't work it out, you'll have to zoom yourself or someone please tell me how to insert a pic. I don't have web pics at present. Do I have to?

Edited by YouMayCallMeElci
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