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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Official AMOL Cover Art (Spoilers)

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Ya I think Moiraine's trip to finnland has somthing to do with why she's there, PLus you have got to love the fact that Nynaeve hated Moiraine and wanted to protect Rand from Her, and now they are working together to keep him alive ......RJ you clever scallywag

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if I had to make a ranking based on willpower I would have to put both Nynaeve and Moraine near the top.

 

Keep in mind that one of them will have to be in control of the circle.

 

Not necessarily. Cadsuane said all that was necessary because of Callandor's flaws, but it has two flaws: 1) it lacks a buffer to keep you from drawing too much, and 2) it magnifies the taint. Circles have built-in buffers, so that's why the circle is necessary presumably, but I think that the whole 'two women with one in control' was about the taint being magnified, and the taint is gone. A circle of one woman and one man would take care of the buffer, but a man must control a circle of one man and one woman, which left the taint issue. Add another woman, and either a man or a woman can control the link.

Edited by Terez

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if I had to make a ranking based on willpower I would have to put both Nynaeve and Moraine near the top.

 

Keep in mind that one of them will have to be in control of the circle.

 

Not necessarily. Cadsuane said all that was necessary because of Callandor's flaws, but it has two flaws: 1) it lacks a buffer to keep you from drawing too much, and 2) it magnifies the taint. Circles have built-in buffers, so that's why the circle is necessary presumably, but I think that the whole 'two women with one in control' was about the taint being magnified, and the taint is gone. A circle of one woman and one man would take care of the buffer, but a man must control a circle of one man and one woman, which left the taint issue. Add another woman, and either a man or a woman can control the link.

oh I thought it was the other way around with 1 m 1 f either could control and 2 f and 1 m the women would have to contol and after that it could go either way

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In most cases, either a man or a woman can control the link - this is called leading, focusing, or guiding - but in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead. Excepting the examples given above, and other circles of thirteen or less, a woman must lead where the minimum number of men are present.

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I thought the choice was fairly obvious. Rand has already said he wants Nynaeve with him, and who else would be better to take to Shayol Ghul than Moiraine herself. She has devoted her life to Rand and opposing the DO.

 

Even if she doesn't have some du ex machina solution, (which I don't think she has, not directly related to the Sealing, more like an importance piece of the whole) I would have said she would be the obvious choice to take.

 

Sure, there are other Aes Sedai stronger and such, but Moiraine is like the Light mascot. You can't get any more anti-Shadow than Moiraine without using silly Whitecloak logic.

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Morsker, regarding spoilers, we typically open another board for spoilers when sample material begins to come out, such as the first couple of chapters or the prologue. Until we do so for AMoL, please keep the discussion to those very few topics already opened (regarding both covers, and the prologue PoV). Since this topic is already here, we're considering whether to keep it open or not (we'll have a decision soon, I hope, and until then I've marked it as spoilers).

 

Terez, do we know for certain that a link protects the one guiding the flows from drawing too deeply on the Source? I seem to recall we were only told that someone else, who isn't in control, can't be made to overdose on OP.

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Er.. Am I (not) seeing things.. or is Moiraine missing her right hand??

 

Edit: She could just be holding her cloak shut.. over what..?

Edited by FarShainMael

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In most cases, either a man or a woman can control the link - this is called leading, focusing, or guiding - but in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead. Excepting the examples given above, and other circles of thirteen or less, a woman must lead where the minimum number of men are present.

doesn;'t that mean one of the women must be in control?

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This isn't the only source we've got. The following is from a debate between Rahvin, Sammael, Lanfear and Graendal:

"If Rahvin trusts us enough to link when he must allow one of us to guide," the melodious voice said, "you can display an equal trust."

So Lanfear thinks that a man cannot lead a circle of three. I tend to trust her on that. Especially considering the rest don't object, so they must concur. I'm pretty sure we have other indications to that effect, as well.

 

Curiously, though, Graendal indicates that if they brought enough BA into the circle to take it past thirteen, one of the men would have to lead. I tend to think RJ wasn't completely sure which way he wanted to go with this. But a circle of two women and one man, central to the plot as it is, is hardly something he wouldn't be sure about.

Edited by yoniy0

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The whole concept of a circle and what is and is not possible has always been overly complicated to me.

 

When there is a single man in a circle less than 13, a woman must lead. That is the point I am getting. A man can lead a circle under 13 only if there is another or multiple men in a circle.

 

So 2 men 1 woman, a man could lead.

 

2 women 1 man, a woman must.

 

That is all I can make sense of on the subject, it has always confused me.

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In most cases, either a man or a woman can control the link - this is called leading, focusing, or guiding - but in the case of a circle of seventy-two, a circle of only one man and one woman, or in most circles of up to thirteen which contain more than one man, a man must lead. Excepting the examples given above, and other circles of thirteen or less, a woman must lead where the minimum number of men are present.

doesn;'t that mean one of the women must be in control?

 

No, because 'other circles of thirteen or less' are listed with the exceptions. At least, according to that passage. As to what yoniy0 posted later, the contradiction is not surprising because the LOC glossary originally had a contradiction on linking rules, and it was corrected later. RJ referred everyone to the BWB for the correct rules.

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What about the Cleansing of Saidin? Rand and Nyneave were connected in a 1-1 circle and Rand was leading the flows.

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That fits with the rules given; in 1m-1f, the man must lead.

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That's a clear cut -- it says right there that a man must lead a circle of one man and one woman. However, what I've always found curious is that Nynaeve actually formed the link -- she brought Rand in. Perhaps she wouldn't have been able to weave anything herself, but clearly Rand had no control either until she let him take the lead.

 

EDIT: ninja'ed by Terez. I would like to note that WH was well after ACoS, though.

Edited by yoniy0

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Yeah, that's always bothered me too, though we know that a woman has to initiate a link no matter who must lead it (hence why men cannot link without women, no doubt intended to balance the supposed inherent aggressiveness of men), so one might assume that Nynaeve had no more control over the flows than Rand did, and that he wouldn't have had to try very hard to take the link away from Nynaeve (hence her feeling like she'd had her skin ripped off, which was her fault for telling him to try as hard as he could).

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Hi. /wave.

 

I have a slightly looney theory on why it's Nyn and Mor with Rand. Could history be about to repeat itself? Depending on how deep the disagreement is between Egwene and Rand over the seals, I could see a scenario where Egwene does the same thing to him that happened to LTT. With her new alliance with the WOs and WFs, she might be able to deny Rand access to female channelers of suitable skill and/or strength for what he thinks he needs. Nyn and Moraine might be the only two who will defy her and help Rand. Especially if other possibilities were to die along the way, like Cadsuane and Alanna.

 

Not saying I really think it will happen that way, but I think it could. Maybe a 25% chance in my mind. Only real hole I see is unless they are all dead or unsuitable for some reason, you can argue that Rand can force any of the sisters sworn to him to do it.

 

I specifically didnt mention the even loonier Egwene=Latra Posae reborn theory, as I dont like that one even though this could piggyback onto it.

 

Morsker-I like your theory about healing Rands wound too. Dont forget that Moraine is also very talented at healing. That's the sort of thing that wouldnt be the reason they were brought though, at least I cant see that being Rand's plan. But ultimately that could be why the pattern needs it to be Nyn and Mor. there.

 

No need to be gentle because it's my first post :biggrin: . I've been lurking around WoT forums since they were on usenet.

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Egwene - Latra Posae I never liked. It doesn't fit, at least, not her playing the same role.

 

Latra's purpose was to prevent saidar from being tainted. Her opposition was pointless save for that purpose. The Pattern made it that way. There is no need for this, Rand, with LTT memories, knows that he cannot use saidin or saidar to touch the DO or it will be tainted. He won't make the same mistake twice.

 

This Age is not a repeat of the last age. There will be a time when the War of Shadow is fought again, but not until the next turning.

 

LTT reborn, as Rand, is not a carbon copy of LTT, Rand is there to correct the mistakes he made in the earlier age, to seal the bore properly and prevent another breaking.

 

If Egwene is Latra she is reborn to make up for her mistakes in the earlier age, dividing the two sexes and making the seals weaker (because of no links)

 

Egwene's opposition, in regards to Latra being reborn, serves no purpose.

 

It is a totally separate matter, the matter of the seals, which has no bearing on the previous Age, nor Latra Posae.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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@Aredeis

Good points.

 

It goes into what I'm thinking about the trust issue.

 

Yes, Mo and Nyn are the only two AS he does trust completely. But they are also the only two AS who trust HIM completely.

 

Egwene, and all the other AS and Saidar wielders, thinks Rand's plan to fight the DO is wrong. Even though they don't have a better one. They think they should be in control of the LB because they said so. It seems the AS put the needs of the Tower before anything else. Mo and Nyn would let all of Tar Valon burn if it meant a quick end to the LB.

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Er.. Am I (not) seeing things.. or is Moiraine missing her right hand??

 

Edit: She could just be holding her cloak shut.. over what..?

thats what i figure, she is holding her cloak shut, it looks like her cloak is kinda billowing a little from that point...also if i were her and i were wearing her angreal on that wrist i would be doing everything i could to make sure its not falling off, and its not goin anywhere holding on to her cloak like that

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Barid - I mentioned the Latra Posae reborn thing only to say I didnt like it. I think it would take away from Egwene's character. Nvr liked any of the theories that certain characters were someone famous reborn.. It would take away from Rand being special and cheapen the others. Perhaps in some way having her play a similar role would be cheap too though. However, considering how things went down the last time around, could you really blame the women if they didnt want to risk saidar being tainted this time either?

 

It wouldnt be a repeat of the last age, in the last age no one would defy Latra, in this age he would have Nyn and Mor. theoretically.

 

I'm not sold on this either. I just think its a possibility.

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Indeed, makes sense.

 

I think the theme of cooperation is too big though.

 

I would be disappointed if, when all of the balance and cooperation between men and women have been promoted that it ends up two women decide to help out.

 

Besides, the Seals are the only matter Egwene opposes Rand on. Once the Seals are broken, the point will be moot and Egwene will help out.

 

In fact, she proves less difficult than Latra, as she expect Rand to Seal the DO away again as per prophecy, whereas Latra had no such insurance for LTT.

 

I cannot see Egwene opposing Rand after the Seals are broken. She doesn't know what would be dangerous or what would be good concerning the re-sealing.

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