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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
RandA lThor

Who is the most overrated character in the wheel of time?

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They held the world together during the Breaking when no one else could

uhm no they didn't, they where just as confused and shattered as anyone else.

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They held the world together during the Breaking when no one else could

uhm no they didn't, they where just as confused and shattered as anyone else.

 

Ok saved and then lead the world out of the Breaking(what I meant by "holdin it togetgher") when no one else could? If they hadn't been their and male channelers had gone unchecked we wouldn't really have a story now. Seriously mate stop splitting hairs.

Edited by Suttree

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Aes Sedai, as an institution, were at their lowest point during the Breaking. While the War of Power had altered the nature of their "service," the Breaking changed it utterly. There were basically two roles for an Aes Sedai during the Breaking, hunting down and gentling male Aes Sedai and newly sparked male channelers, and confronting the not insignificant remnants of the Shadow's forces. Once the Breaking started winding down, it ended with the death of the last male Aes Sedai, the female Aes Sedai could focus on re-organization. This re-organization would have had dividing tensions between the few Pre-Breaking Aes Sedai, who would have wanted to return to and maintain their Age of Legends traditions of service, and the Breaking Era Aes Sedai, who would have had no context for the kind of service their elders meant, though they no doubt would have held those elders in great respect. These latter Aes Sedai would have been interested in maintaining the effort in the hunt for dangerous male channelers and rooting out Darkfriend organizations. And they would have had little contact with the "regular people" where they didn't hide their ability to channel from them. Fear of the One Power would have been at its peak during and immediately following the Breaking. They didn't lead the world during the Breaking, but they did help save it by thinning out the destructive male Aes Sedai and keeping check on the remnants of the Shadow's forces.

 

From the period between the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars, the power and effectiveness of the Aes Sedai, again, as an institution, would have grown in fits and starts, with the Aes Sedai being cautious of extending an offer of help the the burgeoning nations, and the people of those nations being very fearful of asking for it. The aid of the Aes Sedai in the Trolloc Wars can be attributed more to the initiative of individual channelers than to the effectiveness of the institution itself, which was still struggling with reconciling its Age of Legends traditions to the (relatively) new reality of fear and mistrust of the One Power. Recall that it was following the Trolloc Wars that the first Oaths were instituted. This is a clear indication that the Aes Sedai themselves recognized that their institution had failed in some important ways, and that their biggest obstacle to success was the fear and mistrust of the One Power that continued among the people. They did not lead the world during the Breaking, and were one of many leaders in the era leading up to the Trolloc Wars, probably not even the most respected or influential. And it was likely this realization that prompted the Aes Sedai into adopting the Oaths in the first place.

 

And these Oaths worked to a large extent. While Aes Sedai were never able to unify the land, especially as time wore on from the Trolloc Wars and stories of the Shadow became campfire tales, they were at least somewhat successful in keeping infighting between the nations at a minimum, helping maintain the stability of the Borderland nations, and reforming some of the fear and mistrust of the One Power, which, by this point, was more of a culturally ingrained fear, like a fear of snakes, than a rational one. The period of greatest success for the institution of the White Tower Aes Sedai was in fact during the reign of Artur Hawkwing, an empire they not only helped build, but largely ran, at least until Ishmael's corruption of Hawkwing and his war on Tar Valon. It is indicative here as well that Hawkwing, though he was able to conquer the whole of Randland, and, unbeknownst to himself, Seanchan as well, was unable to defeat Tar Valon. He did not lack for military force in the endeavor, he lacked the political support to sustain an all-out attack against them. He was reduced to a years-long and ineffectual seige. For the most popular and loved, at least by the common people, political leader in the history of the Third Age to have failed in what amounts to a political contest with the Aes Sedai, the Aes Sedai had to have had quite a bit of political capital themselves by this point. Fear of them likely remained to a great extent, but trust was largely re-won.

 

But Hawkwing turning on the White Tower would have been another blow to the public acceptance of Aes Sedai. Those commoners, and the governors of those nation-states within the Empire would have followed Hawkwing in his turn against the Aes Sedai. Some nations outlawed channeling outright, anti-channeler organizations were formed and grew, and with the exception of Andor, only the Borderland nations, whose rulers would have repeated first hand knowledge of the necessity for the institution of the White Tower, remained overtly politically allied with them, though even in those cases, much of the extent of that alliance was kept subdued, so as not to offend the more fearful and suspicious commoners and rulers of nations less convinced of the necessity for such an organization. Indeed, the majority of Randland nations was overtly agnostic regarding Tar Valon. Not in the sense that they didn't know whether or not there ought to be or really were Aes Sedai, but that they diligently presented the appearance of not caring about Tar Valon and the Aes Sedai, though in more private settings they were, if not happy, more than willing to accept their advice and offer tribute.

 

From the end of the Hundred Years War to the present day, the White Tower institution has largely marked time. What political acceptance and influence they have regained was been offset by their increasing isolation, which was largely self-imposed in response to what would have seemed like the whole world turning against them in a way not even seen during the Breaking. Fear of Aes Sedai became hostility towards Aes Sedai. A political retreat, which their scholars would have judged to have worked in response to the crisis of the Breaking and the Trolloc Wars, would have appeared to be the right move for them to make. Efforts to regain their influence and authority would have been made under cover and with subtle manipulation. But again, these efforts were more successes than failures. When Moiraine comes to the Two Rivers, she does not take great pains to conceal that she is Aes Sedai, in fact, given Lan's presence and appearance with her, it's one of the first conclusions regarding her identity that the Emond's Fielder's make. And while this conclusion inspires some trepidation among the people of Emond's Field, it also inspires an equal amount of curiosity and awe. When her identity as Aes Sedai is made a plain fact to them, their Women's Circle greets and talks with her cordially and with respect, if not with familiarity and friendliness.

 

In short (too late), the supposed "failures" of the White Tower in the Third Age, and the supposed personality flaws of the Aes Sedai themselves, are in fact the Aes Sedai doing the best that could be done in the situation they found themselves. They are not gods far above the quirks and limitations of human personalities, they are human beings, using their traditions and their insights the best way they can in a world they do not, and cannot, fully understand, and that is, if not hostile towards them, then at least largely fearful and mistrusting. The state of the White Tower and the nature of the personalities of the Aes Sedai are not criminal or pathetic, they are tragic, in the original, Greek sense of the word.

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Not necessarily Darkfriend chanellers. The Shadow did not have the Forsaken yet, so they could not teach them, nor would they. Any darkfriend channelers there were in one of three groups at one point or another. The Aiel, White Tower, and Sea Folk. The Sea Folk were seperate from the whole world and wouldn't be too much of a problem, the Aiel are insanely harsh on DFs, and the White Tower remains. A lot of the Darkfriends that would not go to the Tower to learn wouldn't even know they could channel and would turn into normal DFs which would be a lot better.

You ignore the possibility of surviving Dreadlords in the Blight. All it would take is one woman. And if the Shadow has channelers, it can screen its own ranks to find more channelers.

 

Also, I think that if the Tower did just one random check every few decades or whatever amount of time, they would catch a lot of DFs with reswearing one oath and saying they are not a DF. Also, I do not know if swearing the same oath that you already did binds you more.
As far as the AS know, the oaths cannot be unsworn - so a simple check would be to ask them. So why use the OR? And we have seen people who have already sworn the Three Oaths swear repeat Oaths. So we can see the effect is the same as swearing a new oath.

 

You would have to imagine that an oath to never serve the dark one would preclude you from forswearing your oath so that you could serve the dark one. After all, you wouldn't even be able to choose to do so unless you had already decided to serve the dark...which would be impossible.

I don't see why anyone would imagine such a thing. The two things are sequential - you forswear your oath, then you swear to serve Shai'tan. In other words, you do nothing to serve the Shadow until you are free from the oath that prevents you from doing so. You can decide to do so and simply be unable to until the oath is gone.

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An oath to keep these oaths forever until the entire Hall releases you from it. I knowthey wouldnt have thiught about this then, but it would work now.

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Moiraine, after book one she wasn't very useful except as a councillor and the only way for her to beat Be'lal was surprise that she could use balefire and she beat Lanfear, if you can even call it beating her, was to tackle her through the Redstone doorway. I'm interested to see what she does in AMoL but way overrated so far.

Edited by LoLPoR

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Unfortunately, I don't think that would work, since the oaths can still be removed somehow. I can't remember, did we ever find out exactly how the BA had their oaths removed? Was it the same oath rod, a different one, or something entirely different?

 

Edit: Talking, of course, on the conversation about Oaths

Edited by Goldstar

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Sammael gave an oath rod to Sevanna to use, and that's not something you can just throw away. I think that the Shadow has their own Oath Rod, especially because if they are swearing on the Oath Rod in the White Tower, other Aes Sedai might find them.

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Without a question the WT. While the WT undisputedly has been the leader in fighting the shadow for 3000 years, they failed to understand that they lost that leadership position when the Dragon appeared. The Dragon is now the leader of the light forces while the job of the WT is to advise not guide and not to lead. An advisor is decidedly a secondary and not an equal position to the DR. We see this WT supremacy complex in varying degrees from Siuan,Elaida and Egwene. I was just reading the "Winters Heart" and there is a scene with Elayne where she is thinking that things would be much easier if Rand kneeled before Egwene. WTF when did the Amyrlin even become an equal position to the DR forget been superior?

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Overrated characters? Pretty much the entire cast of forsaken and the DO. I have never seen such incomptence by set of baddies since the warlock lord tried to kill a puny ohmsford from shady vale

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Very true, Elan. However, you have to remember that they are fighting the Dragon Reborn and people like Demandred have made no mistakes at all.

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another thing to remember is that they haven't been trying to kill him either, they have been trying to turn him but turn him by his own choice.

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the dragon reborn has been turned many times before according to jordan. What difference did it make?

 

the last time these guys were even worth the money they were getting paid for was when they were kicking the forces of light before the final desperate act of LTT to end the war of power. Forward 3000 years later and they faced a shepherder and bunch of farmboys and farmgirls and yet got their asses kicked like rookies every single time.

 

As for demandred, the last time he had a chance to lay down a marker he got his rinsed by a bald ashaman and his companions. Playing hide and seek for 13 books is not something i would associate with a man that was almost the dragon of the last age

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the dragon reborn has been turned many times before according to jordan. What difference did it make?

 

the last time these guys were even worth the money they were getting paid for was when they were kicking the forces of light before the final desperate act of LTT to end the war of power. Forward 3000 years later and they faced a shepherder and bunch of farmboys and farmgirls and yet got their asses kicked like rookies every single time.

 

As for demandred, the last time he had a chance to lay down a marker he got his rinsed by a bald ashaman and his companions. Playing hide and seek for 13 books is not something i would associate with a man that was almost the dragon of the last age

the by his own choice is very important since it makes it less likely he can turn back to the light. And there is a special process in Shayol Ghul for channellers to do so, so there could be a very big difference.

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the dragon reborn has been turned many times before according to jordan. What difference did it make?

 

the last time these guys were even worth the money they were getting paid for was when they were kicking the forces of light before the final desperate act of LTT to end the war of power. Forward 3000 years later and they faced a shepherder and bunch of farmboys and farmgirls and yet got their asses kicked like rookies every single time.

 

As for demandred, the last time he had a chance to lay down a marker he got his rinsed by a bald ashaman and his companions. Playing hide and seek for 13 books is not something i would associate with a man that was almost the dragon of the last age

the by his own choice is very important since it makes it less likely he can turn back to the light. And there is a special process in Shayol Ghul for channellers to do so, so there could be a very big difference.

 

what makes you think the dragon was not turned by his own choice in previous reincarnations? and even if you were turned forcfully to the shadow using 13x13 trick the channeller is unlikely to return to the light according to jordan himself.

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I don't understand why everyone gives the forsaken such a hard time for their failures. Sure, they definitely haven't been the evil masterminds the scary stories implied but most of them failed due to things they could not control or predict.

 

Aginor & Balthemal (sp?) - ill give you this one as pretty lame. One hugged to death by a tree and the other burned themselves out. In their defense, they were a little insane at the time from staring at snails crawl by for 3000 years and from what I recall they weren't really the direct confrontation type even in the AoL.

 

Ishamael - lost the first time cause he didn't expect Rand to allow him self to be stabbed. Not sure I would account for that in a fight either. The second time he lost because Rand happened to reach callendor before his attack reached him (granted he shouldn't have said anything before attacking but, hey, what other perks do evil lords have but monologues)

 

Bel'al - Had Rand beat. Only lost because a person he thought was trapped in TAR showed up unexpectedly.

 

Asmodian - wasn't trying to fight Rand, was trying to get away and nearly killed Rand a few times in that chase. Only lost cause he's not a good wrestler but how many 3000+ year old people would win a wrestling match with a 20 year old?

 

Lanfear - Had Rand beat and was doing a pretty good job of tossing everyone else around like children. Lost because she doesn't have eyes in the back of her head.

 

Moggy - lost to a barely trained wilder twice, once in "her domain" (TAR). Yeah, epic fail.

 

Ravin - Had Rand beat. Lost because of Moggy's incompetence and Nyn's unpredictable interference.

 

Sammael - Had Rand beat. True, Rand sort of beat himself with his clumsiness, but if not for Moridin's intervention its likely Rand would have lost that confrontation.

 

O'sangar - Yeah, pretty sad getting killed by your own team

 

Ar'angar - betrayed by Graendal (sorry if I mixed these two up, always seem to)

 

Semirhage - No idea how she really planned to capture Rand at the manor house but her plan was foiled due to a ter'angreal she couldn't have predicted a third ager to have. Second time, lost because a non Chosen channeled the TP (how often does that happen). Yes, she should have left before torturing him but she's a sadist, that's what they do.

 

Moridin - plan to turn the Dragon nearly worked at dragonmount. Now we'll see how plan B goes.

 

Demandred - Evil genius status still undetermined.

 

So no they are not the most dastardly villains ever written but except for Moggy, Agi, and Bal, they aren't the bumbling idiots people seem to make them out to be. For the most part they are just unlucky.

 

Whoops, forgot Graendal. Not really sure how I feel about her. She's good at killing channelers, just not on the right team. She's a survivor though.

 

Did I forget anyone else?

 

Oh, yeah, Masaana - did a pretty good job of messing up the WT for a while. Yeah, getting mind flayed by egwene was pretty sad but Perrin randomly bringing a dream spike into the middle of her raid was again extremely unlucky.

Edited by Sheepherder

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The Foresaken's actions and achievements compared to their reputation falls short. The books paint them as the most powerful and knowledgeable to walk the earth with all their AoL stuff; but we see how they fail miserably like so many other elements in the books.

 

But the problem with the Foresaken is that we see very few of their PoV's. We don't see much of their side of the story or their details. For example, I would have loved a few paragraphs from/on the commander of the Shadowspawn army attacking Maradon.

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I admitted they didn't live up to their legends but who does? Can you really expect them to compare to stories which have had 3000 years to be exaggerated? My point was that they aren't really any more pathetic then almost every other story villain. I mean, how effective can you really make the bad guys when your protagonist only just left being a sheep herder barely a year ago?

Edited by Sheepherder

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I admitted they didn't live up to their legends but who does? Can you really expect them to compare to stories which have had 3000 years to be exaggerated? My point was that they aren't really any more pathetic then almost every other story villain. I mean, how effective can you really make the bad guys when your protagonist only just left being a sheep herder barely a year ago?

 

Which is the whole point of their failure. The most powerful lieutenants of the Shadow failing miserably at the hands of two sheepherders and an apprentice blacksmith. The only Foresaken to make Rand really suffer was Semirhage. All the others were simply waiting in line for him to gun them down. That is how it seems because we don't see their PoV's. Be'lal gained Tear, Sammael ruled Illian, and Rahvin had Andor under control. These are significant achievements; We don't see their evil genius in getting those kingdoms; we only see their epic failure to survive against Rand's amateurish skills and divine-intervention guided survival.

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I admitted they didn't live up to their legends but who does? Can you really expect them to compare to stories which have had 3000 years to be exaggerated? My point was that they aren't really any more pathetic then almost every other story villain. I mean, how effective can you really make the bad guys when your protagonist only just left being a sheep herder barely a year ago?

 

Which is the whole point of their failure. The most powerful lieutenants of the Shadow failing miserably at the hands of two sheepherders and an apprentice blacksmith. The only Foresaken to make Rand really suffer was Semirhage. All the others were simply waiting in line for him to gun them down. That is how it seems because we don't see their PoV's. Be'lal gained Tear, Sammael ruled Illian, and Rahvin had Andor under control. These are significant achievements; We don't see their evil genius in getting those kingdoms; we only see their epic failure to survive against Rand's amateurish skills and divine-intervention guided survival.

dont forget that mesaana engineered the whole box thing

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I admitted they didn't live up to their legends but who does? Can you really expect them to compare to stories which have had 3000 years to be exaggerated? My point was that they aren't really any more pathetic then almost every other story villain. I mean, how effective can you really make the bad guys when your protagonist only just left being a sheep herder barely a year ago?

 

Which is the whole point of their failure. The most powerful lieutenants of the Shadow failing miserably at the hands of two sheepherders and an apprentice blacksmith. The only Foresaken to make Rand really suffer was Semirhage. All the others were simply waiting in line for him to gun them down. That is how it seems because we don't see their PoV's. Be'lal gained Tear, Sammael ruled Illian, and Rahvin had Andor under control. These are significant achievements; We don't see their evil genius in getting those kingdoms; we only see their epic failure to survive against Rand's amateurish skills and divine-intervention guided survival.

dont forget that mesaana engineered the whole box thing

 

I thought Elaida's madness was behind that whole episode since she kept Alviarin away from that plan. But I remember how Mesaana boasted to the other Foresaken that she'll have Rand under control in a few days or weeks. She still didn't spirit (Travel) him away to the White Tower when she had him in the box. She valued keeping Traveling a secret over securing the Dragon; which shows how smart she was!

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I admitted they didn't live up to their legends but who does? Can you really expect them to compare to stories which have had 3000 years to be exaggerated? My point was that they aren't really any more pathetic then almost every other story villain. I mean, how effective can you really make the bad guys when your protagonist only just left being a sheep herder barely a year ago?

 

Which is the whole point of their failure. The most powerful lieutenants of the Shadow failing miserably at the hands of two sheepherders and an apprentice blacksmith. The only Foresaken to make Rand really suffer was Semirhage. All the others were simply waiting in line for him to gun them down. That is how it seems because we don't see their PoV's. Be'lal gained Tear, Sammael ruled Illian, and Rahvin had Andor under control. These are significant achievements; We don't see their evil genius in getting those kingdoms; we only see their epic failure to survive against Rand's amateurish skills and divine-intervention guided survival.

dont forget that mesaana engineered the whole box thing

 

I thought Elaida's madness was behind that whole episode since she kept Alviarin away from that plan. But I remember how Mesaana boasted to the other Foresaken that she'll have Rand under control in a few days or weeks. She still didn't spirit (Travel) him away to the White Tower when she had him in the box. She valued keeping Traveling a secret over securing the Dragon; which shows how smart she was!

I figured that was her just wanting to keep rand being tortured before he got to the WT. Get him having the whole stockholm symdrome thing goin on so she wouldn't have use compulsion or anything like that. Besides it would have been very messy to port him with the amount of non BA involved

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People really do underestimate the Forsaken. In the Eye of the World, the Green Man was seen as the force of nature itself, which is a very formidable foe. It sounds lame, but he took him with him, so it wasn't too bad. I kind of forgot what really happened to Aginor. Moghedien is sad, I will not argue that, she was just good at sneaking around. Lanfear was able to own Moiraine, Aviendha, Egwene, and Rand but didn't see Moiraine behind her. Rahvin was able to get so much done if not just with the strenth of power. He was able to break Andor pretty well, and that was a real pain. He also almost killed Aviendha, Mat, and Asmodean along with Rand and was doing pretty well. Sammael was able to create ruin with the Aiel and in Illian and was doing pretty well off. Be'lal was taken by surprise, and Semirhage was able to kill the entire Seanchean royal family, take off Rand's hand, and torture him by watching himself try to kill Min. She also turned him into cuendillar which was significant for the shadow. Arangar and Osangar were betrayed by someone they usually should have been able to trust. Cyndane hasn't been able to do anything recently and Moridin hasn't been able to do anything either. Mesaana would have won the White tower if not for Perrin. The only ones who such are Moghedien and possibly Aginor, not sure about him.

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I admitted they didn't live up to their legends but who does? Can you really expect them to compare to stories which have had 3000 years to be exaggerated? My point was that they aren't really any more pathetic then almost every other story villain. I mean, how effective can you really make the bad guys when your protagonist only just left being a sheep herder barely a year ago?

 

Which is the whole point of their failure. The most powerful lieutenants of the Shadow failing miserably at the hands of two sheepherders and an apprentice blacksmith. The only Foresaken to make Rand really suffer was Semirhage. All the others were simply waiting in line for him to gun them down. That is how it seems because we don't see their PoV's. Be'lal gained Tear, Sammael ruled Illian, and Rahvin had Andor under control. These are significant achievements; We don't see their evil genius in getting those kingdoms; we only see their epic failure to survive against Rand's amateurish skills and divine-intervention guided survival.

dont forget that mesaana engineered the whole box thing

 

I thought Elaida's madness was behind that whole episode since she kept Alviarin away from that plan. But I remember how Mesaana boasted to the other Foresaken that she'll have Rand under control in a few days or weeks. She still didn't spirit (Travel) him away to the White Tower when she had him in the box. She valued keeping Traveling a secret over securing the Dragon; which shows how smart she was!

I figured that was her just wanting to keep rand being tortured before he got to the WT. Get him having the whole stockholm symdrome thing goin on so she wouldn't have use compulsion or anything like that. Besides it would have been very messy to port him with the amount of non BA involved

 

She still didn't secure him. She could have tortured him without compulsion in a secure location. And she didn't have to Travel everyone. Galine was under control; and Mesaana could have brought 13 or more BA to take Rand away from Galina and then Travel him away. I am treading the "speculation" surface here; but I see that her failure to secure Rand after he was imprisoned as a failure. She could have had him in Shayol Ghul if she wanted; and it wouldn't have mattered then if her cover was blown! She would have been named Na'eblis right away!

 

People really do underestimate the Forsaken. In the Eye of the World, the Green Man was seen as the force of nature itself, which is a very formidable foe. It sounds lame, but he took him with him, so it wasn't too bad. I kind of forgot what really happened to Aginor. Moghedien is sad, I will not argue that, she was just good at sneaking around. Lanfear was able to own Moiraine, Aviendha, Egwene, and Rand but didn't see Moiraine behind her. Rahvin was able to get so much done if not just with the strenth of power. He was able to break Andor pretty well, and that was a real pain. He also almost killed Aviendha, Mat, and Asmodean along with Rand and was doing pretty well. Sammael was able to create ruin with the Aiel and in Illian and was doing pretty well off. Be'lal was taken by surprise, and Semirhage was able to kill the entire Seanchean royal family, take off Rand's hand, and torture him by watching himself try to kill Min. She also turned him into cuendillar which was significant for the shadow. Arangar and Osangar were betrayed by someone they usually should have been able to trust. Cyndane hasn't been able to do anything recently and Moridin hasn't been able to do anything either. Mesaana would have won the White tower if not for Perrin. The only ones who such are Moghedien and possibly Aginor, not sure about him.

 

That is part of the problem; we don't see enough of their evil genius. We just see their failures. Another part of their problem is how detached they are from "today's" world. For all their knowledge and power, they are ignorant in many simple things. Verin, bless her soul, gave Egwene a nice analysis of the Foresaken.

Edited by Theodril

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