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bigdoug1971

When did we first suspect Verin to be a Darkfriend?

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I had always wondered when Perrin had the arrow in him during his battle in the Two Rivers when Verin made him wait for Alanna to heal him when he almost died. Was it then we should have been aware that Verin was a darkfriend and afraid that if she openly helped one of the three boys she might be punished? I'll not disagree that Alanna might be better with Healing, but Verin didn't even try.

 

When Rand was hurt in the tent by Fain's dagger, Cadsuane tried Healing him immediately. The Aes Sedai with her, (forgot her name), told Cadsuane that if she hadn't tried Healing him immediately that she might not have been able to save him as much as she did and that he still might die even after her efforts. (Enter the Asha'man to finish the job of sealing the wound off).

 

Verin lied about Moiraine sending her to go with the boys to find the Horn, but we didn't know she lied until they seen Moiraine again and she could deny sending Verin. So we may have been suspiscious of her being a Darkfriend then, but not trying to Heal Perrin from the brink of death and waiting for Alanna to come along to do it really set off alarms for me.

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I was always mildly suspicious of Verin, I liked her but I didn't quite trust her. Her motives were never clear.

 

I remember having the thought that she might be black, I think on my second read through, which was years and years ago. I can't remember what prompted it. I also remember dismissing the notion later on, on the basis that she'd done too much to help the light.

 

So I wasn't all that surprised by the revelation she was black in tGS but I was surprised by the double agent bit, I can't claim I ever considered that.

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The Moraine sent me thing. Now that I know she is a DF that seems an obvious give away but I was always dismissive of the claim because her PoVs didn't seem to match it.

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I suspected every single Aes Sedia of being Black Ajah until I finished ToM.....I so badly wanted Cadsuane to be a dirty stinkin "Great Lord" lover.....Im still hoping for somthing really bad to happen to her.......

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I didn't think of Verin as a Darkfried at all until she started to become more suspicious and do things to the captured Aes Sedai in the Wise One's control. I however was completely surprised by the whole double agent thing. It made sense as I read it, but it still surprised me a lot.

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we first suspected when she claimed that suian or moiraine asked her to join the hunt in book 2. well atleast when moiraine said that she hadnt sent her.

 

heh the old wotmania theories of her being a "friend of the light" are actualy pretty awesome in retrospect.

Edited by Testy al'Carr

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I suspected every single Aes Sedia of being Black Ajah until I finished ToM.....

 

Basically me aswell. Although not because I hate them, but I suspected EVERYONE until they were proven Lightfriends.

 

More so on my first read, I was suspicious of everyone, this started when Liandrin is shown to be Black at the start of tGH in Fal Dara, I got the feeling that everyone was suspect.

 

I started suspecting Verin in particular at the end of tGH, when Moiraine says she did not send Verin (contrary to her statement) and Ingtar plus all the others we learned to be DF's throughout the book really got me "paranoid" about DF's.

 

But my suspicion was never really a certainty that she was BA. From tSR when she was in TR, and the more we saw of Verin, the more I though she was Lightfriend. I still suspected her, but I was never "sure" she was a DF. And like BenevolentCow, I never considered the double agent, but I was not surprised by it either, nor that she was a DF.

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I had always wondered when Perrin had the arrow in him during his battle in the Two Rivers when Verin made him wait for Alanna to heal him when he almost died. Was it then we should have been aware that Verin was a darkfriend and afraid that if she openly helped one of the three boys she might be punished? I'll not disagree that Alanna might be better with Healing, but Verin didn't even try.

Despite being a Darkfriend, Verin was on the side of the Light. She had no desire for Perrin to die. Nor, as far as I'm aware, did she have any orders to kill him. So this doesn't really support her being a Darkfriend. Besides, surely if she wanted him to die (or was under orders to kill him), she would do something to make it happen, rather than just do nothing, wait, and hope for the best.

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I started suspecting Verin in particular at the end of tGH, when Moiraine says she did not send Verin (contrary to her statement) and Ingtar plus all the others we learned to be DF's throughout the book really got me "paranoid" about DF's.

 

But my suspicion was never really a certainty that she was BA.

The same goes for me.

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I always figured that the "Moriane sent me" was just some sort of Aes Sedai wordplay or "it is only a lie if you think it is a lie" type of thing.

 

For me, it was the Compulsion scenes with the captive Aes Sedai. Since Compulsion is frowned upon in the Tower, but the Dark side seems to use it daily.

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I always figured that the "Moriane sent me" was just some sort of Aes Sedai wordplay or "it is only a lie if you think it is a lie" type of thing.

 

For me, it was the Compulsion scenes with the captive Aes Sedai. Since Compulsion is frowned upon in the Tower, but the Dark side seems to use it daily.

Like I said, going back and rereading now that I know it is fairly obviously a blatant contradiction. Sure, you could rationalize it, but now that is was shown she could lie you don't need to.

 

I liked Verin, so pretty much anything she did that was darkfriendish I rationalized away. The compulsion scene was something I actually held up -against- her being a darkfriend, because she vas very careful in her own thoughts to state whywhat she was saying was the but-not-the-whole truth. It caught me very off guard when she came out, but I can see the clues now that the answer has been pointed out to me and it makes me a bit embarressed that I discounted all the theories about her being a darkfriend that were floating around everywhere.

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I always argued that she couldn't be a Darkfriend because she wanted to write out her ciphers so that others could read her notes when she died. What kind of Darkfriend would do that? And she seemed so accepting of the idea that she would die soon, which is not what you would expect from a Darkfriend. They all believe they'll live forever, or something.

 

Edit: I'd say the first real reason to suspect was her interest in the Dark Prophecy, but the clincher was her lie. And by the end of the book, Moiraine had revealed that it was a lie. Of course, we explained it away with Aes Sedai wording, but the fact that even Moiraine seemed disturbed should have been a big clue, and her warning in her letter to Rand. I liked that she picked Alviarin over Elaida as being untrustworthy, knowing Rand was stupid enough to fall for it, and knowing Alviarin's letter was a load of pure BS. (While Elaida's was truth in the Aes Sedai sense.)

Edited by Terez

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She lied twice in TGH, not only that Moiraine sent her, but she also mentioned to Rand that the damane can detect men's channelling. That's when I started to suspect her, though I also considered the possibility of RJ making a mistake.

Edited by David Selig

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The canon wasn't really clear on that point in TGH, since Nynaeve sensed Aginor's channeling in the Acceptatron. Of course, that could have been just another 'wrong' detail, since the ter'angreal seems to work somewhat with the testee's perceptions of how things work.

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I'm not sure the exact moment but it was early. something always bothered me about her, just didn't figure it out before it was revealed that she was a double agent.

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i suspected when moraine told them not to trust her or alanna. (if i'm remembering right), and went back and forth throughout the series, until she revealed herself to Egwene... i caught onto Sheriam way earlier, in the novices' quarters after the grey man attack.

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heh, you're all better at this than me. I first suspected her when she told Egwene that her dress was orange.

 

Green, actually. In RJ's books, people have sense enough not to wear orange. Another little detail Brandon seems to have missed...

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I suspected Verin when she gave Egwene the ring in TGH--who didn't?

I really sat up and paid attention when she pops up in Far Madding.

 

The whole not healing Perrin didn't alert me, and neither did her lies. but by CoT I was debating with my aunt about Verin. She said Darkfriend, I said that was too simple, that there was more to it. I cheered at the end of A Visit with Verin Sedai.

 

One of my favorite scenes in the whole series.

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I had always thought that Verin was a Darkfriend, albeit a somewhat strange one. I mean, she does really give herself away big time in tGH when she claims that Moraine sent her to watch over them. Then later, Moraine quite clearly says that she did not send Verin. If Verin outright lying wasn't enough, when you see the information that she gives the three Accepted in tDR on the known BA Aes Sedai who escaped to Tear, and we then learn that Suian had no idea about this information, well. Then in LoC, Verin in many ways single-handedly causes the Salidar Aes Sedai delegation to Rand to fall apart, raising even more questions.

 

However, that being said, I also always felt that Verin genuinely wanted to help Rand, Matt, Perrin, Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve... Her voice just rings very true when she is giving these people advice. I found it very satisfying that Verin was a double agent BA, because it did clear up her behavior a lot for me.

 

On a side note, given our knowledge of Verin now, I think the scene in Far Madding where she decides not to poison Cadsuane is probably a strong indicator that Cadsuane isn't a Darkfriend, although by no means definitive proof, especially to those who have it as their most cherished wish that Cadsuane wil turn out to be a Darkfriend.

Edited by DaoineSidhe

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Eh I blubberd like a baby on A visit from Verin Sedia......

Me too!

I read all the discrepancies about her acts, but dismissed them in the end because I liked her so much.

The lie? Well, she could utter it if she believed it to be true.

Compulsion? The oaths don't forbid it as such and she seems to use it for the Light, so she can't be a DF.

That's why 'A visit from Verin Sedai' is my favourite chapter in the series: it shocked me so much and intrigued me that I was so wrong about her and that she was so much more awesome than I thought her to be.

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I was suspicious when first introduced but became a believer when she was using minor compulsion after Lord of Chaos. I am still uncertain of Alana since she hasn't been around Rand after his visit to Dragonmount and now has the Creator's Sight to see Dark Friends. Her letter may have told her to leave because Rand had changed to what he is now and would be able to detect her when next they were together.

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I doubt Alanna is DF. In LoC, just after Alanna bonded Rand, Verin thinks to herself that it was good Alanna kept her feelings under tight control until then, because it would destabilize her now and make things easier. We didn't know what, but after ACoS it seems very likely that Verin took advantage of Alanna's state to Compel her (it requires trust, or rather lack of suspicion, to work). To what end, I have no clue, but I doubt Verin would remain oblivious to Alanna's being a DF, or that she'd keep that fact from Egwene (most of all, I doubt Egwene wouldn't have noted Alanna's name, if it were in that list).

Edited by yoniy0

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