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Mesaana and Asmodean?


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Did she know he was blocked, though?

I think so, her, Sammael and Rhavin had a chat with Lanfear about it at the start of FoH. At least Lanfear told them about Asmodean being Rand's teacher, I suppose she would have told them of him being blocked.

Again, with what we know of her, do you think she would of made such a bold move if she didn't know she had an advantage?

Yes, she told them Asmodean now helps Rand, but she as good as promised the both of them that she would never tell the other FS why he did it. Not that she's trustworthy or anything, but in this case it serves her interests for them to be oblivious to Rand's trick with cutting Asmo from the DO, and to the fact that she helped him. Also, it doesn't help her if they thought they could just drop in on Rand (which knowing Asmodean wouldn't be able to resist them would only help) -- she needed them to try and lure Rand out if she's to take control of him rather than have him dead.

With regard to Graendal's taking action -- if the Sherlock Holmes version is to believed (as, according to RJ, it should), then Asmodean died because he dropped in on her. Under these circumstances, it doesn't take much to attempt to kill him before he could do the same to her, for all that his block certainly didn't hurt her chances.

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Yes, she told them Asmodean now helps Rand, but she as good as promised the both of them that she would never tell the other FS why he did it. Not that she's trustworthy or anything, but in this case it serves her interests for them to be oblivious to Rand's trick with cutting Asmo from the DO, and to the fact that she helped him. Also, it doesn't help her if they thought they could just drop in on Rand (which knowing Asmodean wouldn't be able to resist them would only help) -- she needed them to try and lure Rand out if she's to take control of him rather than have him dead.

With regard to Graendal's taking action -- if the Sherlock Holmes version is to believed (as, according to RJ, it should), then Asmodean died because he dropped in on her. Under these circumstances, it doesn't take much to attempt to kill him before he could do the same to her, for all that his block certainly didn't hurt her chances.

 

1. Fair enough, although technically, she could say that Asmodean was blocked without giving away why or who, although it would certainly bring up awkward questions.

 

2. I had forgotten about it being unintentional, so I suppose it doesn't really matter if she knew, she would have just acted on reflex (if there can be such a thing channelling).

 

Also makes me wonder, what on earth was she doing in a pantry in the first place? I mean, the Palace makes sense, but a pantry?

 

It makes me wonder if she was scavenging for items Rhavin left behind, but beside the point I suppose.

 

And another thing that bugged me about it, why Rand or any of the others don't think/do more about Asmodean's disappearance, I can only remember Rand thinking about Asmodean in tGS, all the others never do. He spent a good time with "Natael" his own personal "bard", it is strange that there is no search party (obviously under the guise of looking for Natael, not Asmodean) or Mat and certainly Avi never even think twice about it.

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I always assumed that his corpse was found off screen. Granted this means no BF, but it answers the questions as to why never thought of him at all after he vanished. Then tGS comes around and Rand is all 'I wonder where he ran off to' ruining my theory.

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Yes, she told them Asmodean now helps Rand, but she as good as promised the both of them that she would never tell the other FS why he did it. Not that she's trustworthy or anything, but in this case it serves her interests for them to be oblivious to Rand's trick with cutting Asmo from the DO, and to the fact that she helped him. Also, it doesn't help her if they thought they could just drop in on Rand (which knowing Asmodean wouldn't be able to resist them would only help) -- she needed them to try and lure Rand out if she's to take control of him rather than have him dead.

With regard to Graendal's taking action -- if the Sherlock Holmes version is to believed (as, according to RJ, it should), then Asmodean died because he dropped in on her. Under these circumstances, it doesn't take much to attempt to kill him before he could do the same to her, for all that his block certainly didn't hurt her chances.

 

1. Fair enough, although technically, she could say that Asmodean was blocked without giving away why or who, although it would certainly bring up awkward questions.

 

2. I had forgotten about it being unintentional, so I suppose it doesn't really matter if she knew, she would have just acted on reflex (if there can be such a thing channelling).

 

Also makes me wonder, what on earth was she doing in a pantry in the first place? I mean, the Palace makes sense, but a pantry?

 

It makes me wonder if she was scavenging for items Rhavin left behind, but beside the point I suppose.

 

And another thing that bugged me about it, why Rand or any of the others don't think/do more about Asmodean's disappearance, I can only remember Rand thinking about Asmodean in tGS, all the others never do. He spent a good time with "Natael" his own personal "bard", it is strange that there is no search party (obviously under the guise of looking for Natael, not Asmodean) or Mat and certainly Avi never even think twice about it.

RJ at sometime said that the death of Asmodean was 'roadkill'. So Graendal scavenging the palace for *angreal and Asmodean accidently walking in on her might be a good guess.

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Also makes me wonder, what on earth was she doing in a pantry in the first place? I mean, the Palace makes sense, but a pantry?

 

It makes me wonder if she was scavenging for items Rhavin left behind, but beside the point I suppose.

Yes, according to Sherlock, that's exactly what she was doing, the same as she did after Sammael's death. But... Sherlock does make a point of saying Asmodean didn't necessarily die in a pantry (much to Watson's surprise). He just thought that the door he opened would get him there :smile:

 

I always assumed that his corpse was found off screen. Granted this means no BF, but it answers the questions as to why never thought of him at all after he vanished. Then tGS comes around and Rand is all 'I wonder where he ran off to' ruining my theory.

It wasn't, at least not initially. Rand thought of Asmodean's betraying him and running away sometime afterwards, which obviously means he didn't know about his death.

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Is this outside

Also makes me wonder, what on earth was she doing in a pantry in the first place? I mean, the Palace makes sense, but a pantry?

 

It makes me wonder if she was scavenging for items Rhavin left behind, but beside the point I suppose.

Yes, according to Sherlock, that's exactly what she was doing, the same as she did after Sammael's death. But... Sherlock does make a point of saying Asmodean didn't necessarily die in a pantry (much to Watson's surprise). He just thought that the door he opened would get him there :smile:

 

I always assumed that his corpse was found off screen. Granted this means no BF, but it answers the questions as to why never thought of him at all after he vanished. Then tGS comes around and Rand is all 'I wonder where he ran off to' ruining my theory.

It wasn't, at least not initially. Rand thought of Asmodean's betraying him and running away sometime afterwards, which obviously means he didn't know about his death.

Is that outside of the BS books? Not doubting you but I never picked it up besides them.

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Not exactly. It was a fan-made theory regarding the identity of the killer, styled as a conversation between Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson. Reportedly, RJ had it printed among his notes with a sticky-note attached to it saying "this is right", or some such.

 

EDIT: wait, if you're asking about the second part, then it was somewhere in LoC.

Edited by yoniy0
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graendal killed asmodean?

 

Yes. It is in the glossary of ToM. It was a nice surprise that I learned on these forums.

 

Well, it's explicitly stated in the glossary. And implied by Shaidar Haran in the book.

 

It explicitly says no such thing. It says:

 

she was responsible for the deaths of Aran'gar and Asmodean and for the destruction of Mesaana.

 

We know perfectly well she didn't pull the trigger herself on Aran'gar, Rand did that. So how can it explicitly mean Graendal killed Asmodean? It doesn't. I suspect that it probably was her, but it's not certain. It could have been a Graendal minion. I mean, "You!" seem a little odd between two forsaken.

 

Please don't start all this up again Kael. Some noob will latch on and run with it. BS has explicitly stated the glossary answers the question. It was Graendal.

 

Then use the quote that proves it, don't pass one that doesn't off as one that does. All I ask.

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Just going back to Mesaana for a bit here, her "destruction" in TAR is not a permanent thing. It hasn't destroyed her soul.

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 10th, 2011

Tor Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

 

ANDREW B ()

In Towers of Midnight's glossary, it is noted that Mesaana is destroyed (as opposed to Asmodean and Aran'gar who are noted to have been killed). If the Aes Sedai were to execute Mesaana, would the Dark One be able to put Mesaana's soul in another body? Or since her mind was destroyed, is Mesaana's soul permanently damaged?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON ()


Nobody's soul gets permanently damaged in that way in the Wheel of Time. Whether the Dark One can recover her and transmigrate her soul or not is a RAFO.

 

I am not saying that the DO can transmigrate her, since Brandon RAFO'ed it, however, it is not like the wolf soul bit, where their soul is destroyed.

 

 

@yoniy0 thanks, I will have to read the actual Sherlock theory one day, I never cared much about the particulars of Asmodean's death, just a general curiosity as to who did it, the answer "Graendal caused it" was good enough for me.

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I'm guessing that Mesaana would actually have to physically die for her soul to be released for transmigration? Also do we have a clue whether her ability to channel is absolutely destroyed?

Morr (?) in TPoD went mad and regressed to being a little kid but he could still channel. Messi may still be physically able to channel but not have enough volition to do it. A Graendal or Semirhage or a Flinn - that is, somebody with the requisite medical skills and understanding of the OP and the mind-body connection - may be able to use that broken mind and body.

All very speculative of course.

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If anything but death can be healed why couldn't Mesaana be Healed. Graendal was very skilled at healing mental afflictions. That would make a dangerous trap. A forsaken inside the white tower. Who is watching her now. If they think she is beyond repair they could have some novice feeding and changing her. I always go by the rule if you don't see the character balefired then they are not gone for good. Look at Moiraine's, and graendal's not death....

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I doubt Semi could do much. Problems of the mind couldn't be touched according to one her her PoVs, never mind that Nyn figured out how to cure taint-madness. Her personality was completely shattered, I doubt any amout of therapy could help her at all. I read it as her being given a lobotomy, she is probably written off unless she gets killed/transmigrated.

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I have an idea why the Dark One can't bring Asmodean back to life....only one major thing happened to him that was unique. He was already killed and was brought back to life when Rand use Balefire on Rhavin. I suppose that could have had an effect.

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If anything but death can be healed why couldn't Mesaana be Healed. Graendal was very skilled at healing mental afflictions. That would make a dangerous trap. A forsaken inside the white tower. Who is watching her now. If they think she is beyond repair they could have some novice feeding and changing her. I always go by the rule if you don't see the character balefired then they are not gone for good. Look at Moiraine's, and graendal's not death....

I believe BS had said that Mesaana is gone.

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RJ has said that Asmo couldn't be ressurrected by the DO (asif he would have wanted to...) because op the how and where of his demise.

How has been answered: probably balefire.

But what I haven't seen answered is the where. Why does the location of his death prevent the DO to ressurrect him?

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Well Robert Jordan was always a bit tricky and Asmo died twice so far in the book. How do you not know where? The balefire is speculation. If I recall the Dark One said he couldnt bring back people torn or burned from the Pattern...could be something else capable of that. But unless Robert Jordan said which of Asmo's deaths caused the problem then it's all guesses.

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I'll go out on a limb and say I don't think he was balefired. We have seen in the past that the dark one is unable to transmigrate a soul that died to balefire. Since balefire alone would be enough to make him unrecoverable, there would be no additional requirement for a location.

 

In order for it to be a combination of both how and where, the how needs to be something that would not be unrecoverable everywhere, and the where needs to be somewhere that another method of death would have left him recoverable.

 

If Graendal was scavenging for artifacts, it's possible she gated somewhere from inside the room, and entering moved Asmodeon through the gateway. It does seem careless of her to put a gateway in front of a pantry door - though Asmodeon could simply have his geography mixed.

 

I can't remember if Graendal could use the true power at that point. If so, perhaps she was using a true power gateway to move somewhere, and she snapped it shut, with Asmodeon partway through, so his soul was devided between being inside the pattern and outside it.

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If the gateway were positioned so as to admit Asmodean through it just by walking through the door, then Graendal herself couldn't have entered the palace. Gateways are one-sided, you can't pass through them from the other side. Or, rather, you can, but the place and condition you would find yourself in... aren't comfortable.

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I need to take a little issue with you on that point yoniy0.

 

The gateway Aviendha created to Seanchan was blocked open by Rand, and the pair of them returned home through the same gateway they left through. So it cannot be the case that gateways are unidirectional.

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Yes, but if I were to place a Gateway in my front door, I could walk out the door and end up in Australia, but it would not be a great experience to walk into my house from the street.

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If the gateway were positioned so as to admit Asmodean through it just by walking through the door, then Graendal herself couldn't have entered the palace. Gateways are one-sided, you can't pass through them from the other side. Or, rather, you can, but the place and condition you would find yourself in... aren't comfortable.

 

I think Yoniy0 means that you can enter a gateway from one side only: The front side facing the weaver. A person cannot go behind the gateway and enter it to go to the same location. This has nothing to do with two-way traffic, which is well established in the books.

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Indeed, Theodril/yoniy0 has it right.

 

The Gateway has only "one side" so to speak. If you tried to go through the back of a Gateway, it would not be pleasant.

 

You can go back and forth between the two places, if you hold the gateway open, but you have to enter from the "front", as Theodril explained

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i concur.

 

does anyone know what happens if a character needs the gateway to Not be completely vertical? i wonder if there's any way to weave one flat on the ground or something... perhaps its a new different weave altogether

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i concur.

 

does anyone know what happens if a character needs the gateway to Not be completely vertical? i wonder if there's any way to weave one flat on the ground or something... perhaps its a new different weave altogether

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jun 27th, 1996

 

AOL Chat 1 (Verbatim)

JJVORSMITH

Can gateways be created at non-right angles to the ground? If not, why not? If yes, why haven't we seen them?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

They can be, and you haven't seen it because there's been no need to do it. And also some of the people who can make gateways don't know how to do it.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Jan 17th, 2003

COT Signing Report - Jonathan Gan (Paraphrased)

 

JONATHAN GAN

 

Can a Gateway be opened horizontally?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

 

(paused for 3 or 4 seconds in thought) I don't see why not.

 

 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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