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Edynol

Could Fain be fighting for the Light?

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Okay honestly, I don't really believe this myself, but after giving it some thought, I think it might deserve some looking into. So here is my theory.

 

We all know the driving force between what happened to Mordeth and SL was a deep hatred for the shadow that eventually consumed them and became a dark entity of its own. But what if MorFain's(I'm calling him Morphine from now on), hatred for the shadow actually outweighs his hatred for Rand and the others?

 

I mean, think about it. He's killed and tortured Myrddraals to get info from them to use against the shadow, then he leaves Rand a note about Toman Head, which allows him and the others to distract the Seanchan so Eggy and the girls can escape and also get the dagger for Mat. Now we all know Morphine is crafty and intelligent in his own way, I'm sure he could've gotten that dagger back easily if he wanted to and walked right out of there, decimating anyone who got in his way, but instead he fled and let them sound the horn and defeat the Seanchan.

 

Secondly, when he joined the Children and went to TR, he methodically lead children away and disposed of them so Perrin and the others wouldn't have to fight so many in the future. What a kind, considerate man he is! smile.gif

 

And then at Cairhien! He practically gave Rand the answer of how to cleanse Saidin! Out of all the places he could have cut Rand with that dagger and killed him, a stab in the shoulder, a nick on a finger or something, he went straight for that wound infected with the Shadow's taint. Coincidence? I think not!

 

So see, yeah, he is still a villain, in his own way, but I think he could possibly, and cryptically, be helping Rand and the others to defeat the DO. Then after that is done, he will concentrate on killing them.

 

Like I said before, I don't really believe this myself, but it does strike me as a possibility.

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Okay honestly, I don't really believe this myself, but after giving it some thought, I think it might deserve some looking into. So here is my theory.

 

We all know the driving force between what happened to Mordeth and SL was a deep hatred for the shadow that eventually consumed them and became a dark entity of its own. But what if MorFain's(I'm calling him Morphine from now on), hatred for the shadow actually outweighs his hatred for Rand and the others?

 

I mean, think about it. He's killed and tortured Myrddraals to get info from them to use against the shadow, then he leaves Rand a note about Toman Head, which allows him and the others to distract the Seanchan so Eggy and the girls can escape and also get the dagger for Mat. Now we all know Morphine is crafty and intelligent in his own way, I'm sure he could've gotten that dagger back easily if he wanted to and walked right out of there, decimating anyone who got in his way, but instead he fled and let them sound the horn and defeat the Seanchan.

 

Secondly, when he joined the Children and went to TR, he methodically lead children away and disposed of them so Perrin and the others wouldn't have to fight so many in the future. What a kind, considerate man he is! smile.gif

 

And then at Cairhien! He practically gave Rand the answer of how to cleanse Saidin! Out of all the places he could have cut Rand with that dagger and killed him, a stab in the shoulder, a nick on a finger or something, he went straight for that wound infected with the Shadow's taint. Coincidence? I think not!

 

So see, yeah, he is still a villain, in his own way, but I think he could possibly, and cryptically, be helping Rand and the others to defeat the DO. Then after that is done, he will concentrate on killing them.

 

Like I said before, I don't really believe this myself, but it does strike me as a possibility.

 

Nice theory but i dont think it is so.

Fain works for Fain. He will happily kill everyone including the DO if he gets the chance.

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Nice theory but i dont think it is so.

Fain works for Fain. He will happily kill everyone including the DO if he gets the chance.

Well of course he works for himself, no denying that at all. And like I said, he does want to kill the good guys, just that he may want to kill the shadow even more, since it was the DO that made him this way. I know he blames rand as well, but he also blames the DO, and probably to a larger extent since he was the one who actually did the deed. So having said that, I think it could be possible that he is, at least subconciously, trying to help Rand win while at the same getting shots in on him in the process and being a thorn in his side. Then after the DO is defeated, if he lives, he will concentrate fully on killing Rand and the others.

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I have to say this is quite interesting. One also have to remember that Fain is no longer just Fain, he is also Mordeth. And as far as i know Mordeth does not hate Rand.

 

It would be logical for him to help Rand. If you consider the old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" it would make perfect sense for Fain to help Rand destroy the dark one since Rand will die in the process according to the prophecy.

 

On the other hand, Fain does not seem to be a creature which acts logically..

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I think the main reason that the theory is considered unlikely is your wording "fighting for the Light". I think the theory is actually a sound one insofar as Fain may end up actually helping against the DO, certainly not, as you have already said, helping Rand and co. as he is just as likely to knife them all as he is the DO.

 

But yeah, probable he will have a role to play in the DO's downfall.

 

After all, as Anton mentioned above, he also has Mordeth somewhere in there, and Mordeth was using whatever the Shadar Logoth taint was to fight the Shadow, which is a plus.

 

Still, it is impossible to predict Fain's actions, he is completely and utterly insane, he could end up taking on a Leviathan of the Aryth Ocean and miss the Last Battle completely. (see what I did there? :tongue:)

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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Plus at the end of TGS after killing the worm Fain says that he guesses it is time to go kill Al'Thor.

 

He is most certainly working against the shadow. He loves killing Fade's and would happily kill any of the Forsaken he could get his hands on but he is just nuttier than a fruitcake. He will be happy killing whichever is closest o him at the time.

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Pretty sure that Fain has always been the Gollum of this story. That is, he's a villain, but he inadvertantly helps in the resolution of the plot because of his particular psychosis.

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Heheh yeah I agree. Maybe my wording is inaccurate. He's not 'Fighting for the Light', but he is fighting against the DO, if only for his own purpose, and in proxy aiding the light. And yeah, he is unpredictible and his logic is twisted, so its impossible to predict how he thinks. And while Fain is a Darkfriend and want to kill Rand, Mordeth just wants power and to defeat the DO. So it is possible that Fain is trying to kill Rand and the others, Mordeth is preventing him from doing it because their combined hatred for the shadow is stronger than Fain's forced loyalty. So maybe in Cairhien, Fain was trying to kill Rand, but Mordeth stepped in, somehow sensing the DO's taint like how Mashadar was attracted to it during the cleansing, and guided the hand to Rand's wound trying to get rid of the taint. But instead of getting rid the taint, it just battled it and gave Rand the answer to cleansing Saidin as a result.

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Hmmm...Mordeth's motivations for turning Aridhol are definitely questionable. Hardly Light methods were used, it is more akin to the Whitecloak philosophy of rooting out DF's no matter the true nature of the victims (i.e.; not being DFs) - probably this is why Fain attached himself to them so early on. The destruction of Aridhol is interesting in that Mordeth himself was rather a dark shade of the Light himself, reminding me somewhat of the Prophet (who was Forsaken-enthralled) leading me to suspect Ishamael using Mordeth as a proxy for the destruction of Aridhol.

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I always thought that the Children started from a few who survived the death of Aridhol, or were transformed into what they are by such people poisoning their minds. But that's another story. We're not talking about Mordeth's motives durring the fall of Aridhol, we're talking about his current motives and how they influence Fain.

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I think the main reason that the theory is considered unlikely is your wording "fighting for the Light".

 

This can be reworded into "fighting against the shadow", which ties into what Anton said about the enemy of my enemy being my friend. Pretty cool theory, makes sense to me!

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I was meaning that Fain is essentially made up of three entities.

 

1) Fain - (Darkfriend) Peddler ... = Dark, albeit his origins are unclear as to how/why he became a DF.

2) Mordeth Fain - Extremist Light Apostle (Dark Methodology in uprooting DFs in Aridhol; not a native of Aridhol) = undeniably Dark-Light (does Mashadar hate Mordeth as the essense of suspicion/hatred of the people of Aridhol, or is it controlled by him?)

3) Machin Shin Fain - Ways Taint, probably-related-to/is/a-reflection-of the DO's taint on saidin... = Dark

 

That being said, Fain has found a way to bypass the DO's control through the medium of Shadar Logoth's former denizen(s) (at least one of them, in any case). Fighting for the Light, I'd say no unless if you mean to say the Whitecloaks served the Light wholly; potentially helping the Light accidentally, yes.

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Mordeth had the very same mantality the Children exhibitted, doing dark things truly in the name of the light. Now it wasn't that he didn't desire power and doing dark things, but in his mind he wholly believed he was doing the right thing, just like the Children of Light. And now that he's merged with Fain, we have two soul essentially working both with and gainst each other. Machin Shin is not part of the equation. It avoided them, as RJ said, out of prfessional curiosity, in a sense. They are alike, in some ways. The helped each other. It kept Rand and them from persuing Morphine, who was setting up for it a possible meal if they stepped through.

 

So like I said, we have Fain, who hates Rand and the DO, but has a forced loyalty to the DO, and we have Mordeth, who doesn't care about Rand, but hates the DO and wants power for himself. Well their combined hatred for the DO is more powerful than Fain's forced loyalty and M ordeths lust for power, so it may be that they are out to help defeat him before moving on to the other things they want, like killing Rand and stuff.

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Like has been already stated, I've always found it fairly apparent that Fain is somewhat of a "Gollum" analog in this story. While decidedly darker than Gollum and with no remorse, he is quite a bit more evil than Gollum, however, the similarities are fairly in your face.

 

Someone who was used quite horribly by the Evil Master (Sauron in Gollum's case, DO for Fain), both are targeted by both the Light and Dark, both have dual personalities, etc... I could go on for awhile with the comparisons.. the main point is that Fain is going to be necessary for the triumph of the Light at TG. I don't know whether we'll like what he does, but whatever it is, I feel certain that it will be linchpin important. I'm somewhat partial to the throw Fain into the Bore to push the DO back enough to seal the Bore, but I could also see him killing Rand, killing Moridin, to I don't know what. I only know it will be necessary for the Light's victory. At least my two cents.

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I used to have a theory that the dark one was a spirit and needed a human body to act as his vessel, and that Fain was being transformed and prepared to act as this vessel.

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fain will be the new bogeyman when the last battle is just a memory.his name will be used to scare the timid.

people will scratch his mark doors.or he'll scratch it himself.FAIN IN 2016

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Like has been already stated, I've always found it fairly apparent that Fain is somewhat of a "Gollum" analog in this story. While decidedly darker than Gollum and with no remorse, he is quite a bit more evil than Gollum, however, the similarities are fairly in your face.

 

Someone who was used quite horribly by the Evil Master (Sauron in Gollum's case, DO for Fain), both are targeted by both the Light and Dark, both have dual personalities, etc... I could go on for awhile with the comparisons.. the main point is that Fain is going to be necessary for the triumph of the Light at TG. I don't know whether we'll like what he does, but whatever it is, I feel certain that it will be linchpin important. I'm somewhat partial to the throw Fain into the Bore to push the DO back enough to seal the Bore, but I could also see him killing Rand, killing Moridin, to I don't know what. I only know it will be necessary for the Light's victory. At least my two cents.

No offense, but duh. Everyone has known this since book two. We know has a part to play in TG and that rather if for good or ill is still up in the air. What we are talking about are his motives and how Mordeth is influencing Fain and vice versa. Like why he stabbed Rand in his wound, the one place the dagger wouldn't kill him, when anywhere else rand would not have survived. You could say it was ta'veren-ness, but I also think it has to do with Mordeth being drawn to attacking the taint in Rand's wound.

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Well you may say duh, but one of the key things about Gollum, and any character comparisons, etc. is that while he may have helped, he never wanted to or tried to. The idea of Fain deciding to help the Light so he can defeat the Shadow first doesn't really make much sense, in my eyes. Fain hates both the Shadow and Rand equally, I think. Both have wronged him terribly, in his eyes. He doesn't care who dies first, or if he happens to help one side or the other in doing so. I tend to think that Fain will help the Light win at the end, but only on accident, never with purpose.

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Well you may say duh, but one of the key things about Gollum, and any character comparisons, etc. is that while he may have helped, he never wanted to or tried to. The idea of Fain deciding to help the Light so he can defeat the Shadow first doesn't really make much sense, in my eyes. Fain hates both the Shadow and Rand equally, I think. Both have wronged him terribly, in his eyes. He doesn't care who dies first, or if he happens to help one side or the other in doing so. I tend to think that Fain will help the Light win at the end, but only on accident, never with purpose.

Fain, yes. But we are not just talking about plain ol Fain anymore. We are also dealing with Mordeth, who doesn't really even know Rand aside from that brief encounter in SL. Mordeth has hated the shadow all his life, a brief encounter with three random guys isn't make him change his tune and suddenly hate them when they didn't really do anything to him. So Mordeth's and Fain's combined hatred for the DO is going to be stronger than just Fain's hatered for Rand.

 

Combine that with that Fain wants to kill Rand himself, if the DO does it, he won't get the chance, and without Rand, the DO will escape and they both he is beyond them and will end them. I know Morphine is crazy, but crazy doesn't mean stupid. Go after the big fish you hate the most, then go after smaller fish you hate.

Edited by Edynol

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Mordeth may be a part of Fain now, true, but when we get those rare glimpses into Fain's POV, what is he thinking about? Is it defeating the Shadow? Or is it destroying Rand? Whenever we see Fain's POV, the Shadow is something he hates, yes, but usually he seems to be more annoyed that they are getting in the way of Fain achieving what he desires. And what is that? Causing Rand as much pain and suffering as possible, and then to kill him.

 

These POVs aren't here by chance, and what he's thinking isn't just random thoughts. This is showing us Fain's main motivation in life, and well, it's to make Rand's as miserable as possible before he finally kills Rand. Fain would be more likely to make an alliance with the Shadow before one with the Light, IMO, for this simple reason.

Edited by DaoineSidhe

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Just on the dwelling of Fain/Gollum, while the similarities are, well, "duh" obvious, I think Edynol is correct in not focusing on this connection, but exploring the Mordeth aspect.

 

Fain, while similar to Gollum, is NOT the WoT Gollum.

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 8th, 2010

TOM Signing Report - Sarayne (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. The scene in Towers of Midnight with Padan Fainwas originally written differently, and when I submitted it to Harriet she said, "Oh no, he's much crazier than that!" So I changed it accordingly.

 

Bold is mine.

 

Also some more facts about Fain's nature.

 

He is not really combined with Machin Shin.

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 9th, 1996

ACOS Signing Report - Erica Sadun (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

What is Fain?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Mordeth + person. Mordeth is a human-made evil. The Black Wind gets along with Mordeth because of professional courtesy. Fain is anti-Forsaken as well as anti-Rand. He has a lot of skills and abilities outside of channeling. He can not channel.

 

 

This one is interesting, as it confirms Mordeth has some influence of Fain.

 

INTERVIEW: Sep 3rd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Emma (Verbatim)

 

TED HERMAN

Why did Padan Fain go to Falme and why did he leave before Rand arrived?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

He was trying to gain a power base. His early attempts to do things, were by siding he is trying to get close to someone in power, to influence him. Remember Padan Fain is also Mordeth, and Mordeth was a counselor, Mordeth was a guy who whispered poison in the ear of the king, and had a great deal of power because of it. So Padan Fain has this part of him that wants to influence power and that is what he was doing there. There are these invaders and what rumors says about them is correct.

 

Note: Fain did not actually leave before Rand arrived.

 

Fain is going after Rand not because he hates him more, but because Rand is the "easier" target. He is just as likely to try and hurt the Shadow as he is Rand, he just thinks killing the DO would be much harder than killing Rand. Which provides interesting possibilities, since Fain has not witnessed post-VoG Rand, Fain might think Rand is now too strong, and choose to go for an easier target in the Forsaken.

 

His abiding concerns are hatred of Rand al'Thor (and to a lesser degree Mat and Perrin) because he blames them for what the Dark One did to him in order to turn him into the Shadow's Hound, and hatred for the Dark One because of what the Dark One did to him. He goes after Rand because Rand is the easiest target in his mind, but if he can take a swipe at the Dark One or the Dark One's minions in some way that he felt would cause real harm, he'd leap at it.
Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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Hrm... I don't know how much there is a truly differing POV for Fain/Mordeth to have.. If you remember, when FainDeth is talking to the young boy and his mother, his voices switch multiple times during it, so at least some of it was properly Mordeth territory, but while his accents change, his stream of thought doesn't seem to. Although I do think that the dichotomy of FainDeth's existence will play an important role, I lean more towards it being something akin to Saidin cleansing/Shadar Logoth interaction than one side supporting the Light.

 

edit: To Barid bel Medar: fair enough, no more Gollum references.

Edited by DaoineSidhe

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I think you may be on to something. I have thought for a while That Padan/Mordeth may be the one to kill the dark one. Padan Fain hates the dark one for what he had to go through and Mordeth fought the Shadow. Padan/mordeth has said that he knows how to kill the dark one. It has also has been said that Mordeth is a different kind of evil. In Rands Wound the two evils fight each other.

 

My theory is that in the end Padan/Mordeth will kill the dark one and become the new dark one or the new greatest evil. Rand will lock him away like the old dark one.

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I have to say this is quite interesting. One also have to remember that Fain is no longer just Fain, he is also Mordeth. And as far as i know Mordeth does not hate Rand.

 

 

 

Mordeth feeds on hate, as did Mashadar, which was the embodiment of distrust, hate, and greed, among other things. If anything, being mixed with Mordeth should make his hate for Rand even more great.

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