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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
JesusJuice

Lets talk about sex...

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What was Jordan's problem with sex? I have never seen such avoidance of it in my life. Seriously, when Rand and Aviendha do it for the first time I had to read over it a few times, it was so vaguely written I was like ''Wha..?'' Or when ''Rand and Elayne get it on, he changed character perspectives from ONE PARAGRAPH TO ANOTHER. It was like he was desperate to get out of the situation! I could never comprehend how could describe acts of ultra violence, then suddenly thinking the audience cant handle a bit of sex... I find it pretty funny, I don't think the word sex is ever actually said is it?

Edited by JesusJuice

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Sex scenes by themselves don't add anything to the story, sure he could have written pages describing every moan and touch and whatever, but it would have been completely gratuitous. What does the reader gain out of a description of how the characters have sex except for some voyeuristic titillation?

Edited by Azrayne

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what does the reader gain from a detailed description of a fight scene?

 

by your logic, surely the last few chapters of Fires of Heaven could have been consolidated into this:

"Rand fought Rahvin and killed him"

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What does the reader gain from a fight scene? The whole series is about conflict and warfare, a lot of the characters are, in many ways, defined by how they fight (or at the least, it's an essential aspect of their identity), and a large number of major plot points and decisive moments happen during combat of one form or another.

 

On the other hand, nobody picks up an epic fantasy and says 'boy, I hope this book has some really hot and steamy sex scenes.' (ok, some people probably do, but they're a minority) Nothing important happened when Rand and Elayne had sex for the first time, except that they had sex and she got pregnant. A detailed description of the night would add no additional information or insight into this.

 

Having romance and relationships is necessary to flesh out the characters and describe realistic interactions between them, but actually going into detail about sex doesn't add anything towards that goal, unless something specific happens that describes their relationship or is somehow connected with the plot.

 

If you really need to see your favorite characters get hot and sweaty, the internet is packed full of erotic fan-fiction (written by aforementioned minority), read one of those.

Edited by Azrayne

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plus it is all about choices they have to pay a price of standing for light. that includes the emotional price. You have to face the fear of losing a loved one.

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this is "epic" fantasy. not "erotic" fantasy. If the author is a but sqeamish when it comes to sex it doesnt make a difference to the overall story. so why is it so bloody nessesary?

 

and the reasons for fight scenes is that fight scenes are a part of "epic" fantasy while sex scenes are not. so they are kind of expected when people pick up a book in the genre.

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personaly i thought the dragon spear stuck in the chair the first time min and rand got it on was graphic enough for the whole series =P

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Because Jordan's American, and in America extreme violence is PG-13 and sex is R. Sex is considered far more adult than violence.

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Because Jordan's American, and in America extreme violence is PG-13 and sex is R. Sex is considered far more adult than violence.

 

I always found that funny, considering that sex is natural, fun and healthy.

 

Comes with the puritanical roots I guess.

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Jordan had NO problem writing graphic sex scenes. See his "Fallon" trilogy, or as Pseudonym mentioned above, Jordan's Conan novels. I'm just guessing he kept it PG-13 to appeal to a broader reader base. The lack in the WoT books never bothered me personally.

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Because Jordan's American, and in America extreme violence is PG-13 and sex is R. Sex is considered far more adult than violence.

 

This right here. We have to read through such carnage and torture... but Rand putting his hand on Elayne's breast? gasp!! This is a family novel!

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I don't think I could read a Jordan sex scene without laughing, given how bizarre his attitude is towards women. Not to mention the ankle thing. He probably wrote ankle fetish erotic literature under a pseudonym :|

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Who needs actually sex scenes with all the spanking going on. It is quite clear what his "fetish" erotica would be...

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Given all the blushing and spanking that goes on I'm pretty glad he didn't try to tackle a steamy love scene in WoT. Don't really think the story needs it either. Most writers (not just fantasy) deal with the subject pretty badly in my view.

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Jordan had NO problem writing graphic sex scenes. See his "Fallon" trilogy, or as Pseudonym mentioned above, Jordan's Conan novels. I'm just guessing he kept it PG-13 to appeal to a broader reader base. The lack in the WoT books never bothered me personally.

 

QFT. Anyone who's read anything by Jordan besides WoT knows he has NO PROBLEM WHAT SO EVER getting VERY GRAPHIC about his sex. He toned it down in this series primarially to get younger readers, probably. Though he did say that the Fallon series was edited to amp up his sex scenes and turn them into Victorian porn, which he wasn't a fan of. Conan also has PLENTY of sex.

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Jordan had NO problem writing graphic sex scenes. See his "Fallon" trilogy, or as Pseudonym mentioned above, Jordan's Conan novels. I'm just guessing he kept it PG-13 to appeal to a broader reader base. The lack in the WoT books never bothered me personally.

 

QFT. Anyone who's read anything by Jordan besides WoT knows he has NO PROBLEM WHAT SO EVER getting VERY GRAPHIC about his sex. He toned it down in this series primarially to get younger readers, probably. Though he did say that the Fallon series was edited to amp up his sex scenes and turn them into Victorian porn, which he wasn't a fan of. Conan also has PLENTY of sex.

 

^This.

 

I know it upsets people to hear this, but I don't care. I was well into my adult years when I started reading the WoT books, the same year they came out. I read tEotW at the recomendation of a friend. I would otherwise likely not have seen the books for a number of years, because they were marketed to a Young Adult audience. Like I said, I know that drives people nuts, though I am not clear why. But a fact is a fact.

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Jordan had NO problem writing graphic sex scenes. See his "Fallon" trilogy, or as Pseudonym mentioned above, Jordan's Conan novels. I'm just guessing he kept it PG-13 to appeal to a broader reader base. The lack in the WoT books never bothered me personally.

 

QFT. Anyone who's read anything by Jordan besides WoT knows he has NO PROBLEM WHAT SO EVER getting VERY GRAPHIC about his sex. He toned it down in this series primarially to get younger readers, probably. Though he did say that the Fallon series was edited to amp up his sex scenes and turn them into Victorian porn, which he wasn't a fan of. Conan also has PLENTY of sex.

 

^This.

 

I know it upsets people to hear this, but I don't care. I was well into my adult years when I started reading the WoT books, the same year they came out. I read tEotW at the recomendation of a friend. I would otherwise likely not have seen the books for a number of years, because they were marketed to a Young Adult audience. Like I said, I know that drives people nuts, though I am not clear why. But a fact is a fact.

 

Very true. The books were a huge part of my younger years and as such will always have a special place. I've often wondered if the series would have had the same impact on me if I had started reading later in life.

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Sex is fun, healthy and natural for adults, but not a very emotionally healthy activity for children.

 

Violence is fun, healthy and natural for children; the use of hitting and biting during play and to resolve conflicts are developmental milestones for every normal child. But it's not a very emotionally healthy activity for adults.

 

Adults, unlike children, are supposed to be able to keep themselves separate from the ideas and representations they see. As adults, we can see the horror and gore of a battlefield, or that acts and aftermath of a serial killer, and recognize the elements of fiction and fantasy within them. Children lack a sense of their own mortality, or the mortality of others. They can't internalize the full meaning of the violence they are exposed to, and they can't really reproduce it either, so they are emotionally insulated from the effects of seeing such violence that might traumatize someone who is not so insulated. Running around hitting each other with sticks is not the same as hacking at one another with swords, even if that's what the kids are declaring and imagining. And as they age, as they become capable of really reproducing the violence they see, they also become more aware of their own mortality and that of others. They begin to understand where and why violence is wrong. Sex is different. Even very young children can emulate sex if they see it. And sex is not merely an emotional or intellectual affair, there are physiological and hormonal effects that occur during and after sex that can and usually do have profound impacts on emotions and thoughts. Children understand ideas like love, commitment, and bonding and so are not emotionally insulated from the effects of sex, whether the mere image of it, or the inevitable attempt to reproduce it in their imaginative play.

 

In short, the critics of ratings systems that rate violence as more socially acceptable and sex as less socially acceptable are viewing things from an adult's point of view. Violence is a primitive force in society, capable of being used, understood and discussed by even the simplest intellect and underdeveloped morality. Sex is a much more refined force in society, which plays across a wider range of human emotions and social expectations. It's much more subtle and manipulative, and therefore requires much more maturity and responsibility to be appropriately displayed and interpreted.

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Having read his Conan works, I don't think it was his inability to write the scenes. The romance & sex in WoT is not the major theme of the stories. It IS a big part of Conan, and that's why it's there.

 

As for how Rand + Elayne getting it on, I thought it was a fantastic, clever, and very funny way of doing it. The Rand + Avi scene I thought was well done without being gratuitous.

 

Anyhow, there are plenty of erotic books, websites, movies, and magazines for your needs. I don't mind at all that Wheel of Time is cleaner that way. It's similar from the sense of violence too. It doesn't get into the blood and guts like many authors do.

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