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Durinax

egwene vs elayne (political arcs)

  

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  1. 1. which was better?



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Even if they knew nothing about the floors, they only found it because the Kin lead them there. Again, she was completely unnecessary there.

 

How did they find the kin again? See you can not just take certain people out of the equation and think things will magically turn out the same. Multiple futures based on decisions and actions have been a major them in the WoT. Not to mention once again only Elayne and Nyn where in on the original "need" search. Of those two Elayne had it right. No one had any idea how they would find the bowl, they just knew those two had to go since they were the ones who had an idea of where it was. You can only judge their decision based on the info they had at the time. They didn't know the kin existed, nor did they know Elayne's skill would become secondary to the WFs.

 

Rand 'gave' her Caemlyn, which he had 'possession' of. Rand had exclusive power over Caemlyn, he could have put anyone he chose on the throne and nobody would have been able to stop him. Therefore, he freely passed something in his possession to somebody else. What claim Elayne had to the Throne is irrelevant, if he chose to give it to someone else she couldn't have stopped him, the only difference between Elayne and Dyelin and whoever else is that Rand wanted to make babies with Elayne. If he had never met Elayne before, I doubt he would have even considered giving Caemlyn to a random princess from the white tower who was absent for months when he had a perfectly viable option right in front of him. The only reason she got the throne was because he chose her to have it. That's the definition of 'give.'

 

Sigh. You really should spend some time exploring the site before you make faulty interpretations. Your viewpoint has been disproven again and again more times than I can count over the years. You continue to ignore key facts. For the last time, no one is arguing the fact that Rand defeated Rahvin and as Steward kept things stable for a time. But contrary to your claim he could not have "put anyone he chose on the throne". The quote I provided above shows what would have happened, the high seats and general populace would have come against him. Now Rand most likely would win that battle but it would have been un utterly phyrric victory which would have weakend the lights forces condsiderably. Secondly the fact that he was Steward not King is not an in world distinction you can just brush aside. He never claimed the crown. That is a major point with political ramifications. By your answers it is quite clear you have missed most of the subtle distinctions as to why he could not "give" Elayne the throne from a cultural perspective and why Bashere states Elayne can't use Rands men to secure it. It is made perfectly clear in the text that she can be seen to take his help in winning the crown.(Yes we know, Rand defeated Rahvin and kept the peace for a time. That isn't the point.)

 

Lastly I have no idea why Elayne would be "some random princess" if her and Rand were not dating. Either way she is Daughter-Heir and could have put forth a claim. The High-Seats would not have excepted Rand "giving" the throne to anyone. Whoever it was would still have to earn the votes. Which Elayne upon returning to a city of which Dyelin had controlled for some time went on to do. Regardless I continue to provide quotes backing my points while you just offer skewed perspective after perspective. That isn't how debates work around these parts. You need to do a bit better than that.

 

This isn't a debate. A debate is two people exchanging well reasoned arguments and counter-arguments. What you're doing is plugging your ears with your fingers and throwing semantics at me. 'He didn't own caemlyn, he was only a steward!' 'He didn't give it to her because she said he didn't!'

 

As for the Kin, they found them when they went to the Inn to meet Mat and bump into Setalle Anan coming out of his room. She lectures them, they try to play Aes Sedai, she drags them off to the Kin.

 

Finally, you should stop insinuating that your higher post count somehow makes your opinion more valid. It just comes across as petty and immature. If you were confident in your point of view, you wouldn't need to resort to (rather silly) ad hominem.

Edited by Azrayne

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This isn't a debate. A debate is two people exchanging well reasoned arguments and counter-arguments. What you're doing is plugging your ears with your fingers and throwing semantics at me. 'He didn't own caemlyn, he was only a steward!' 'He didn't give it to her because she said he didn't!'

 

As for the Kin, they found them when they went to the Inn to meet Mat and bump into Setalle Anan coming out of his room. She lectures them, they try to play Aes Sedai, she drags them off to the Kin.

 

Finally, you should stop insinuating that your higher post count somehow makes your opinion more valid. It just comes across as petty and immature. If you were confident in your point of view, you wouldn't need to resort to (rather silly) ad hominem.

 

Ah come on mate, we are having a nice little conversation, no need to get peevish now. Again just spend some time searching the topic, it should be an enlightening experience. Was trying to help you out in telling you to spend some time looking around and mentioning what has been the general consensus over the years. You will find somehow that the vast majority according to you are "throwing semantics". "Semantics" that just happen to have very real ramifications in world. Not sure why you continue to ignore what is actually written. Lastly it would be nice if your "well reasoned arguement" had any basis in the text. I have provided quotes supporting my opinon. If you can do the same please go ahead.

 

We have established that Rand liberated Andor from Rahvin and policed it for some time. Not sure how my point of view can be semantics when the high seats make it clear they won't allow him to give the throne to anyone and state what they will do if he overstays his welcome(does that sound like ownership?). Or how about when he tells the High Seats...

 

LoC Ch. 16

 

Rand kept his face smooth. "I will not welcome you – this is your land, and the palace of your queen – but I am pleased you accept my invitation."

 

or

 

"I know something of the Karaethon Cycle," Abelle said. "I believe you are the Dragon Reborn, but nothing there speaks of you ruling, only fighting the Dark One at Tarmon Gai’don."..."How many times must I say I don’t want to rule Andor?

 

In addition the general populace were speaking up to drive him out of Andor and thought he had no place there. Dyelin then acts as Steward once he leaves keeping the peace and putting down rebellions. Next we have Elayne's actions in stating her claim, winning the civil war and securing the votes on her own with no help from Rand's forces. What part of that is me saying he didn't give it to her because Elayne says so? Funny thing is that is a hell of a lot of work for somoene who according to you was handed the throne months before from the person who had "ownership". You know that same person who disavows that he does in the quotes above.

 

Now to the contrary what would have happened had Elayne said she was excepting the throne from Rand? Dyelin would not have supported her and the claim would have been dead before it even started. Further along it is why she couldn't use Rand's troops to help secure the throne. These distinctions are huge in Andoran culture and I hope it makes things a bit more clear. Honestly mate, I wasn't insinuating your opinion is any less valid because you just joined. I really do think you will enjoy searching around through old threads, it's a good read and can show you the different avenues people have already gone down.

 

Not sure what your point about the Kin is above? All it does however is further illustrate how difficult it would have been to find the bowl had Elayne not been there. Why were they going to meet Mat at the Inn? Because Elayne dragged her to go apologize. She was in on the need search, was right about the building when Nynaeve had it wrong and was best with weather. That is why she had to go, the fact that it played out in a manner they didn't forsee has no bearing on what they knew when they made their initial decision. For the last time you can't just take someone out of the equation and expect the exact same result. I hate repeating myself but once again, alternate futures based on characters decision are a pretty significant item in the story.

 

Tear and Illian believed the Rand had saved them from two Foresaken who were a High Lords in both countries. But the Andorans don't have a reason to like or trust believe Rand, or believe that he killed a Foresaken in Caemlyn!

 

No, especially considering the high seats thought this...

 

LoC Ch. 16

"What does it matter who any of us speak for?" Abelle demanded. "If he killed Morgase, he will – " Abelle cut off abruptly with a grimace, then looked at Rand, not exactly in defiance, but definitely daring him to do his worst. And expecting him to....As many tales as there are mouths. Most say you killed Morgase. Many add Elayne. They say your proclamation is a mask to hide your crimes."
Edited by Suttree

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No, especially considering the high seats thought this...

 

LoC Ch. 16

"What does it matter who any of us speak for?" Abelle demanded. "If he killed Morgase, he will – " Abelle cut off abruptly with a grimace, then looked at Rand, not exactly in defiance, but definitely daring him to do his worst. And expecting him to....As many tales as there are mouths. Most say you killed Morgase. Many add Elayne. They say your proclamation is a mask to hide your crimes."

 

Towers of Midnight:

 

Gawyn felt sick. He'd suspected it the moment he'd discovered the pregnancy. "Burn me," he said. "Elayne, how could you? After what he did to our mother!"

 

"He did nothing to her," Elayne said. "I can produce witness after witness that will confirm it, Gawyn. Mother vanished before Rand liberated Caemlyn."

 

Elayne actually investigated the rumors, a few months after the fact; and managed to come up with results. The evidence was there for anyone who wanted to search for the truth. But the "good" High Seats were too shell-shocked to think straight.

Edited by Theodril

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Let's do a little defining of terminology here:

 

give/giv/

Verb: Freely transfer the possession of (something) to (someone); hand over to: "they gave her water".

 

pos·ses·sion/pəˈzeSHən/

Noun:

  • The state of having, owning, or controlling something.
  • Visible power or control over something, as distinct from lawful ownership; holding or occupancy.

Rand 'gave' her Caemlyn, which he had 'possession' of.

No. She took Caemlyn. Rand had long since left. Further, we are not talking about Caemlyn, but Andor (and its throne). Rand did not have Andor and therefore could not give it to her.
Rand had exclusive power over Caemlyn, he could have put anyone he chose on the throne and nobody would have been able to stop him.
Not even the coomoers and Lords who object? We saw rebellions in Tear and Cairhien. What will happen with them? Crushing them through military force is within his power, but is self defeating. So, what? Negotiation? Simply retreating? Further, we know Dyelin wouldn't accept being given the throne by Rand.

 

From their point of view, there was no need to act against Rahvin - he was an Andoran who had just deposed an unpopular queen. Their independence is hardly hurt by this state of affairs - it's a purely internal matter, as far as anyone has any reason to believe. Rand wasn't forced to act. He chose to, but he didn't have to. They have no reason to trust Rand, no reason to like him.

 

Tear and Illian believed the Rand had saved them from two Foresaken who were a High Lords in both countries. But the Andorans don't have a reason to like or trust believe Rand, or believe that he killed a Foresaken in Caemlyn!

In both Tear and Illian, whether or not Rand killed a Chosen is irrelevant. In both cases, Rand removed the person in charge. The High lords surrendered. Illian was left without a king, and with the power behind the throne gone, and Rand had helped Illian in the past, so he was offered the crown. The true identities of the men he killed were unimportant, as he would have taken charge afterwards anyway. Whether or not people disbelieve him when he claims they were Chosen, that doesn't change.

 

 

But she can still only do so much. She has secured her kingdom, gained Cairhien, etc. She has also made a start on recruiting a spy network, but admits the man she has in charge will need replacing eventually. How much intelligence do you think she will gather about her rivals before TG? How much disruption will TG cause? Unless she can get spies in the Shadow's camp, spying is a lower priority than TG. She is doing enough, for now. There will be more to do later but it can wait.

 

Depends on where one sees priorities. For example, Elenia's husband has a rebel army inside Andor that Elayne hasn't located yet! And there is information on an impending Shadow invasion that Elayne hasn't figured out yet.

 

Hypothetically, all she needed to do was ask Egwene for help to question the BA (the BA hunters trick of freeing them of all previous oaths, then question them) and on the invasion (Egwene knows about the Caemlyn Waygate). But that will lead us down a different discussion!

Elayne knows about the Waygate. It is, per Verin's letter, guarded and thought secure. When Elayne learnt of the invasion, she beefed up border defences. Without spies within the Shadow, she couldn't know that it was coming from the Waygate. Dyelin has no way to infiltrate the Shadow. What spymaster has? Also, it was only her interrogation that led to the discovery of the invasion to begin with. Even if she did contact Egwene, borrow the OR, free the BA from their Oaths, she still has to torture or coerce the information out of them. And they could still lie. By presenting them with one of the Chosen she gains the opportunity to get them to divulge information, it bypasses the Oaths, and they have no reason to lie.

 

 

 

Of course she had a right to use the ter'angreal. Her life is more important than a mere trinket, so it is entirely unreasonable to say she should not use the trinket to protect herself. Also, why is the first point worth considering? Running away itself presents risks - they can attack right then and there. Attempting to bluff is the best way to escape without things turning violent. It didn't succeed, but the attempt was the best course of action she had.

 

Re: Mat's terangreal: I won't go into an ownership rights discussion here. The point is that she electively used what did not belong to her in a situation that was not life-threatening (as in someone coming after her in her own bedroom and her being forced to defend herself).

 

As to the second point, it was to show that her original plan (and all the back ups and precautions) were on handling/questioning one Black Ajah prisoner. It was not a plan designed to deal with a threat of 3 BA and 2 Darkfriends. So, the original plan was not appropriate to deal with the new threats.

Elayne was attacked by people who meant to kill her. What is that if not life threatening? She was not using the ter'angreal until she was attacked. Given that Mat had loaned it to her, she had a right to keep it with her. As for the new threats, that is as a result of changing circumstances. Further, she did adapt the plan as best she could to fit the new circumstances. Also, the change is circumstances was, as already noted, very unlikely. So why should she plan for things changing in unlikely ways? What emergency precautions do you take when you leave the house? Do you wear body armour? Because the chances of being attacked are about the same as a jailbreak during the time you're in there, so if you don't take appropriate precautions I have to say you're being very reckless.

 

 

It's not a question of TG being more important. He could have done as he wished without ruffling Andoran feathers. The throne was not his to give. By stating that he wanted to give Elayne the throne, he turns the High Seats against her, thus making her job harder - in a way that could potentially impact negatively on TG. Rand is an inexperienced politician, and under a lot of pressure. Occasional mistakes can happen. But let us not try to pretend this was not a mistake. It was.

 

Rand's problem is that he, by choice, didn't want to rule Andor. If he wanted, all he had to do was establish his bloodline. He was Tigraine's son! So, his blood is more bloody Andoran than Gaebril! But his only concern with his genetics was whether that blood prevents him from bedding Elayne, not ruling Andor.

 

The catch is that Andorans wanted their independence; and Rand worked to give it to them. They wanted him to fight the DO in Shayol Ghul, not rule Andor. Fine, would killing a Foresaken be in the Dragon's job description? Well, he did that. Would securing two kingdoms under one ruler, a homegrown one who is also an ally, serve his plan for TG? Probably! That is why I see Rand's strategy in Andor as serving TG, not ruling and governing and infringing on Andoran "independence."

 

Maybe Rahvin succeeded in leaving Andor unable to govern herself. If Andor was in shape to rule itself, Rand would not have stayed there. Maybe he should have killed Rahvin and left. But was there any guarantee that another Foresaken would not fill the vacuum?

You're dodging the point. Rand could have simply worded things better and there wouldn't have been a problem. He said he was giving the throne to Elayne, a turn of phrase which undermines her rule. By simply saying instead that the throne was Elayne's, and that she would take it when ready, he could preserve Andoran independence and worked to TG. As it is, he helped provoke a civil war.

 

 

And how many people in Camelyn saw Gaebril controlling Trollocs and Fades?

 

There was a battle with the one power; and then there was a battle between Aiel and Shadowspan that left thousands of corpses. I would presume that Caemlyn's population is aware that a battle took place in the inner city; and they would see the bodies being disposed of.

That doesn't answer my question. The mere fact of there being Trollocs in Caemlyn doesn't mean Gaebril was commanding them. We know Gaebril was Rahvin. Rand knows. This knowledge is not widespread. There is a lot of rumour around, besides, and people don't believe stuff just because the DR proclaims it. Rand killed the man calling himself King of Andor. There were Trollocs. That indicates the Shadow was operating in Caemlyn, it does not indicate that Gaebril was a Chosen.

 

 

 

A contradiction, surely? If one wished to be the power behind the throne, as opposed to the power on it, accepting the throne works against ones desires. If you want to be the power behind the throne, then you would not accept it.

 

That's like someone who rejects to become a billionaire and instead wants to be the billionaire's top CEO or advisor! Maybe Dyelin is like that. I don't know!

What?

 

 

Dyelin was not raised as a better candidate. She was a candidate who is flawed, but for different reasons.

 

Agreed! She is flawed for political reasons, not her capacity to lead the spy-network.

Rather, political reasons impact on her capacity to lead the spy network. She is a bad candidate. So you don't have a good candidate. So who shall Elayne choose to be her new spymaster? Maybe she should just put an advert in the local paper and see what happens.

 

 

 

 

And the problem presented by Morgase's return was raised - she is someone else Elayne cannot be seen to overrely on.

 

With Morgase in town, people would no longer consider Dyelin a power behind the throne.

Why not? Elayne is now seen as ruled by two women rather than just one. Either of them works against her, as do both together. She needs distance from them.

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No. She took Caemlyn. Rand had long since left. Further, we are not talking about Caemlyn, but Andor (and its throne). Rand did not have Andor and therefore could not give it to her.

 

He left in person, but the city was still held by his people after he shut down numerous plots by others to seize the throne. Just because he wasn't there physically doesn't mean that it wasn't his influence that kept the Throne vacant.

 

Answer this. What would have happened if Rand had left as soon as he killed Rahvin? Just packed up and left, taking his people with him? Do you think the throne would have been sitting there empty, waiting for Elayne, when they didn't even know for sure that she was alive?

 

Secondly, ask yourself, what would happen if Rand 'didnt' want Elayne on the throne? People Rand doesn't want on thrones have a habit of not ending up on them.

 

I think you guys need to stop paying attention to what the characters said, and direct your attention to what they actually did. For all of Elayne's protestations that she took it in her own right, not because of Rand, the reality is that without him it wouldn't have been sitting there for her to take. She protested about how he worded it because it looks bad for her to be given a throne she was supposed to inherit directly from her mother, and she's right, but however it looks doesn't make it less true.

 

Hell, why do you think she went to so much effort to hide who her baby daddy was? Because he's the dragon reborn? Yes, of course that's part of it. But there's a definite 'don't want people to think that Rand gave her the throne because they did it' tone to the whole thing.

Edited by Azrayne

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No. She took Caemlyn. Rand had long since left. Further, we are not talking about Caemlyn, but Andor (and its throne). Rand did not have Andor and therefore could not give it to her.

 

He left in person, but the city was still held by his people after he shut down numerous plots by others to seize the throne. Just because he wasn't there physically doesn't mean that it wasn't his influence that kept the Throne vacant.

 

Answer this. What would have happened if Rand had left as soon as he killed Rahvin? Just packed up and left, taking his people with him? Do you think the throne would have been sitting there empty, waiting for Elayne, when they didn't even know for sure that she was alive?

In that event, she could have returned to Caemlyn immediately and established herself as queen. The AS refused to allow her to return with the embassy in LoC Prologue, but if Rand wasn't there then the reason for sending the embassy is gone, but so is the reason for holding Elayne back from going.

 

 

Secondly, ask yourself, what would happen if Rand 'didnt' want Elayne on the throne? People Rand doesn't want on thrones have a habit of not ending up on them.
He would try to remove her or prevent her from gaining it to begin with. Possibly requiring military force. This scenario has been discussed - while Rand has the military power to defeat Andor, victory could be long and costly, and decidedly pyrrhic on the verge of TG.

 

 

 

I think you guys need to stop paying attention to what the characters said, and direct your attention to what they actually did. For all of Elayne's protestations that she took it in her own right, not because of Rand, the reality is that without him it wouldn't have been sitting there for her to take. She protested about how he worded it because it looks bad for her to be given a throne she was supposed to inherit directly from her mother, and she's right, but however it looks doesn't make it less true.
Rand's people had possession of the city, but not most of the country. To say that he was in a position to give her the throne is rather inaccurate. At best he gave her a secure base from which to establish her rule. The useful thing about paying attention to what characters say is that you have a basis for your claims beyond pure guesswork.

 

 

 

Hell, why do you think she went to so much effort to hide who her baby daddy was? Because he's the dragon reborn? Yes, of course that's part of it. But there's a definite 'don't want people to think that Rand gave her the throne because they did it' tone to the whole thing.
No, it was because knowing she was carrying the DR's children put her and her children at risk. Nothing to do with giving her the throne.

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This isn't a debate. A debate is two people exchanging well reasoned arguments and counter-arguments. What you're doing is plugging your ears with your fingers and throwing semantics at me. 'He didn't own caemlyn, he was only a steward!' 'He didn't give it to her because she said he didn't!'

 

As for the Kin, they found them when they went to the Inn to meet Mat and bump into Setalle Anan coming out of his room. She lectures them, they try to play Aes Sedai, she drags them off to the Kin.

 

Finally, you should stop insinuating that your higher post count somehow makes your opinion more valid. It just comes across as petty and immature. If you were confident in your point of view, you wouldn't need to resort to (rather silly) ad hominem.

 

Ah come on mate, we are having a nice little conversation, no need to get peevish now. Again just spend some time searching the topic, it should be an enlightening experience. Was trying to help you out in telling you to spend some time looking around and mentioning what has been the general consensus over the years. You will find somehow that the vast majority according to you are "throwing semantics". "Semantics" that just happen to have very real ramifications in world. Not sure why you continue to ignore what is actually written. Lastly it would be nice if your "well reasoned arguement" had any basis in the text. I have provided quotes supporting my opinon. If you can do the same please go ahead.

 

We have established that Rand liberated Andor from Rahvin and policed it for some time. Not sure how my point of view can be semantics when the high seats make it clear they won't allow him to give the throne to anyone and state what they will do if he overstays his welcome(does that sound like ownership?). Or how about when he tells the High Seats...

 

LoC Ch. 16

 

Rand kept his face smooth. "I will not welcome you – this is your land, and the palace of your queen – but I am pleased you accept my invitation."

 

or

 

"I know something of the Karaethon Cycle," Abelle said. "I believe you are the Dragon Reborn, but nothing there speaks of you ruling, only fighting the Dark One at Tarmon Gai’don."..."How many times must I say I don’t want to rule Andor?

 

In addition the general populace were speaking up to drive him out of Andor and thought he had no place there. Dyelin then acts as Steward once he leaves keeping the peace and putting down rebellions. Next we have Elayne's actions in stating her claim, winning the civil war and securing the votes on her own with no help from Rand's forces. What part of that is me saying he didn't give it to her because Elayne says so? Funny thing is that is a hell of a lot of work for somoene who according to you was handed the throne months before from the person who had "ownership". You know that same person who disavows that he does in the quotes above.

 

Now to the contrary what would have happened had Elayne said she was excepting the throne from Rand? Dyelin would not have supported her and the claim would have been dead before it even started. Further along it is why she couldn't use Rand's troops to help secure the throne. These distinctions are huge in Andoran culture and I hope it makes things a bit more clear. Honestly mate, I wasn't insinuating your opinion is any less valid because you just joined. I really do think you will enjoy searching around through old threads, it's a good read and can show you the different avenues people have already gone down.

 

Not sure what your point about the Kin is above? All it does however is further illustrate how difficult it would have been to find the bowl had Elayne not been there. Why were they going to meet Mat at the Inn? Because Elayne dragged her to go apologize. She was in on the need search, was right about the building when Nynaeve had it wrong and was best with weather. That is why she had to go, the fact that it played out in a manner they didn't forsee has no bearing on what they knew when they made their initial decision. For the last time you can't just take someone out of the equation and expect the exact same result. I hate repeating myself but once again, alternate futures based on characters decision are a pretty significant item in the story.

 

Tear and Illian believed the Rand had saved them from two Foresaken who were a High Lords in both countries. But the Andorans don't have a reason to like or trust believe Rand, or believe that he killed a Foresaken in Caemlyn!

 

No, especially considering the high seats thought this...

 

LoC Ch. 16

"What does it matter who any of us speak for?" Abelle demanded. "If he killed Morgase, he will – " Abelle cut off abruptly with a grimace, then looked at Rand, not exactly in defiance, but definitely daring him to do his worst. And expecting him to....As many tales as there are mouths. Most say you killed Morgase. Many add Elayne. They say your proclamation is a mask to hide your crimes."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Suttree, as much as I remember from last year that issue was discussed at length, but there was hardly consensus about it afterwards. Some people held one view, others other. Beside, discussions between fans are hardly enough for something to be canon rightJ?

There is one issue that I feel was glossed over in those discussions and that is Rands’ own opinion of it and how it affected his approach to maters of andoran politics.

Rand was hell-bent on giving Elayne Andor unaffected by all what was happening i.e. undivided, with authority of crown unaffected (not lowered) by his presence and actions. In that he acted as would a boy in love in Two Rivers act towards girlfriend rather than aspiring political leader and it caused him problems. He put less effort in protecting his own authority than hers, so it was only natural that it increased resistance against him. If he had established himself as overlord, taking (and demanding) oaths of fealty as he did in Cairhien, well, andorans might have started war against him, but not necessarily. In other words, he put himself in position of placeholder for Elayne. That either gave impression, which he consistently confirmed, that his presence and authority will be only temporary and therefore that standing against him is less likely to produce negative consequences (at least in long run) or that he is simply lying. If he was less concerned with keeping his sort-of-girlfriend (as he wasn’t sure where they stood) authority among her countrymen untouched he might have had less problems with them.

You quoted his conversation with Dyelin, Abelle, Elorien and Luan from LoC Ch. 16, but that is stand of four Houses, and as you may recall from Ch. 1 - 6 great Houses were with him and vying for his favor. Of that four only Dyelin was for Elayne, the rest were for her to put forward claim for throne. I would also liked to remind you that during Succession Elayne had 12 Houses set against her and 4 headed by minors or near enough behind her. If Rand had wanted to install other queen he could find amenable candidate - one ready to swear fealty to Dragon - amongst them. Elenia and Naean for sure, possibly Elorien (when faced with choice accept Morgase’ daughter for queen or Dragon for liege lord) and possibly some of others who could gather adequate support in realm. Such move would have prevented forming of unified front against him for sure, even if such possibility was realistically on the table from beginning. As for popular revolt against him – yes, that might have been option, but all we saw was talk Elayne heard on way to Caemlyn. Weeks after he was last seen in city and weeks after Dyelin took regency. Seeing her do that surely put more courage in common folk. Besides, those were people in Caemlyn region, where influence of throne is greatest as well as its popularity. Their opinion is not necessarily shared by peasants on estates of provincial nobility. Also I would liked to remind you of one somewhat similar situation. Do you remember Mats’ conversation with Beslan in WH Ch. 28 News in a Cloth Sack? Beslan is certain that Ebou Dari are ready for uprising while Mat is skeptical.

It is worth nothing that Elayne in her last chapter of TPOD finds Aiel, Saldeans and Legion of Dragon in Caemlyn and royal palace. Despite all Dyelins’ expressed standings for independence of Andor, she was not wiling to start confrontation with them. Oh, and another thing: when Bael sees all might of 6 houses gathered around Arimyl he doesn’t have doubt that he can defeat them. In fact he is angry that Rands’ orders and Elaynes’ request forbids it.

At the end, I would sum my stand in this mater as this: Rand was limited not by what could Andorans do, but by how far was he willing to go.

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The useful thing about paying attention to what characters say is that you have a basis for your claims beyond pure guesswork.

 

Except characters have bias, and emotional involvement, and their own point of view, and sometimes just flat out lie. What people say very rarely reflects purely the truth.

 

Events, on the other hand, are fact.

 

He would try to remove her or prevent her from gaining it to begin with. Possibly requiring military force. This scenario has been discussed - while Rand has the military power to defeat Andor, victory could be long and costly, and decidedly pyrrhic on the verge of TG.

 

Military force? Really?

 

 

Rand's people had possession of the city, but not most of the country. To say that he was in a position to give her the throne is rather inaccurate. At best he gave her a secure base from which to establish her rule.

 

And if he'd given that 'secure base' to another of the candidates, they'd have had it instead of Elayne while Elayne was still in Ebou Dar.

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Rand never conquered Andor, he was merely Steward and had no right to give anything. He left the city and Dyelin was then Steward and she personally put down a claimant and rebellions with her own men. Again you seem to be missing the point, Rand rubbed everyone wrong saying he would "give" Elayne the throne and made the situation much more difficult. Either way Elayne had to put forth a claim and had to secure the proper votes. She did that all on her own. It was made very clear that Dyelin would never have thrown her support had she thought she could be handed the throne by Rand.

 

It wouldn't have really made any difference had Rand made it clear that Elayne was taking the throne of her own right. Dyelin supported Elayne inspite of Rand's mistake, because Elayne made it clear she was not accepting it from Rand, Elenia, Naen, Armylla would still have rebelled seeing as it was only Rand's presence in Andor that kept them in line, Danine would still not have acted, and all the nobles who wanted Dyelin as Queen would still have been busy with the Aes Sedai and they never questioned that Elayne was taking the throne on her own. It certainly rubbed everyone wrong, but ultimately it didn't really change anything for Elayne. What was important was for her to make it clear she was taking the throne of her own right.

 

In that event, she could have returned to Caemlyn immediately and established herself as queen. The AS refused to allow her to return with the embassy in LoC Prologue, but if Rand wasn't there then the reason for sending the embassy is gone, but so is the reason for holding Elayne back from going.

 

And in the time between word of Rahvin's death reaching Salidar and Elayne arriving in Caemlyn things will have already gone to hell. Armylla, Elenia and Naen acted as soon as Rand left Andor in LoC. Besides, the AS might have wanted to have Rand safely under their thumb before risking sending Elayne back to Caemlyn.

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For me the chapters containing Elayne since her return to Andor have been pretty much unbearable, I would gladly read about the glories of Egwene than about Elayne's stupid "babes" and her stupid kingdom. She is one character which should never even have been written into the series.

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And if he'd given that 'secure base' to another of the candidates, they'd have had it instead of Elayne while Elayne was still in Ebou Dar.

 

Then that candidate would have a secure base in Caemlyn with zero hold on the rest of the nation. In addition they would still need to secure the proper votes from the high seats. That can hardly be called being handed the throne. Once again I have provided quotes where Rand says he does not rule in Andor and yet you continue to hold to your own personnel opinion instead of what is written. By his own admission he didn't conquer Andor and on he only ever controlled Caemlyn which is far short of "owning" Andor. He can not control the High Seats and they have shown willigness to resist him should he try.

 

Elenia, Naen, Armylla would still have rebelled seeing as it was only Rand's presence in Andor that kept them in line,

 

I have admitted numerous times that Rand policed the capital for a time. People seem to forget that Dyelin was also putting down rebellions and arresting false claims in other parts of the country.

 

If Rand had wanted to install other queen he could find amenable candidate - one ready to swear fealty to Dragon - amongst them. Elenia and Naean for sure, possibly Elorien (when faced with choice accept Morgase’ daughter for queen or Dragon for liege lord) and possibly some of others who could gather adequate support in realm. Such move would have prevented forming of unified front against him for sure, even if such possibility was realistically on the table from beginning.

 

It is made clear that Andorans would not throw their support behind Rand trying to "install" anyone. A unified front when faced with a foreign threat attempting to install a ruler is just about gauraunteed. I do agree with you however on your comment about Rand. He most likely could have defeated anything Andor(although all together hey have the largest military outside of Seanchan) would have thrown against him. That as has been mentioned many times however would have been a disaster and an utterly phyrric victory with TG approaching.

Edited by Suttree

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I have admitted numerous times that Rand policed the capital for a time. People seem to forget that Dyelin was also putting down rebellions and arresting false claims in other parts of the country.

 

I know, I was just saying that Rand's mistake did not end up doing any harm like you were suggesting. Things would have turned out the same had he been more politically correct. All it did was irritate people, particularly Elayne.

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Let us just imagine that Rand did not know Elayne..in such a scenario he would not have cared if anyone becomes king or queen as long as they swear fealty to him. Rand never wanted to become king anywhere only thing was he would not allow a ruler to rule without getting promises to follow him. He waived getting that from Elayne because of his relationship with her otherwise she would have had to give it to secure the throne or else he would have denied her the throne.

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I have admitted numerous times that Rand policed the capital for a time. People seem to forget that Dyelin was also putting down rebellions and arresting false claims in other parts of the country.

 

I know, I was just saying that Rand's mistake did not end up doing any harm like you were suggesting. Things would have turned out the same had he been more politically correct. All it did was irritate people, particularly Elayne.

 

Not true, people were upset about the proclamations he put around town and it led other High Seats to dig in more against here. It made the wholes situation much more difficult and drawn out. It's also a good thing Elayne answered Dyelin as she did. Her claim would have been dead before it started if not.

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Not true, people were upset about the proclamations he put around town and it led other High Seats to dig in more against here.

 

Which High Seats? Those with Armylla would not have cared, and those who wanted Dyelin for Queen were busy with the Aes Sedai.

 

It's also a good thing Elayne answered Dyelin as she did. Her claim would have been dead before it started if not.

 

Of course, which is why the key point was what she said, not what Rand said. Dyelin never doubted Elayne, so there was no difficulty there.

Edited by Master Ablar

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Not true, people were upset about the proclamations he put around town and it led other High Seats to dig in more against here.

 

Which High Seats? Those with Armylla would not have cared, and those who wanted Dyelin for Queen were busy with the Aes Sedai.

 

The big four from the original scene that took longest to come around and Ellorien who never did...

 

"A reward offered for news of Elayne," Ellorien said flatly, her face becoming even stonier, "who is to be made queen now that Morgase is dead."

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The big four from the original scene that took longest to come around and Ellorien who never did...

 

So Abelle, Luan, Dyelin and Ellorien correct?

 

Ellorien wanted the Trakand out. It would not have mattered what Rand said. Dyelin believed Elayne straight away so there was no difficulty there. Abelle and Luan were away in the south, and they wanted Dyelin as Queen anyway. They only changed their minds when Dyelin made it clear she would not take the throne, and Elayne prooved herself a capable Queen.

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The big four from the original scene that took longest to come around and Ellorien who never did...

 

So Abelle, Luan, Dyelin and Ellorien correct?

 

Ellorien wanted the Trakand out. It would not have mattered what Rand said. Dyelin believed Elayne straight away so there was no difficulty there. Abelle and Luan were away in the south, and they wanted Dyelin as Queen anyway. They only changed their minds when Dyelin made it clear she would not take the throne, and Elayne prooved herself a capable Queen.

dyelin wasn't going to just give the throne to elayne either. I believe she says that she was making sure the Elayne was competant before fully supporting her

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13 people voted elayne. my god. what was i reading all this time

yup i did, because it was actually more political, with important compromises taking place, and other really interesting stuff, like elayne having to deal with crime, etc. Although I personally could have done without the pregnancy added bits.

 

egwenes was just too.... cut and dry, its like taking an graphing calculator and just putting in x on the graph, its straight, boring, and without any real hiccups (except being captured, but that really didnt do nothing to her, based on her political power in the camp)

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Elayne was attacked by people who meant to kill her. What is that if not life threatening? She was not using the ter'angreal until she was attacked. Given that Mat had loaned it to her, she had a right to keep it with her.

As for the new threats, that is as a result of changing circumstances. Further, she did adapt the plan as best she could to fit the new circumstances.

 

Re: Mat's terangreal, my point is that she didn't have the right to take it with her to the dungeons in the first place.

 

Re: the plan: The point is that Elayne planned to interrogate 1 BA. Elayne did not plan to fight 3 BA. It was an answer to a question about a "good plan" going wrong. It was a good plan for the intended purpose; but when faced with the new threats, Elayne continued with the old plan.

 

Pretty much like a commander fielding a strong army to face an opposing general and his army only to find that 3 armies are facing him. The original battle plan would be obsolete!

 

You're dodging the point. Rand could have simply worded things better and there wouldn't have been a problem. He said he was giving the throne to Elayne, a turn of phrase which undermines her rule. By simply saying instead that the throne was Elayne's, and that she would take it when ready, he could preserve Andoran independence and worked to TG. As it is, he helped provoke a civil war.

 

Contrary, I am not dodging the point. I am saying that Rand intended the Throne for Elayne only. He would not have accepted anyone else on it. Because Elayne would relieve him of the burdens of Andor and Cairhien and ally with him for TG. He did not trust anyone else with Andor and Cairhien.

 

 

That doesn't answer my question. The mere fact of there being Trollocs in Caemlyn doesn't mean Gaebril was commanding them. We know Gaebril was Rahvin. Rand knows. This knowledge is not widespread. There is a lot of rumour around, besides, and people don't believe stuff just because the DR proclaims it. Rand killed the man calling himself King of Andor. There were Trollocs. That indicates the Shadow was operating in Caemlyn, it does not indicate that Gaebril was a Chosen.

 

With that line of reasoning and need for everything to be explained in minute details, the series would have been 30 books. Or maybe it is that you think that Andorans are collectively stupid & would not link the simultaneous disappearance of Gaebril and the defeat of the Shadowspawn army camped inside the Inner City?

 

 

Rather, political reasons impact on her capacity to lead the spy network. She is a bad candidate. So you don't have a good candidate. So who shall Elayne choose to be her new spymaster? Maybe she should just put an advert in the local paper and see what happens.

 

Isn't there a difference between personal qualifications (intelligence, wisdom, trustworthiness, knowledge, etc.) and external factors affecting a candidate (Elayne's unwillingness to be seen as a Dyelin puppet)?

 

The point was that Dyelin had the personal qualifications for the job; but the political perception prevented her from being considered for the job.

 

 

Why not? Elayne is now seen as ruled by two women rather than just one. Either of them works against her, as do both together. She needs distance from them.

 

The same way Egwene banished Lelaine and Romanda once she secured her authority through the Declaration of War against Elaida?!

 

Yet, Elayne did not distance Morgase. She intended on giving her the 2 Rivers; but kept her in Caemlyn after the agreement with Perrin.

 

Regardless of the arguments, Elayne as a Queen should not fear any inferior's shadow. She is the bloody Queen! And she should have the self-confidence and sense of security to use strong allies, not feel the need to distance them. Just a personal perspective!

Edited by Theodril

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Isn't there a difference between personal qualifications (intelligence, wisdom, trustworthiness, knowledge, etc.) and external factors affecting a candidate (Elayne's unwillingness to be seen as a Dyelin puppet)?

 

The point was that Dyelin had the personal qualifications for the job; but the political perception prevented her from being considered for the job.

 

What makes you think Dyelin's skill set to be Spy Master so far surpass Norry's that it would offset the political drawbacks of having her in the position? There is zero evidence in the text for yout to make that judgement and your continued inability to name any candidate besides Dyelin undermines your initial point further.

Edited by Suttree

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And if he'd given that 'secure base' to another of the candidates, they'd have had it instead of Elayne while Elayne was still in Ebou Dar.

 

Then that candidate would have a secure base in Caemlyn with zero hold on the rest of the nation. In addition they would still need to secure the proper votes from the high seats. That can hardly be called being handed the throne. Once again I have provided quotes where Rand says he does not rule in Andor and yet you continue to hold to your own personnel opinion instead of what is written. By his own admission he didn't conquer Andor and on he only ever controlled Caemlyn which is far short of "owning" Andor. He can not control the High Seats and they have shown willigness to resist him should he try.

 

Elenia, Naen, Armylla would still have rebelled seeing as it was only Rand's presence in Andor that kept them in line,

 

I have admitted numerous times that Rand policed the capital for a time. People seem to forget that Dyelin was also putting down rebellions and arresting false claims in other parts of the country.

 

If Rand had wanted to install other queen he could find amenable candidate - one ready to swear fealty to Dragon - amongst them. Elenia and Naean for sure, possibly Elorien (when faced with choice accept Morgase’ daughter for queen or Dragon for liege lord) and possibly some of others who could gather adequate support in realm. Such move would have prevented forming of unified front against him for sure, even if such possibility was realistically on the table from beginning.

 

It is made clear that Andorans would not throw their support behind Rand trying to "install" anyone. A unified front when faced with a foreign threat attempting to install a ruler is just about gauraunteed. I do agree with you however on your comment about Rand. He most likely could have defeated anything Andor(although all together hey have the largest military outside of Seanchan) would have thrown against him. That as has been mentioned many times however would have been a disaster and an utterly phyrric victory with TG approaching.

 

I haven’t imagined it as him gathering nobles, bringing out his candidate and proceeding to put Rose crown on her head and say: “Here’s your Queen!” What I had in mind was him appointing steward of Andor or administrator as he did with Dobraine and Berelain in Cairhien. Such person would have good will of Dragon behind it, but could still gather support for new monarch: perhaps herself, perhaps its wife or daughter, or granddaughter (I remember Elayne mentioning possibility of Pelivar having ambitions in name of his granddaughters). Also Rand could provide traveling to his candidate allowing for gathering support and presenting itself to nation as Elayne did in COT. In that scenario Andorans would not be nearly as provoked as in upper case.

And Rand could have defeated anything Andor cold throw against him period. What he had in Caemlyn when we first see him in LOC: Aiels under Bael and Saldeans under Basher together with his channeling was enough to hold city against anything that high seats could realistically brought in field at a time. Full strength of Goshien, one more clan and Taim added and he would wipe the floor with anything Andorans had.

On a mater of military might of Andor I would like to say that, personally I think that any Borderland nation have stronger army. Elayne claims that united Andor could nearly match number of Borderlanders in south, but that there would be lot of untrained, too old or to young soldiers. On the other hand all four monarch brought with them approximately 50 000 soldiers and still left enough to take care of usual level of Troloc incursion. In case of emergency and large scale mobilization they could probably raise more quality soldiers than Andor. Narishma, I think, says something in line of every Borderlander being as good soldier as actual soldiers in south of pure necessity in tGS.

Concerning problems and conflict that such policy of Rand would caused I’d remind you that at the end there was civil war anyway, and that there were nobles ready to start it even if he left immediately after killing Rahvin, even if Elayne came shortly after as Master Ablar have mentioned.

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