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Wisdom as Damane


chongjasmine
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I was wondering about those wisdoms who were caught by the sul'dam. They can only channel randomly, due to their blocks.

So, how does the sul'dam deal with such damane who suffers from block?

Add on:

To clarify further, I am referring to wilders.

Those women who learn to channel on their own, but who suffer from block, like how Nynaeve used to.

How does Sul'dam trained such women?

Edited by Sgal83
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I'm not entirely positive of which Wisdoms you are referring to...perhaps the Kinswomen?

Nonetheless a good question - in TPoD, I seem to recall instances of the glow shining around a sul'dam as well as a damane (I will reread that part for quotes).

Perhaps the sul'dam simply uses the damane's true potential to assist with her own weaving?

Edited by From the Isle of Madmen
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I am referring to those women who were wisdoms in their villages, or some kinds of medicine women.

People who had learned to channel on their owns without knowing that they can channel.

People who belongs to the 1 out of 4 women who manage to channel.

Wilders.

I am referring to wilders. They can channel but their channeling is very random. They cannot channel at will.

How does the sul'dam train such women?

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in Seanchan they probably almost never have wilders, they test everyone. In the westlands just like withc aptured aes sedai they just have to work within the limits of what the damane can do, unless they try removing the blocks or getting around them.

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Moghedien talks about how easily she could have broken Nynaeve's block when she was in her custody. Aes Sedai try by shocking her, in a mild manner. She eventually breaks through by drowning. I guess Sul'Dam won't be very friendly and the Wilders learn to surrender quite quickly.

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Technically speaking, all damane are wilder's. With the exception of captured Aes Sedai. And I would think that blocks are quite common among Seanchan damane. NOBODY wants to think they can channel over there.

 

Exactly; plus the Windfinders, Shaido Wise Women and undoubtedly those of the Kinswomen in Seanchan controlled areas who were unable to escape.

We're not entirely sure of linking (albeit with the a'dam they are forced links) and how a block affects the full capabilities of said link - I believe that in either case the sul'dam/link-leader has full control of the capabilities of the damane's/wilder-participant's channeling potential. So, in this way, the Seanchan most probably have never had to deal with wilders' blocks OR there could be a rampant block on the whole Seanchan culture (but I disagree with this view merely because the topic has not been brought up with damane in Elayne or Rand's coiteree).

 

And as far as Moghedien being able to take down Nynaeve's block with ease, this has to do with the education of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. That is that they primarily used links. In TPoD, it explicitly states that no one could ever get burned out when they were in a link as the nature of the link itself serves as a buffer to holding too much of the One Power. Additionally, I believe in TFoH Asmodean states that men usually learned to channel via links, so I assume this means men are buffered as well - which must mean wilderhood was something easily overcame when provided a link (I assume because you have such an awareness of the other person, that you can help them defeat the block by calling it out directly). Interestingly enough, Callandor bypasses the buffering function of links - maybe Rand will burn out the One Power purposely?

Edited by From the Isle of Madmen
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maybe Rand will burn out the One Power

 

Don't know if you can burn out the one power as such, and this is off topic and i truley hope it doesn't happen, but perhapes the lack of buffer means Rand will use ALL the one power that can be sourced by people, maybe in fact the use of the one power caused the thinnning in the pattern that allowed the Darkone to be found and it needs to be put back into the system...

 

it makes one kind of sense, but I do hope not.

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Defining "wilder" with the Aes Sedai way is incredibly disingenuous.

 

A more reasonable definition of the term would be "people who have the spark and survive the first channeling experience without training."

 

Under that definition, it's unlikely any Windfinder is a wilder. And there are no Seanchan damane who are wilders.

 

Of course, the Aes Sedai definition is "anyone who can channel and isn't Aes Sedai." That's because Aes Sedai look down on everyone who isn't Aes Sedai. The notion that any people can learn to channel without Aes Sedai help is offensive to them. Thus, the word is a pejorative instead of a description when used by Aes Sedai. (Generally, of course. There are the occasional Aes Sedai like Cadsuane who uses the term in the same manner I would use it.)

Edited by Roxinos
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*large man with a whip walks into the damane cell, followed by a sul'dam*

Sul'dam: "You will be flogged mercilessly until you channel or you die, either way is fine with me. You are weak in the power and I have 30 other fresh damane to break today...."

Newly acquired damane looks around afraid and sad at your miserable fate.

Sul'dam: "Let the flogging commence!"

 

*And another channeller with a block is removed!*

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Interestingly enough, Callandor bypasses the buffering function of links - maybe Rand will burn out the One Power purposely?
Callandor does not bypass the buffering function of links, it lacks the buffer that angreal and sa'angreal usually possess. If Rand burns out on the OP purposely, it will not happen while he is in a link.
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Roxinos:

 

I did not include the Windfinders among those considered wilders, I meant they were among those who were collared amongst the Seanchan (alongside the captured Aes Sedai). I can see where that can be unlclear though. Also, it was my understanding that all damane were wilders; those born with the spark and must be taught can become sul'dam. This also explains the fact that the original Seanchan-only population of sul'dam far exceeds that of the damane (there are several scenes where the damane [once full-fledged] are shared amongst the sul'dam; one scene in particular is the kennels in Ebou Dar and the der'sul'dam clearly seems unorganized and unfit for her job post-Windfinder addition).

 

Mr Ares:

 

You are completely correct about the angrealic buffer on Callandor, but what I meant is like with the a'dam and sad-bracelets able to change the nature of links (that is, Callandor is similar to these). Another aspect of linking is the impossibility of bypassing the original capabilities of those in the link (see TPoD, when they use the Bowl). Even though the women had angreal with them in the link to change the weather, it was still impossible for the Windfinder leading the link to burn out the other women or herself due to drawing too deeply. It would appear that Callandor not only lacks its angrealic buffer, it also appears to lack a definite limit to how much can be drawn (or has it been stated that this is a psychological effect?).

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Roxinos:

 

I did not include the Windfinders among those considered wilders, I meant they were among those who were collared amongst the Seanchan (alongside the captured Aes Sedai). I can see where that can be unlclear though. Also, it was my understanding that all damane were wilders; those born with the spark and must be taught can become sul'dam. This also explains the fact that the original Seanchan-only population of sul'dam far exceeds that of the damane (there are several scenes where the damane [once full-fledged] are shared amongst the sul'dam; one scene in particular is the kennels in Ebou Dar and the der'sul'dam clearly seems unorganized and unfit for her job post-Windfinder addition).

 

Being born with the spark means that you will channel regardless of if you are taught or not. Egwene was born with the spark. Nynaeve was born with the spark. Rand was born with the spark.

 

Those who can learn to channel become sul'dam.

 

My attempt at clarification over the term "wilder" was more directed at the general implications in a statement like, "Technically speaking, all damane are wilder's," by Arath Faringal. That's just...well, it's just untrue. Unless you use the Aes Sedai definition of wilder. And under that definition, anyone who learned to channel on their own or was taught by a non-Aes Sedai is a wilder. And that's just a ridiculous definition that's intentionally exclusionary and pejorative.

 

Mr Ares:

 

You are completely correct about the angrealic buffer on Callandor, but what I meant is like with the a'dam and sad-bracelets able to change the nature of links (that is, Callandor is similar to these). Another aspect of linking is the impossibility of bypassing the original capabilities of those in the link (see TPoD, when they use the Bowl). Even though the women had angreal with them in the link to change the weather, it was still impossible for the Windfinder leading the link to burn out the other women or herself due to drawing too deeply. It would appear that Callandor not only lacks its angrealic buffer, it also appears to lack a definite limit to how much can be drawn (or has it been stated that this is a psychological effect?).

 

I'm really not understanding your point here. Callandor is irrelevant. Ordinary angreal and sa'angreal have a buffer to prevent themselves from drawing to much of the Power. Callandor does not share this buffer. The Sword That is Not a Sword does not bypass buffers. It merely lacks one of its own. A link provides this buffer. See "With the Choedan Kal" at the end of Winter's Heart. Narishma used Callandor but was perfectly safe.

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  • 2 weeks later...

We know from a bubble of evil early in the books, where Nynaeve is angry for not being able to heal a dead person, that she is brought into a link to put out fires and defend and what other things they did with the circles. After a while she calmed down, but the link was still active. She could still act as a conduit of power into a circle even though she as not angry enough to channel on her own.

 

We also know, from ToM, how the M'Hael apparently beat the block out of Androl. In ToM Ch46 (I think it is) he reflect that he used to have a block that he could only channel if he held or touched a piece of leather, but that the M'Hael beat that out of him. Not sure it is just a figure of speach, or if he indeed was physically or magically beaten. But considering the state of things at the BT, I think it was not just a figure of speech..

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I'd say they just torture them past it. One of the people who try to help Nynaeve break her block said that when she was a novice Galina just beat her mercilessly until she broke through it out of desperation, if that worked without an A'Dam, it seems like it would be even easier with one.

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My answer is twofold. First, the term 'wilder' is an AS one. There's no other population which knows or uses it. Therefore, we can make our own minds on what it should mean, but in the books it means what AS think it does - women channeling without WT training.

 

More to the point, the Seanchan have acquired land in Randland that certainly had some women who taught themselves how to channel, whether or not they knew what they were doing. Could the sul'dam break their blocks (those who had them, which are bound to be quite a few) with a'dam-simulated beatings? Certainly. Would they have the experience required to know that it works? Doubtful -- they probably don't have to deal with that sort of thing very often in Seanchan, seeing as how women at the age of Sparking are regularly tested, and those who pass trained by sul'dam. But won't that be their knee-jerk reaction, to just beat it out of women? In my estimate, it most certainly would be.

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My answer is twofold. First, the term 'wilder' is an AS one. There's no other population which knows or uses it. Therefore, we can make our own minds on what it should mean, but in the books it means what AS think it does - women channeling without WT training.

 

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Initially it's only used to refer to channelers without any training at all. Then the Wise Ones/Damane/Windfinders etc. turn up and the Aes Sedai apply it to them in a derogatory manner, because, Aes Sedai being the way they are, they refuse to believe that any group outside the tower could offer training equal to what Aes Sedai receive (even though that's been proven false).

 

To me, it always felt like a reaction to them having their predominance disrupted. Aes Sedai thought they were the biggest bullies in the playground for so long that when someone came along who could match them, they refused to acknowledge it.

 

A bit of a side note, but I'd love to find out more about the techniques used by the other groups in training. The books only ever provide the details about Aes Sedai training (and to a lesser extent Saidin training with Rand), it would be interesting to see how other cultures differ in the way they relate to and understand the One Power. Especially the Damane, given the stark differences in lifestyle, attitudes and circumstance.

Edited by Azrayne
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I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Initially it's only used to refer to channelers without any training at all. Then the Wise Ones/Damane/Windfinders etc. turn up and the Aes Sedai apply it to them in a derogatory manner

What I think you're missing is that it always was meant as sort of an insult. Even AS who were wilders have their ranking negatively affected. What are you relying on when you say they 'expanded the meaning of it to include WO/WF'? What's to say it now means any more than it used to?

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I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Initially it's only used to refer to channelers without any training at all. Then the Wise Ones/Damane/Windfinders etc. turn up and the Aes Sedai apply it to them in a derogatory manner

What I think you're missing is that it always was meant as sort of an insult. Even AS who were wilders have their ranking negatively affected. What are you relying on when you say they 'expanded the meaning of it to include WO/WF'? What's to say it now means any more than it used to?

 

Well prior to the events in the books, they had no idea that any other channeling organizations existed. A term can't cover something that doesn't exist. When the WO's popped up they could have said 'hey, these chicks have been around as long as we have and have more channelers than we do, so it's probably a bit silly to put them in the same catagory as some village healer who occasionally makes shit happen with the One Power when she gets angry without even knowing it.' But they didn't. So the term changed automatically from encompassing those without any training (by definition, because there was no one else to train them) to anyone who wasn't trained specifically at the White Tower, regardless of what they had actually been taught.

 

Anyone it's a silly argument, just semantics really.

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I was wondering about those wisdoms who were caught by the sul'dam. They can only channel randomly, due to their blocks.

So, how does the sul'dam deal with such damane who suffers from block?

Add on:

To clarify further, I am referring to wilders.

Those women who learn to channel on their own, but who suffer from block, like how Nynaeve used to.

How does Sul'dam trained such women?

 

Their testing method is flawed. Back home in Seanchan, all the da'mane are women who'd be considered Wilders, and all the sul'dam are women who have the potential to channel but will never do so without proper training. It's the big fat juicy "dirty little secret" of the Seanchan, and way back in whichever book it was where Mat first recovered and tooted the Horn, the girls escaped from the Seanchan by realising this and clapping a'dam bracelets on their handlers.

 

As for how they're trained, it's the same all round. Doesn't matter if you're a Seanchan girl who's picked up by the test, a Wilder in Randland who's picked up by the test, or an Aes Sedai who's captured. You're never allowed to channel on your own, and you're constantly forced to channel (by sul'dams who don't consciously realise that they know how to weave flows) until you're good enough to be used in the field.

 

*large man with a whip walks into the damane cell, followed by a sul'dam*

Sul'dam: "You will be flogged mercilessly until you channel or you die, either way is fine with me. You are weak in the power and I have 30 other fresh damane to break today...."

Newly acquired damane looks around afraid and sad at your miserable fate.

Sul'dam: "Let the flogging commence!"

 

*And another channeller with a block is removed!*

 

Why bother with a man with a whip? A sul'dam can inflict any pain she imagines on a da'mane, and make it more intense than any physical torture without any physical injury.

Edited by Rallan
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I think that wilders encompass those who were bound to channel with/without WT training.

I agree with this point, however, when it comes to pre-Return damane, I feel that all of them were wilders.

The reasoning for this is based on things that seem rather unrelated - the Black Tower and their recruitment strategy in addition to Else Grinwell (the girl from the farm).

1) If we look in LoC when Taim is testing for whether a person can channel or not, there is a resonance.

2) Else, who happens to be of age, is turned away for her inability yet she was still tested for said resonance.

These men at the BT would have otherwise not been able to channel (whether the madness/taint would have affected them I would have to say nay. We have not seen a slow-burning Breaking over the last 3,000 years...)- again, look at the numbers of stilled men/False Dragons over time.

This resonance is something the AS only tested for randomly in girls of a certain age (those too old apparently were not even tested with this supposed resonance. Remember Alanna and Verin in the Two Rivers with their suspicions.)...Egwene fulfills this requirement as she had yet to channel (though Moiraine assumes she would have been a wilder besides) whereas Nynaeve did not as she had channeled beforehand.

However, we do see Maighdin/Morgase perceived as a wilder despite her training in the WT; this was used in an offensive manner, but also the person using it lacked the knowledge required to reveal the difference (her actual Tower training). With WFs and WOs, this offensive manner is maintained when viewed by the AS; they must have some method of detecting the channeling resonance in women within their respectively private cultures that the AS are unaware of...as are we. That being said, it would be unfathomable for no women at all to not be able to channel in either culture. It is in this way that the WFs are genious; that being that they send their weakest Aes Sedai becomable (is that a word?) level women to the Tower.

With the Kin, we see (I assume Laras is one of the Kin or related to them peripherally) Aes Sedai failures (not wilders) but also some who have never been to the Tower whatsoever (assumedly, all wilders; those with the resonance do not channel without the ability being discovered within).

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Aren't you confusing Sparkers with wilders? Moiraine was a sparker, as were Siuan, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene and Aviendha. Of the lot, only Nynaeve and Aviendha are wilders (though I think some Accepted once wrongly referred to Egwene as such).

 

The test Taim performs is irrelevant to women - it's how men discover channelers. I think we've seen the female way with Moiraine and Egwene, but we should probably mention that women can sense each other without performing any test at all, at least they can sparkers that are close to their change.

Also, the reason Else was sent from the Tower was her low potential, but she could channel, and was taught enough not to endanger herself or others.

 

Anyway, this really is a tad pointless; I just don't see why we have to construct all these elaborate explanations, when AS have repeatedly referred to every female channeler not trained in the Tower as a wilder.

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I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Initially it's only used to refer to channelers without any training at all. Then the Wise Ones/Damane/Windfinders etc. turn up and the Aes Sedai apply it to them in a derogatory manner

What I think you're missing is that it always was meant as sort of an insult. Even AS who were wilders have their ranking negatively affected. What are you relying on when you say they 'expanded the meaning of it to include WO/WF'? What's to say it now means any more than it used to?

 

Well prior to the events in the books, they had no idea that any other channeling organizations existed. A term can't cover something that doesn't exist.

It can. For example, such a term could cover something that used to exist and doesn't any more. Such as rival channeling organisations that the AS know about. See the Daughters of Silence.
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I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Initially it's only used to refer to channelers without any training at all. Then the Wise Ones/Damane/Windfinders etc. turn up and the Aes Sedai apply it to them in a derogatory manner

What I think you're missing is that it always was meant as sort of an insult. Even AS who were wilders have their ranking negatively affected. What are you relying on when you say they 'expanded the meaning of it to include WO/WF'? What's to say it now means any more than it used to?

 

Well prior to the events in the books, they had no idea that any other channeling organizations existed. A term can't cover something that doesn't exist.

It can. For example, such a term could cover something that used to exist and doesn't any more. Such as rival channeling organisations that the AS know about. See the Daughters of Silence.

 

Calling them an organization is pretty generous. Wasn't it just 2 or 3 failed Accepted and a half dozen randoms they'd picked up? Even then it was an offshoot of the tower.

 

Point being, as far as the AS were concerned, prior to the events of FOH the WT was was the only bastion of OPtraining in all of the land. Even the Kin were linked to the tower fairly strongly, though in secret. Not to mention that they get as shitty about Wilders as AS do, if not more, being failed AS. I'm not sure wth they thought the Aiel who could channel were doing, but if AS are good at anything, it's ignoring things they don't want to think about.

 

 

2) Else, who happens to be of age, is turned away for her inability yet she was still tested for said resonance.

 

I don't think she was turned away for inability, she was initially taken in then asked to leave after spending a while at the tower because she wasn't suitable AS material (spending all her day flirting with the warder trainee's, etc. Though with the way the AS act around Galad, it seems a bit rich coming from them).

Edited by Azrayne
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