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dileeph

Taim the good guy?

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I have seen two kinds of topics about Taim in the forums

1. Is he a Forsaken or not (Moridin vs Demandred)

2. Is Logain gonna kick Taim's ass.

 

I have just completed my second reading of the entire series (skipping all chapters dealing with Kin, SeaFolk, Elayne). Right now I think that this whole Taim business is a red herring. Of course he is jealous about Rand being the real Dragon Reborn and him turning out to be a false dragon. (C'mon how will you feel if at the end of series it came out that Rand was a false dragon?)

He has done exactly what Rand asked him to do ... he even saved Rand in Dumai's Wells.

 

On the other hand the only negative things we have hear about Taim come from Logain's mouth. Now that is one guy we should watch out for. He is mysteriously out of the picture for quite a while throughout the series without any explanation as to where he is. I can't even remember how he ended up in the BT? Do you?

The only positive thing we know about Logain comes from Min's vision - blue and gold halo around the guy - which she assumes means greatness for him. The other person who had a blue and gold halo ended up with her head chopped off for being Black Ajah.

 

And .. oh by the way Talmanes is Demandred :biggrin: .. he's got the biggest and most trained army .. hasn't he?

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Kisman, one of the rogue Asha'man who tried to kill Rand, quite clearly states in a POV that Taim was one the three to order that hit on Rand. Then of course there's more damning evidence in ToM, in that Taim has his hands on one of Moridin's two Dreamspikes. The Dreamspike also explains why Taim ordered a wall built around the Black Tower, which would be useless in a world post traveling, which makes it quite clear he's been planning for this for quite some time. This is without mentioning that all the Asha'man who are recruited into Taim's "special classes" are coming out with symptoms quite similar to what we're told being turned to the Shadow with the 13x13 trick looks like.

 

And this, this is probably not even half the evidence that points towards Taim being aligned with the Shadow.

 

The only positive thing we know about Logain comes from Min's vision - blue and gold halo around the guy - which she assumes means greatness for him. The other person who had a blue and gold halo ended up with her head chopped off for being Black Ajah.

 

Min more than assumes she saw greatness in Logain's future. Not all of her viewings are as clear as Logain's, but when she knows, she knows.

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Min more than assumes she saw greatness in Logain's future. Not all of her viewings are as clear as Logain's, but when she knows, she knows.

 

 

Using Mr. Ollivander words:

After all, He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named did great things. Terrible! Yes. But great

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Fair enough, nothing from Min's viewing excludes the possibility of Logain seizing his glory with the Shadow. The point is though, despite the similar colors, the viewing of Sheriam and Logain were of two different things, which we can be sure of from Min's own certainty.

Edited by GYLD

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fair points ...

 

however ...

 

1. Of all ashamans (except for the one-trick-pony in ToM) we don't see POVs from any Ashaman except Kisman. So there should be some other relevance to it. And I believe he says "M'Hael" not "Taim" ... :smile: ok ok .. i am splitting hairs ... but still ....

2. 13X13 is something that the forums has thrown up. Somewhere around Siuan's stilling we get to hear about it (if I remember correctly). This is to covert someone from Light into Darkness - I don't think anything about eyes having dead look is mentioned. I'd say what we see are the effects of Compulsion rather that 13x13.

3. Which leads to ... are Taim and all his cronies under Compulsion?

4. Dreamspike - Moridin mentions to Graendal that the other one has been put to good use - no where is it mentioned in BT. We readers are assuming that the other one is in BT due to difficulty in opening gateways. Yes it could be there - but is Taim aware of it?

5. Min's vision - well ... ummm ... well that is one of the biggest questions, yes? :tongue:

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Doesn't Pevara see Taim being extremely cruel to the other Ashaman - I mean, he broke someone's skull for being rude, and denied them Healing! Logain, on the other hand, goes around kissing Aes Sedai to bond them - but he's never cruel like that. That's evidence enough for me.

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Doesn't Pevara see Taim being extremely cruel to the other Ashaman - I mean, he broke someone's skull for being rude, and denied them Healing! Logain, on the other hand, goes around kissing Aes Sedai to bond them - but he's never cruel like that. That's evidence enough for me.

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I'd still say deliberate build up of "red-herring"ness.

And don't forget, Dark Rand did some pretty cruel things too.

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Kisman, one of the rogue Asha'man who tried to kill Rand, quite clearly states in a POV that Taim was one the three to order that hit on Rand. Then of course there's more damning evidence in ToM, in that Taim has his hands on one of Moridin's two Dreamspikes. The Dreamspike also explains why Taim ordered a wall built around the Black Tower, which would be useless in a world post traveling, which makes it quite clear he's been planning for this for quite some time. This is without mentioning that all the Asha'man who are recruited into Taim's "special classes" are coming out with symptoms quite similar to what we're told being turned to the Shadow with the 13x13 trick looks like.

 

And this, this is probably not even half the evidence that points towards Taim being aligned with the Shadow.

 

 

With Mask of Mirrors or Mirror of Mists or whatever the author is calling it this week, it can look like a duck, quack like a duck, waddle like a duck and not even be any type of fowl.

 

Kisman was given a very similar order three different times by what he believed to be three different people. Belief, no matter how fervent, does not constitute fact. So, the question is, were they really three different people? Or, were they one person, using higher and higher ranking disguises to get something that the Nae'blis had forbidden done anyway?

 

Given how the whole attempt on Rand's life played out, my money is on Ishar Morad Chuain aka Aginor aka Corlan Dashiva aka the rather ordinary-looking man who went poof along with the whole hilltop he was on when Elza jumped froggy while in control of Callandor.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

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Kisman, one of the rogue Asha'man who tried to kill Rand, quite clearly states in a POV that Taim was one the three to order that hit on Rand. Then of course there's more damning evidence in ToM, in that Taim has his hands on one of Moridin's two Dreamspikes. The Dreamspike also explains why Taim ordered a wall built around the Black Tower, which would be useless in a world post traveling, which makes it quite clear he's been planning for this for quite some time. This is without mentioning that all the Asha'man who are recruited into Taim's "special classes" are coming out with symptoms quite similar to what we're told being turned to the Shadow with the 13x13 trick looks like.

 

And this, this is probably not even half the evidence that points towards Taim being aligned with the Shadow.

 

 

With Mask of Mirrors or Mirror of Mists or whatever the author is calling it this week, it can look like a duck, quack like a duck, waddle like a duck and not even be any type of fowl.

 

Kisman was given a very similar order three different times by what he believed to be three different people. Belief, no matter how fervent, does not constitute fact. So, the question is, were they really three different people? Or, were they one person, using higher and higher ranking disguises to get something that the Nae'blis had forbidden done anyway?

 

That is an interesting idea I had not considered. The orders do seem a little suspect, especially Demandred's, which goes against his defining characteristic. However, if this was just an elaborate ruse, I don't very much see the point in masquerading as Moridin. We know Moridin has the greatest authority among the Forsaken, but Kisman didn't even know a Moridin existed before he got his orders. If the plan is to pull rank without incriminating oneself, there's no need to go beyond Demandred. Who's a Third Ager more likely to believe has the greater authority, some guy he has never heard of, or a three thousand year old legend?

Edited by GYLD

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2. 13X13 is something that the forums has thrown up. Somewhere around Siuan's stilling we get to hear about it (if I remember correctly). This is to covert someone from Light into Darkness - I don't think anything about eyes having dead look is mentioned. I'd say what we see are the effects of Compulsion rather that 13x13.

3. Which leads to ... are Taim and all his cronies under Compulsion?

 

I think the people in ToM are under 13x13. We've seen people under Compulsion, and none of them had the weird dead eye effect of the people in the Black Tower. With the exception, maybe, of people who were so gone under Graendal that they were basically brain dead. If Compulsion was so easily recognized, it wouldn't be very effective. Rand also wouldn't have needed Nynaeve to Delve for it in Ramshalan.

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most telling thing about taim was the old saying he uttered at the end of one of the books...

 

"Let the Lord of Chaos rule."

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In book 13, within the black tower, travelling was found inoperational with the appearance of ashaman Mezor from Rand.

 

One of the trainees there is convinced that Mezor was an imposter, as his characteristics were vastly different.

 

It points to a dreamspike being used, and the handler of dreamspike was Slayer from the dreamworld, and in the real world it would be Luc.

 

Taim is only an opportunist. He knows the prophecies about Rand, that he will die in the last battle. Thus he is only preparing his own group of ashamen to rule the world through the use of the Power, once Rand is gone.

 

He may not know that travelling is not possible in black tower, as he had position guards at proximity to each other as a warning to the aes sedai not to leave the tower. He may not even had heard of a 'dreamspike' tool.

 

The purpose of the dreamspike by Luc in black tower is to prevent communication between Rand and Taim. With Mezor sent to black tower, that fake Mezor, instructed by Moridin, had not been relaying the real messages to Taim, but instead that everything was fine.

 

As the Last Battle is soon to be fought, Rand would have told the black tower to send its troops to Merrilor, but Mezor is not telling Taim, in the hope to prevent Taim from sending troops, or at least deny the inevitable once Taim realizes he would need to shift troops further out of range of dreamspike for travelling, should Taim finds out or accidently needs to travel.

 

Taim would have sent ashamen to the last battle if an order was sent. He is still bounded by his oath to Rand in the presence of many witnesses, and would hurt his credibility to rule later if he breaks it in the open now by disregarding Rand' s order while Rand is alive.

 

Furthermore, his private ashamen need not help to fight, or just made to look like fighting in the Last Battle. But once Rand dies and the Dark One is entombed again, Taim will take the opportunity to destroy those whom will oppose him then and there at the Last Battle. If the Dark One wins, all is lost anyway. Taim is only taking his chances.

 

Therefore Taim is not Demandred, nor had Taim been turned by the Forsaken. Taim only wants chaos to reign, so that he can step in to rule, as he had done once before under the guise of a false dragon reborn. He knew his own capabilities, after surviving years being a channeler while others would die within a few years when saidin was tainted.

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He has the same sigil as Sammael and Bel'al right in front of his palace. That alone looks bad. Not to mention he raised Mezar to Ashaman rank right after Mezar was turned, even though he had refused to do so before. I rather doubt this was a coincidence.

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The black tower actively recruits using traveling parties. Can't imagine train being unaware that traveling speed working. More likely we'll find out he placed an Oye that ask trips are on hold, unless he already did and i'm forgetting

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How much evidence do you Taim-ites need that he's dark? He's all but straight up said "Hey I'm a Darkfriend guys." I'm not exactly sure when but I'm pretty sure he's referred to the DO as the Great Lord. There can be some coincidences but this many all pointing to Taim being black with nothing but supposition saying he's not... That's too much. At some point you just have to accept what RJ and BS say.

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Taim is on the darkside for certain.

That doesn't mean that Logain isn't on the Dark Side as well though he's shown no signs of it.

It also doesn't mean that Taim won't end up doing some good even if by accident.

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Taim is a third age Forsaken, i believe the only one.

Logain is on the side of the light.

 

whether we will end up seeing a showdown between them is another matter. I am very concerned that a lot of things are not going to be covered in this "last book" which will irk me no end.

 

we need to let these people know we demand some outrigger books after this one is done.

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Personally, I believe Taim IS Moridin (not sweating, his language, his apparent first reaction to the Aiel, the sigils, showing signs of being linked with Rand).

 

But I also certainly accept the 3rd age Forsaken or trusted minion explanation as well. A lot of the clues can be explained by either: use of Dreamspikes, using "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" at the end of LoC.

 

Either way, the OP just blantantly ignores a lot of that evidence with his post. There is no way Taim is a good guy.

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I am not blatantly ignoring any evidence. What I am proposing, albeit somewhat on the loony side, is the possibility that we are being carefully lead up the wrong path by a really clever author. Apart from the above "Aes Sedai" capabilities that are currently slightly unexplained, we have no proof that he is on the dark side, let alone a Foresaken. He is yet to be shown doing a dark deed (explicitly by the author ... not from a third party POV) whereas this has not been the case with any other dark side character.

Edited by Black Hammer

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He is yet to be shown doing a dark deed (explicitly by the author ... not from a third party POV) whereas this has not been the case with any other dark side character.

 

Let the Lord of Chaos Rule followed by prototypical evil genius muahaha...sure he just picked that saying up on one of his recruiting trips. Totally innocuous...

 

Personally, I believe Taim IS Moridin (not sweating, his language, his apparent first reaction to the Aiel, the sigils, showing signs of being linked with Rand).

 

Moridin would not have allowed himself to be harried across half a continent by "so called" AS, to arrive in Andor "rode hard and put away wet". That is just one of many reasons why it doesn't work...

Edited by Suttree

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I wrote a thread of this kind a way back, I don't think Taim is good now, but you are missing heaps of good points in the theories favour, I will help out, for the sake of debate.

 

Look at Taim in the earlier books he is in. In LoC - CoS he is not really that evil. In fact, when Rand is having one of his psychotic episodes, he tells him that he needs to hold on. And he is quite sympathetic in CoS when Rand has given Morr the cup of poison, saying something along the lines of it is the best thing to do. (Although, I don't think this is quite the case)

 

As for evidence against Taim, I will list it.

 

1. False Dragon = Nobody in their right mind would want to declare themselves DR. He makes a good explaination, and Logain, who is likely good, also did this. Point being, there is something wrong with someone who declares themselves DR (unless they have clearly fulfilled the prophecies, like Rand taking Callandor) This point is easily explained, no need to argue the point, I was merely saying it is an indication of being power-hungry.

 

 

2. Taim showing no outward signs of madness after, what, at least 5 years of channeling? Again, he could be affected internally, yet able to hide it well, Point here, it is suspicious.

 

3. His AoL phrases, "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" which has only been said by the DO and Demandred, and shared only with darkfriends. This is the most damning of all. The "so-called Aiel" comment. Again, used by Moridin, only one of the Forsaken or Aiel chiefs would know what this means, unless Taim has gone to Ruihdean himself. Admittedly, he could have been told, after Rand announced it to the Aiel and stuff, but why would he adapt such a comment when for all of his life, the Aiel have been as they were. It is a phrase used ironically by those who know what the Aiel used to be, and think this is amusing. Or, Darkfriends who have been let in on a secret and enjoy knowing this.

 

4. His contempt for Aes Sedai is suspect. Sure, a lot of male channelers hate or distrust the AS with good reason, but Taim treats them with contempt, this suggests he is either a Forsaken, or has been given Forsaken-like knowledge (an apprentice to Moridin or such). Nobody treats the AS with contempt unless they the knew how crap they were compared to AoL people or Forsaken.

 

5. His violent and cold hearted attitude. Similar to his hatred of AS, In fact, he suggests to Rand they should kidnap and possibly kill AS. As mentioned, he knocks the crap out of Mishraile (who has strong evidence suggesting he is a DF) when he is about to reveal something. Then refusing him healing.

 

(On a side note with Mishraile, he does a similar thing with Logain, he pretty much reveals he is a DF, and says that he will enjoy some kind of power. Then Logain says he has gone too far, much like he did with Taim.)

 

6. Taim's dark aura. Admittedly, it is not conclusive, but a possible connection to Moridin.

 

7. The order to kill Rand. This is already discussed with regards to possibilities of him not being the one. However, the fact still stands that we have a PoV that states Taim, the M'hael has ordered Rand's death. If it turns out to be true or not, we will see, but it adds to the list of suspicious actions.

 

8. Trapping everyone in the Black Tower. Taim rules with an iron fist. He knocks people out who annoy him, he has no problem asserting his authority. He would know the minute it happened that Travelling was cut off, since travelling is used alot with the recruiting parties, and we see in KoD how the Asha'man, instead of walking a relatively short distance from the entrance to Taim's palace, they travel there instead. Taim would know of this problem, and if he was "good" he would adress the problem and assert his power. This may not mean he would know how to fix it, if he doesn't know about the DS, but he would certainly not be locking down the BT like he is, or at least be trying to figure out what is going down.

 

9. Taim's special classes, and the fact that those who attend become suspiciously strong and fanatically loyal to Taim. Mezar was an asha'man loyal to Logain, nice guy by all acounts and has gone off with Logain trying to find evidence against Taim. Suddenly, said Mezar turns up as a loyal Taim croney, Pageboy (sorry, I always forget his name) doesn't say that he thinks this is an Impostor. He has no doubt that it is Mezar's body. An impostor cannot be so exact, and a MoM disguise would be noticed in a town full of male channelers. He believes that he has been altered, and we have strong evidence and foreshadowing from Book 3 of 13x13 turnings. Brandon has called it a Checkov's Gun- on the mantle in the first scene, used in the 3rd. (meaning that is will be seen by the end) I mean, you can say, technically, it is not proof. BUt thats like saying Cyndane isn't Lanfear (before the confirmation in the epilogue of ToM) it is so obvious you don't need it to be said plainly.

 

So, many of these on their own can be explained away, however, all of them together is more than simply "leading us astray". It is more like RJ stating outright that he is a DF and then it turns out he is not.

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While he is almost certainly evil, it would be quite the twist to find out we've all been rooting for the wrong side. But far too much of one to be doable at this point, unfortunately.

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Doesn't Pevara see Taim being extremely cruel to the other Ashaman - I mean, he broke someone's skull for being rude, and denied them Healing! Logain, on the other hand, goes around kissing Aes Sedai to bond them - but he's never cruel like that. That's evidence enough for me.

Being a huge jerk doesn't mean you are one of the Great Lords servants, neither is "being nice" proof that you are a good guy.

 

As for the attempted murder on Rand, Taim could have ordered that not because he was working for the Great Lord but poerhaps because he believed Rand to be dangerous? After all we know that many Aes Sedai that aren't Black Ajah think that Rand is to dangerous to live.

 

Anwyay I like this idea and would be extremly happy if it proves true. With so little supporting this theory and so much against it -- Taim being a good guy would be one of those shocking revealtions you WANT to see in the final book. I mean think about it, since he first appeared it has basically been shoved into our faces that Taim is moist likely working for the Great Lord. In the case of everyone else we have been shown that this is really the case (see Aginor's reincarnation) But Taim? I even if he is Mordred or just some high ranked darkfriend he could still have been shown giving Moghedien orders. No need to show us eithers POV if hiding Taim's identity was important.

 

But they haven't shown any such scene.

Edited by Dollhouse

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