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Smilingjack

When the many become one

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There is one thing I have often wondered. I am not sure if it has any relevance, but I am unable to discard it.

My question regards a prophecy from the Essanik Cycle, a Seanchan phrophecy.

 

At the end of time,

when the many become one,

the last storm shall gather its angry winds

to destroy a land already dying.

And at its center, the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought.

-from The Prophecies of the Dragon, Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's Official Translation, Imperial Record House of Seandar, Fourth Circle of Elevation.

 

The prophecy has been fulfilled, completey. But one thing bothers me massively about this.

 

"There he shall see again, and weep for what has been wrought".

 

When Rand stood atop Dragonmount, this is what happened:

 

The clouds above had finally broken, if only just above him. The gloom dispersed, allowing him to see the sun hanging just above.

Rand looked up at it. Then he smiled. Finally, he let out a deep-throated laugh, true and pure.

 

I wonder if its a stupid question without consequence or significance., or a mistake (though I truly doubt it).

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on wether or not it could mean anything?

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I seem to remember him crying after, when he returned to Tam. Anyway, Im guessing the crying is just a mtaphor for regretting what he had become and done.

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any ideas on the many become one part? what could it be referring to?

Edited by GB

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The laughing and crying do seem to be incompatible, but as Misheru said, as some time later he might cry (and has cried) for what has been wrought.

 

I dunno what 'the many become one' signifies. If the chronology of the 'prophecy' is right, the many (have) already become one before VoG. This means is could not refer to the WoT nations nor Rand's many lives. Maybe it is all the 'threads' becoming one by being connected to the Dragon. So a ta'veren effect so strong that all threads are like one? Sounds a bit weak I guess.

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I would just say that if they applied this to LTT, it would be a perfect match, maybe except for the Many becoming One as I am not all that sure whatever really happened then, apart from what we see at the prologue of tEotW

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As I recall it, Rand remembers more past lives now than just LTT. He remembers many, or maybe all of them.

 

As I understood it he saw all the lives on DM but the only memories that stayed with him long term where of his last life with LTT once he integrated them.

Edited by Suttree

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As I recall it, Rand remembers more past lives now than just LTT. He remembers many, or maybe all of them.

 

Keep in mind -

 

This is from the Essanik Cycle. The Seanchan version of the Kareathon Cycle that was "corrupted" by Ishamael. Nothing says what was corrupted nor in how many places the Kareathon Cycle was corrupted to create the Essanik cycle. So, the fact that it claims "the blind man" shall "weep for what has been wrought" doesn't really mean anything, since it comes from a very untrustworthy source.

 

The part that would fit best for "When the many become one" is when Rand remembers all of the past incarnations of the Dragon.

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I think this entire prophecy sounds weird.

At the end of time.... What do you mean? The wheel is time and the wheel doesn't stop.

when the many become one.... This could be the field of merrilor and all forces going to the blight, one mind, one purpose.

the last storm shall gather its angry winds..... Lást storm? I thought TG happened over and over again?

to destroy a land already dying..... Oke, this one sounds obvious to me

The next part is obviously Ishamael getting his epiphany, his return to the light:

And at its center, the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought.

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This is from the Essanik Cycle. The Seanchan version of the Kar[a]eathon Cycle that was "corrupted" by Ishamael. Nothing says what was corrupted nor in how many places the Kar[a]eathon Cycle was corrupted to create the Essanik cycle.

 

I apologize if the answer is obvious, but where did you locate information that the Essanik Cycle was prophecy that was 'corrupted' by Ishamael? Additionally, the Essanik Cycle and Karaethon Cycle share topical matter that dates prior and during the Breaking, but as for prophecies seen post-Breaking there is no telling 1)whether either have been directly tampered with and 2)one is a more trustworthy source than the either.

 

Basically,

Karaethon Cycle I, containing (a)(a = pre-Breaking as well as during the Breaking elements)

-> (Westland) Karaethon Cycle II, containing (a)+(b) (b = edited periodically for new prophetic elements to be annexed, *)

-> (Seanchan) Essanik Cycle, containing (a)+© (c = edited periodically for new prophectic elements to be annexed, **)

 

* As far as tampering goes, I assume interpretations on the translations (which are near set in stone) appear post-original text but this as far as what kind of tampering can be done to them.

** Here, although I agree the tampering may be happening (it also may NOT be, just a differing interpretation to that of the Westlands)(in the case that it is, I suspect alterations were made for purely propaganda purposes), jumping to the conclusion that Ishamael being the culprit with the tampering. (E-WoT has nothing suggesting Ishamael being the one...)

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This is from the Essanik Cycle. The Seanchan version of the Kar[a]eathon Cycle that was "corrupted" by Ishamael. Nothing says what was corrupted nor in how many places the Kar[a]eathon Cycle was corrupted to create the Essanik cycle.

 

I apologize if the answer is obvious, but where did you locate information that the Essanik Cycle was prophecy that was 'corrupted' by Ishamael? Additionally, the Essanik Cycle and Karaethon Cycle share topical matter that dates prior and during the Breaking, but as for prophecies seen post-Breaking there is no telling 1)whether either have been directly tampered with and 2)one is a more trustworthy source than the either.

 

Basically,

Karaethon Cycle I, containing (a)(a = pre-Breaking as well as during the Breaking elements)

-> (Westland) Karaethon Cycle II, containing (a)+(b) (b = edited periodically for new prophetic elements to be annexed, *)

-> (Seanchan) Essanik Cycle, containing (a)+© (c = edited periodically for new prophectic elements to be annexed, **)

 

* As far as tampering goes, I assume interpretations on the translations (which are near set in stone) appear post-original text but this as far as what kind of tampering can be done to them.

** Here, although I agree the tampering may be happening (it also may NOT be, just a differing interpretation to that of the Westlands)(in the case that it is, I suspect alterations were made for purely propaganda purposes), jumping to the conclusion that Ishamael being the culprit with the tampering. (E-WoT has nothing suggesting Ishamael being the one...)

 

Ishy sent the corrupted version over with Luthair and the invasion fleet. We are told of the differences when Miraj says...

 

tPoD

The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too, not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne!

 

The biggest difference is their version includes Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne. The tip off is in Ishy's little speech about sending the fleet and "sealing two dooms".

 

tEotW

I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come.

Edited by Suttree

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Thanks for the clarification Suttree - however, although I see where it can be deduced that Ishamael corrupted the version sent to Seanchan, it still does not state so in plain text; Miraj's POV could very well be showing that both prophecies could appear to have been tampered with when the other prophecy is compared against the other (it just seems more propaganda-oriented in his case - or that is how I interpreted it). Of course Luthair Paendrag and his descendents would believe their version to be more pure than the text on the mainland [Edit:]or the different Seanchan translation; not only are they patriotic to a fault, they are additionally expansionist imperials (look at real-world colonialism for a direct comparison) whose patriotism extends to everything Westlandish (including the Karaethon Cycle II).

 

In the bolded part of the quote that you gave us it says that the [Edit:]pre-LuthairSeanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle was corrupted (but Miraj's viewpoint is the same those who were with Luthair, not the natives of the Seanchan continent) so my above comment that the annexed interpretations/translations were shared with pre/during-Breaking elements (the (a) element) between the two modern Cycles is obviously incorrect. However(I am actually a translator - not saying that my experience is by any means superior, but that there is still leg-room to doubt Ishamael's hand. In fact, it did not have to be any intervention of the Dark for the Light to screw themselves over with their attempts on interpreting the Prophecies. I can see further tampering to completely throw off the Light, but scholars would definitely NOTICE this. But, nonetheless...), as there is 'tampering'/'corruption' on both sides it does not show which one is more correct than the either; maybe Rand will simply have to kneel to the Crystal Throne, but not be enthralled by Tuon to serve her. Incidentally and unfortunately, agent-object mistranslations abound so something like Rand kneeling or being the recipient of said kneeling could be something rather innocent rather than sinister. Besides, what if Ishamael incidentally screws himself over by altering the interpretation into something that could potentially help the Light?

 

For clarification purposes, what is your interpretation on 'the doom yet to come', I had assumed that was the Hailene...

 

To return to the topic at hand, "when the many become one," seems to allude to Rand and his past lives all merging. I know and understand how some say that the time sequence within this Prophecy seems to counter the possibility of this interpretation, but the fact that this insertion of "when the many become one" modifies and explains the snippet prior ("At the end of time,") it does not necessarily need to follow time-wise.

 

...Just my two or three cents...

Edited by From the Isle of Madmen

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As I recall it, Rand remembers more past lives now than just LTT. He remembers many, or maybe all of them.

 

Keep in mind -

 

This is from the Essanik Cycle. The Seanchan version of the Kareathon Cycle that was "corrupted" by Ishamael. Nothing says what was corrupted nor in how many places the Kareathon Cycle was corrupted to create the Essanik cycle. So, the fact that it claims "the blind man" shall "weep for what has been wrought" doesn't really mean anything, since it comes from a very untrustworthy source.

 

The part that would fit best for "When the many become one" is when Rand remembers all of the past incarnations of the Dragon.

The Essanik Cycle and the Karaethon Cycle are different things. According to Sanderson, it was made by damane on the Seanchan continent.

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According to Sanderson, it was made by damane on the Seanchan continent.

 

 

Uff.. I hope that isnt true, since it would make things a lot more confusing. But then again, there are things in the Aiel prophecy, that is not included in the Prophesies of the Dragon. It may be the same with the Essanik Cycle.

 

As for the original question. I know that Rand cried later on, with Tam, but it still feels wrong in a way. Meh, i gues it is acceptable.

As for "the many become one", here is a quote of what it means. Its from 'Veins of Gold'.

 

It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity.

 

Another one, is where Siuan sees Rand, when he comes to the White Tower. It refers to the same thing pretty much.

 

She froze as he met her eyes. There was something indefinable about

them, a weight, an age. As though the man behind them was seeing

through the light of a thousand lives compounded in one.

 

He definetly remembered, for an instant, all his past lives. But I dont think the memories are still in his mind, only Lews Therins memories.

 

God.. ive never been aching so much for a book. WoT is truely the best series I have ever read.

Edited by Smilingjack

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According to Sanderson, it was made by damane on the Seanchan continent.

 

 

Uff.. I hope that isnt true, since it would make things a lot more confusing. But then again, there are things in the Aiel prophecy, that is not included in the Prophesies of the Dragon. It may be the same with the Essanik Cycle.

BRANDON SANDERSON

People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik Cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what The Essanik Cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

 

Not sure why it makes it more confusing however?

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According to Sanderson, it was made by damane on the Seanchan continent.

 

 

Uff.. I hope that isnt true, since it would make things a lot more confusing. But then again, there are things in the Aiel prophecy, that is not included in the Prophesies of the Dragon. It may be the same with the Essanik Cycle.

BRANDON SANDERSON

People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik Cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what The Essanik Cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

 

Not sure why it makes it more confusing however?

 

Because, how could Ishamael have corrupted the Essanik Cycle if that was true?

And if they are true, it truly does mean that Rand will bow to the Crystal Throne.. which I really hope he wont have to.

And they might not have preserved it perfectly... mmm.

Well ok.. not so confusing, but it does put things in a different light.

Edited by Smilingjack

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According to Sanderson, it was made by damane on the Seanchan continent.

 

 

Uff.. I hope that isnt true, since it would make things a lot more confusing. But then again, there are things in the Aiel prophecy, that is not included in the Prophesies of the Dragon. It may be the same with the Essanik Cycle.

BRANDON SANDERSON

People are not perfect, alright? Let’s just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik Cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what The Essanik Cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

 

Not sure why it makes it more confusing however?

 

Because, how could Ishamael have corrupted the Essanik Cycle if that was true?

And if they are true, it truly does mean that Rand will bow to the Crystal Throne.. which I really hope he wont have to.

And they might not have preserved it perfectly... mmm.

Well ok.. not so confusing, but it does put things in a different light.

 

The Essanik Cycle and the Kareathon Cycle are two separate things. The KC existed in Seanchan in it's original state before Luthair brought the corrupted version. The EK says nothing about Rand bowing to the Crystal Throne.

Edited by Suttree

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Bowing should not be that difficult to a self-realized Rand, but that could be because I am used to bowing (lived in Japan for five years); the act of bowing in subservience is what seems to be the common interpretation here, but if you read Fortuona's statement it shows subtle hints that she could not face the Dragon Reborn as a near-equal the next time (why she ultimately shed her Daughter of the Nine Moons persona). These subtle hints could be rather closely related to the possible mistranslation of the original prophecy OR the possibility that both translations of the prophecies could be mutually agreeable - meaning if Rand had handled the meeting in a more decent mood then Tuon could possibly have allowed a considerably Lighter ta'veren effect to affect her into an agreement as long as he bowed to her as Empress to fulfill prophecy (hell he went to Tear to fill prophecy before...a little bow in front of a throne [compared to what he has been through thus far] so he can ally himself with half of the Westlands? Pshaw.). Additionally, the ambiguousness of the prophecies reflect the fact that she never said she would not have agreed to Rand at their first meeting - the mistake of Rand forcing on her was the only reason she disagreed. With marath'damane and Rand defending Mat, she was actually quite close to accepting.

This could still happen, but under insanely different circumstances; Fortuona is now essentially rogue-Empress now willing to attack the White Tower - yet again, the first attack was for information on how tough the Aes Sedai are - and deal with the Dragon Reborn's fury. She knows TG is near, and an entirely White Tower on a leash under her wing would raise her chances of winning without the Dark Dragon Reborn.

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I think that maybe the "many become one" phrase is related to the Dragon Reborn "becoming one with the land." The land must include many people and other living things.

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I think that maybe the "many become one" phrase is related to the Dragon Reborn "becoming one with the land." The land must include many people and other living things.

 

I don't think so. The DR has been tied to the land for some time just like the old Fisher King legend, he isn't "becoming" more so.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,

for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

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