New Spring clue?

[bbarrett90]

So, i bought New Spring a few days ago and finished it yesterday. I noticed something at the end that intrigued me, here's a quote to help you spark your memory.

 

"That's mad," Siuan growled. "What links an eight-year-old boy to a coldhearted lionfish like Lan?"

 

"Luck. Diryk survived a fall that should have killed him, and everyone says Lan is the luckiest man alive or the Blight would have killed him years ago. It makes a pattern, but the pattern looks crazy to me. Maybe your blacksmith is even part of it. And Josef Najima, back in Canluum, for all I know. He was lucky, too. Puzzle it out for me if you can. I think it is important, but i cannot see how."

 

Diryk and the blacksmith both died at about the same time Mat and Perrin should have been born in Emonds Field. Were led to believe both were killed by the Black Ajah. Diryk survived a fall that should have killed him, and the blacksmith was carrying six or eight bags of silver he and his guild had raised for the poor to the bank by himself. The latter might refer to the fallen blacksmiths pride of the shadow prophecies, the fact that he didn't think to ask his friends to help him, or to hire guards. That's probably a longshot, but worth mentioning.

 

When Siuan puzzles it out she concludes that it means the Black Ajah doesnt know the DR is a baby, that they're killing anyone who shows any sign of luck. Maybe Mat and Perrin's Ta'veren powers were activated when Rand was born, so that drew attention to them, and therefore brought their death and eventual migration into a new body. Their souls were drawn to Rand's ta'verenness in EF, and so they were placed into bodies there.

 

The only thing i can think of that could disprove this is if we know for sure that either Mat or Perrin were born before Rand on DM, or before the deaths I mentioned took place. (I think that it's about 4 months after Gitara had her foretelling that Siuan and Moiraine are in Chachin)

[Finnssss22]

Mat, Rand and Perrin are born within weeks of each other.

 

The deaths you are talking about happened months after Rand's birth, as in 3-4 months.

For reference, it was about a month and half from the time Mo witnesses the foretelling of the Dragon being reborn till she leaves the WT aboard the Bluewing.

Mat and Perrin were more than likely born before Mo even left TV, let alone by the time she was discovering those events in the Borderlands.

 

http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl0979.htm

[bbarrett90]

Well, how much information do we actually have? Are the dates of Perrin's and Mat's births relative to when Tam returned to the Two Rivers or when Rand was actually born on dragonmount? it could easily have taken Tam 4 months to travel from Tar Valon back to Emonds Field. Like i said, it's probably a longshot for any of this, but i figured it might be worth bringing up.

[Thrasymachus]

It could have taken months, but most likely only took one, maybe two if they were taking it slow with the baby. It only took a couple of weeks for Rand and Mat to get to Caemlyn from Whitebridge, roughly 1/3 of the distance to Emond's Field from Caemlyn, and they were on foot the whole way. Tam would have had horses and a wagon or cart. Most likely, Tam and Rand were back in Emond's Field at roughly the same time Moiraine was raised to the shawl, and Mat and Perrin born a few weeks before that.

 

Finnssss is right, the people in question died weeks or months after Mat and Perrin were born.

[LemonPastie]

Also remember that the way the pattern works the Taveren is that it gives people what is needed in order to succeed. So it didn't have to be Mat & Perrin in anyones body - just the pattern causing them to be lucky/rise quickly to give the BA something to hunt. The poor dead guys are just pawns in keeping Rand safe

[kght22]

they were as the book seems to say, apparently killed because they might be channelers, who were male, which is in line with what happened to male channelers in the 20 years before the eye of the world. it was a mention of what was to come in the 20 years before the dragon declared. i think that someone is reading too much into it.

 

EDIT:(at the start it wasn't just male channelers who were for sure channelers, it was anyone who might be suspected, the ba grew a brain as time went on (because even the red would have noticed them) and tempered their attacks on suspects.)

[Finnssss22]

they were as the book seems to say, apparently killed because they might be channelers, who were male, which is in line with what happened to male channelers in the 20 years before the eye of the world. it was a mention of what was to come in the 20 years before the dragon declared. i think that someone is reading too much into it.

 

EDIT:(at the start it wasn't just male channelers who were for sure channelers, it was anyone who might be suspected, the ba grew a brain as time went on (because even the red would have noticed them) and tempered their attacks on suspects.)

 

Heh, it's not that the BA grew a brain that they stopped killing lucky men, it was because Ishamael found out and was so furious that he killed the head of the BA, Jarna Malari for doing it. That's how Alviarin got the job 20 years ago.

[gloweye]

Mat, Rand and Perrin are born within weeks of each other.

 

The deaths you are talking about happened months after Rand's birth, as in 3-4 months.

For reference, it was about a month and half from the time Mo witnesses the foretelling of the Dragon being reborn till she leaves the WT aboard the Bluewing.

Mat and Perrin were more than likely born before Mo even left TV, let alone by the time she was discovering those events in the Borderlands.

 

http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl0979.htm

 

even more, somewhere halfway EotW, Rand asks Nynaeve why Morraine was looking for them. she answers that Mori asked about boys born in a specific period, and all three of them fitted the bill, because they were born in a timeframe of two weeks (still 20 days, but still short.)

 

they were as the book seems to say, apparently killed because they might be channelers, who were male, which is in line with what happened to male channelers in the 20 years before the eye of the world. it was a mention of what was to come in the 20 years before the dragon declared. i think that someone is reading too much into it.

 

EDIT:(at the start it wasn't just male channelers who were for sure channelers, it was anyone who might be suspected, the ba grew a brain as time went on (because even the red would have noticed them) and tempered their attacks on suspects.)

 

Heh, it's not that the BA grew a brain that they stopped killing lucky men, it was because Ishamael found out and was so furious that he killed the head of the BA, Jarna Malari for doing it. That's how Alviarin got the job 20 years ago.

 

and he did it in a public and... creative way. he somehow put her in a ter'angreaal that took ten days of pain to kill her. painfully.

[Thrasymachus]

I'm not certain, but weren't Rand, Mat and Perrin not even ta'veren until just a while before Moiraine shows up? Being ta'veren isn't like being a channeler or wolfbrother or something. I'm fairly certain one can be ta'veren for a little while and then not be one any more. The early BA hunters weren't looking for ta'veren, they were looking for potential male channelers.

[sleepinghour]

Maybe Mat and Perrin's Ta'veren powers were activated when Rand was born, so that drew attention to them, and therefore brought their death and eventual migration into a new body.

RJ said none of the boys were ta'veren until shortly before Moiraine arrived.

[Nightstrike]

Lanfear seemed to know something about Mat and his other lives. He even had some memories of gambling in his other lives (his own "other lives"). Perrin knew he had carried the axe countless of lives, in one of his own dreams.

 

Then there's the Dark prophecies and the Light's own prophecies. They probably targeted certain people, without a particular timeframe on when they were supposed to have been born.

[rand4747]

the black ajah got so close to being exposed during those years after the dragon was reborn, the ones in the borderlands were killed fortunately for them i guess but it still showed the BA did exist, same with the deaths of the Amyrlyns during that time and many other aes sedai it was exposing the BA too much.

 

But yea all those men were killed just in case they were the BA but many that were lucky were just that, random luck always got there way, someone always gets the luck while others dont, but it is just random. the luck either showed Taverin or people who could channel or both. But yea also just people randomly lucky.

[Didgya]

So, i bought New Spring a few days ago and finished it yesterday. I noticed something at the end that intrigued me, here's a quote to help you spark your memory.

 

"That's mad," Siuan growled. "What links an eight-year-old boy to a coldhearted lionfish like Lan?"

 

"Luck. Diryk survived a fall that should have killed him, and everyone says Lan is the luckiest man alive or the Blight would have killed him years ago. It makes a pattern, but the pattern looks crazy to me. Maybe your blacksmith is even part of it. And Josef Najima, back in Canluum, for all I know. He was lucky, too. Puzzle it out for me if you can. I think it is important, but i cannot see how."

 

Diryk and the blacksmith both died at about the same time Mat and Perrin should have been born in Emonds Field. Were led to believe both were killed by the Black Ajah. Diryk survived a fall that should have killed him, and the blacksmith was carrying six or eight bags of silver he and his guild had raised for the poor to the bank by himself. The latter might refer to the fallen blacksmiths pride of the shadow prophecies, the fact that he didn't think to ask his friends to help him, or to hire guards. That's probably a longshot, but worth mentioning.

 

When Siuan puzzles it out she concludes that it means the Black Ajah doesnt know the DR is a baby, that they're killing anyone who shows any sign of luck. Maybe Mat and Perrin's Ta'veren powers were activated when Rand was born, so that drew attention to them, and therefore brought their death and eventual migration into a new body. Their souls were drawn to Rand's ta'verenness in EF, and so they were placed into bodies there.

 

The only thing i can think of that could disprove this is if we know for sure that either Mat or Perrin were born before Rand on DM, or before the deaths I mentioned took place. (I think that it's about 4 months after Gitara had her foretelling that Siuan and Moiraine are in Chachin)

 

I think you might have come upon a clue that Lan was Ta'veren.

[yoniy0]

[Mat's] own "other lives" [...] Perrin knew he had carried the axe countless of lives, in one of his own dreams.

I don't think that the text supports that interpretation. Mat has only had memories that might come from a former life in two instances - a battle in TEotW and being Healed of the taint of SL. And it's suggested that those aren't other lives at all - but rather the old blood 'singing'. As for Perrin, you're most likely referring to the Dream where Lanfear visited him, correct? What makes you think that anything he was thinking at the time actually came from his own memories? He seemed suspicious of these thoughts himself, and Lanfear was around, after all.

[Nightstrike]

I don't think that the text supports that interpretation. Mat has only had memories that might come from a former life in two instances - a battle in TEotW and being Healed of the taint of SL. And it's suggested that those aren't other lives at all - but rather the old blood 'singing'.

The old blood "comes again" ... Seems to imply it's his past lives after all, otherwise it would have been there all along. Rand is of the old blood as well, but I don't think he has any memories of other souls. People get to see the ancestors' lives in Rhuidean, but that's the only example I can think of when that's happened. The Aelfinn called him "Gambler", like that's his role in the Pattern. It's probably a theme in many of his lives. Lanfear said he didn't know his own importance, and some other stuff too. Like she knew more than we did at the time.

The Dragon Reborn

Chapter 18

The Old Blood comes again

 

As for Perrin, you're most likely referring to the Dream where Lanfear visited him, correct? What makes you think that anything he was thinking at the time actually came from his own memories? He seemed suspicious of these thoughts himself, and Lanfear was around, after all.

It is in TDR, chapter 4. Lanfear popped up during that session, but others did too, and I think he was alone at some point as well (wasn't he alone when he thought about the axe?). What do you mean with "he seemed suspicious"? Why should he be? Ishamael wanted him to throw away the axe; and Lanfear encouraged him to seek glory. Lanfear wanted to rule the world with Rand; and Ishamael wants the utter destruction of the Wheel.

[MikeRiley]

I think you might have come upon a clue that Lan was Ta'veren.

 

Or at least that a Ta'veren was in the vicinity. Was Farstrider ever one, and could he have been around?

[Finnssss22]

 

I think you might have come upon a clue that Lan was Ta'veren.

 

If Lan was Ta'veren, it's a fair bet we would of been told through Siuan.

[Didgya]

 

I think you might have come upon a clue that Lan was Ta'veren.

 

If Lan was Ta'veren, it's a fair bet we would of been told through Siuan.

True, true. I could justify my position reason but I'd still be wrong.

[Orderofolde]

 

I think you might have come upon a clue that Lan was Ta'veren.

 

If Lan was Ta'veren, it's a fair bet we would of been told through Siuan.

She would have had to see other Taveren prior to Rand and Co to know what her gift meant after all, or one would at least think.

[Finnssss22]

 

I think you might have come upon a clue that Lan was Ta'veren.

 

If Lan was Ta'veren, it's a fair bet we would of been told through Siuan.

She would have had to see other Taveren prior to Rand and Co to know what her gift meant after all, or one would at least think.

 

She already knew about her talent for identifying Ta'veren prior to meeting Rand and the boys; tGH Chapter 5.

We just don't know when or more importantly, who she discovered this talent on. If it was Lan 20 years ago though, it most likely would of been mentioned.

[Thrasymachus]

Mat knows how to speak the Old Tongue before he gets his memories. He was the only one that didn't need an interpreter when he went through the doorframe ter'angreal in Tear to get answers to his questions. Where he gets this ability is a bit of a mystery, he yells battlecries in the Old Tongue in the first few chapters of the first book. Moiraine calls it the Old Blood singing, but Perrin is of the old Blood as well and doesn't speak fluent Old Tongue, though he does yell a few phrases from time to time, he has to ask what "he who soars" is in the Old Tongue. Mat's fluency in the Old Tongue is much more than just the Old Blood coming out. It could perhaps be postulated that Mat's association with the dagger of Shadar Logoth broke down some of the barriers between his current life and his previous lives, in a similar manner that the taint on saidin broke the barriers between Lews Therin's life and Rand's.

 

I say perhaps because Mat seems to not know what he's saying in the first books when he yells out in the Old Tongue. When told what he yells, he asks what it means. But he could be covering his own shock and perhaps dismay at being able to speak and understand a dead language he was never taught. It may be that Mat has always been able to speak the Old Tongue fluently, but that it only manifests itself in light of more recent events. In a way, it seems like Harry Potter's Parseltongue, he often doesn't realize he's speaking it, or that it's being spoken, unless he's on guard for it. At the point in the story where Moiraine calls it the Old Blood singing, Mat has every reason to hide that it may be something more, because none of the boys knows exactly what it is that Moiraine and the Darkfriends are looking for yet, or why they want one of them.

[Finnssss22]

Mat knows how to speak the Old Tongue before he gets his memories. He was the only one that didn't need an interpreter when he went through the doorframe ter'angreal in Tear to get answers to his questions. Where he gets this ability is a bit of a mystery, he yells battlecries in the Old Tongue in the first few chapters of the first book. Moiraine calls it the Old Blood singing, but Perrin is of the old Blood as well and doesn't speak fluent Old Tongue, though he does yell a few phrases from time to time, he has to ask what "he who soars" is in the Old Tongue. Mat's fluency in the Old Tongue is much more than just the Old Blood coming out. It could perhaps be postulated that Mat's association with the dagger of Shadar Logoth broke down some of the barriers between his current life and his previous lives, in a similar manner that the taint on saidin broke the barriers between Lews Therin's life and Rand's.

 

I say perhaps because Mat seems to not know what he's saying in the first books when he yells out in the Old Tongue. When told what he yells, he asks what it means. But he could be covering his own shock and perhaps dismay at being able to speak and understand a dead language he was never taught. It may be that Mat has always been able to speak the Old Tongue fluently, but that it only manifests itself in light of more recent events. In a way, it seems like Harry Potter's Parseltongue, he often doesn't realize he's speaking it, or that it's being spoken, unless he's on guard for it. At the point in the story where Moiraine calls it the Old Blood singing, Mat has every reason to hide that it may be something more, because none of the boys knows exactly what it is that Moiraine and the Darkfriends are looking for yet, or why they want one of them.

 

Definitely a possibility or it could be from being the sounder of the Horn or it could be a combination of both.

If you think about it, nothing is tied to the pattern and past lives more directly than the Horn of Valere.

Good theories either way. Hopefully we get some closure on some or all of it in aMoL and barring that, we can get some definitive answers in the book signings, Twitter or updated encyclo after.

[AquilaInfernus]

Sounds more like Jordan was having fun foreshadowing Perrin and Mat's notable features before they were born rather than any metaphysical magicks... He did write New Spring after EotW afterall