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michellem

What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

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It was a very deft piece of manipulation, she played them as well as she did the Tower and it is one of her strongest abilities.

 

Indeed. If the deal is fair, there is nothing wrong if the AS "play best". Everyone knows the score going in. At the same time the impact it will have on accepted, having to go through those life experiences can not be debated. It will bring the WT more firmly into the wide world. No doubt about it.

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Come on guys knock it off He is new Sutt he will learn and Saken come on man as you yourself so aptly put everyone is entitled to their opinion. Sutt Saken offered a very valid point in the argument Sf Channelers are the weakest in WT they have no worth or value there and they always knew they were sacrificial lambs. So, they going back really does not count. Question is would someone of a Talaan's strength would like to go back? In my opinion no

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Question is would someone of a Talaan's strength would like to go back? In my opinion no

 

Talaan has already shown to be the exception in this situation. You have yet to give us any evidence in text for why people would abandon their culture simply to live in Tar Valon at the WT. This at a time where AS "shine" has been exposed and their faults lay plain for all to see. You would have to show a widespread feeling of discontent with their current situations and connect that to explain why they would abandon their culture and peers just because they trained with AS. Yes it might happen, just as an accepted may fall in love with the sea or decide she likes the Aiel structure better(as some AS working with them seem to have already done). The benefits of the intermingling of cultures far outweigh the fact that each group will be trying to influence the other for position.

Edited by Suttree

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To be honest even if no one from the WF or WO ever swaps sides the White Tower gains invaluable knowledge. The accepted which go there will be the best of the White Tower and they will gain;

 

1) Exceptional knowledge on the wielding of Air.

2) How to wield flows without waving your hands. something which neither WO or WF do, this is a massive advantage.

3) Leadership skills from different cultures blending together to form a more adept and powerful union of skills.

4) Bargaining training from those who are widely regarded as the most adept on the planet.

5) How to safely unravel weaves, which uncommonly hard thus giving them greater knowledge of how things work.

 

and most importantly;

 

6) They can teach these skills to future generations of Aes Sedai, even the ones who do not go to train in the other institutions will eventually gain from it.

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Again, I apologize. Perhaps I need to get used to how people respond before I get aggravated.

 

I think Aviendha is a very strong willed female character and yet even she was lured by the silks and baths. Because of her personal strength she was able to resist many of the traps of weakness that wetlanders have fallen in. She was tempted though. We know that there are Aiel that are not as disciplined as she is and can like be lured by these things.

 

I think this same logic holds true to the WFs. My impression of WFs is they appreciate power and what is the most prestigious and powerful organization there is.

 

If you thrust a normal Randlander, for the lack of a better term, in an Aiel camp or a WF vessel. They will be counting down the days until they get to leave. Elayne is a very strong character and first sister to Aviendha. She still finds some of the Aiel ways rediculous.

 

None of this will ever come to fruition but this is how I think it will go down.

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Question is would someone of a Talaan's strength would like to go back? In my opinion no

 

She is penalised because of her lineage, it wouldn't surprise me if anyone in her situation decided they wanted out if they could. perhaps if it happens often enough then the Wind Finders might actually stop being so harsh to try and disavow any sign of favouritism.

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If you thrust a normal Randlander, for the lack of a better term, in an Aiel camp or a WF vessel. They will be counting down the days until they get to leave.

 

We know this isn't true from what we have already seen. Even AS that were initially "datsang" and being heavily punished came around to the Aiel view and now show no signs of leaving. In addition we see the same in Perrin's camp with the grudging respect and they don't try to disassociate themselves once they are now able to.

 

In regards to Morden's point above he is absolutely right especially if one expands it to all three groups. They will all learn new methods and exchange ideas and they will all grow from it. The change he talks of specifically to AS is part of the reason why I said it will be such an important cultural shift for the WT.

Edited by Suttree

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To be honest even if no one from the WF or WO ever swaps sides the White Tower gains invaluable knowledge. The accepted which go there will be the best of the White Tower and they will gain;

 

1) Exceptional knowledge on the wielding of Air.

2) How to wield flows without waving your hands. something which neither WO or WF do, this is a massive advantage.

3) Leadership skills from different cultures blending together to form a more adept and powerful union of skills.

4) Bargaining training from those who are widely regarded as the most adept on the planet.

5) How to safely unravel weaves, which uncommonly hard thus giving them greater knowledge of how things work.

 

and most importantly;

 

6) They can teach these skills to future generations of Aes Sedai, even the ones who do not go to train in the other institutions will eventually gain from it.

2) depends on how they initially learn the weave, if they initially learn it with hand waving, they will always have to use the hand waving

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If you thrust a normal Randlander, for the lack of a better term, in an Aiel camp or a WF vessel. They will be counting down the days until they get to leave.

 

We know this isn't true from what we have already seen. Even AS that were initially "datsang" and being heavily punished came around to the Aiel view and now show no signs of leaving. In addition we see the same in Perrin's camp with the grudging respect and they don't try to disassociate themselves once they are now able to.

 

 

Those women, if I remember correctly, were allowed to swear fealty to the Dragon Reborn. I also assumed the great Verin had something to with them coming around. How much choice did they have?

Edited by Saken

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If you thrust a normal Randlander, for the lack of a better term, in an Aiel camp or a WF vessel. They will be counting down the days until they get to leave.

 

We know this isn't true from what we have already seen. Even AS that were initially "datsang" and being heavily punished came around to the Aiel view and now show no signs of leaving. In addition we see the same in Perrin's camp with the grudging respect and they don't try to disassociate themselves once they are now able to.

 

 

Those women, if I remember correctly, were allowed to swear fealty to the Dragon Reborn. I also assumed the great Verin had something to with them coming around. How much choice did they have?

 

All the choice in the world to attach themselves to Cads & co. as opposed to continuing working with the WOs under their rules..

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Any evidence for that they can join cads and company? I remember a scene where Sorilea comes in and asks all of her apprentice AS for want of better word to leave and they do because they are under order from Rand to obey them who is their liege lord. To them they are not just words. They mean it from their very fabric of being. Verrin was the exception. She could pick up and leave whenever she wanted. From what I have read others of them that are not dark friends cannot leave. Therefore, your argument that they can join Cads and company whenever they want is moot.

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Any evidence for that they can join cads and company? I remember a scene where Sorilea comes in and asks all of her apprentice AS for want of better word to leave and they do because they are under order from Rand to obey them who is their liege lord. To them they are not just words. They mean it from their very fabric of being. Verrin was the exception. She could pick up and leave whenever she wanted. From what I have read others of them that are not dark friends cannot leave. Therefore, your argument that they can join Cads and company whenever they want is moot.

 

Mudd, reread the section my friend. Remember that a short while ago you thought WOs declared all AS datsang when it as actually only this group. As soon as those AS finished what they had to do to move past that tile they were free to swear to Rand and from there could have moved to Cads group if they so wished and some of them did just that.

Edited by Suttree

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If you thrust a normal Randlander, for the lack of a better term, in an Aiel camp or a WF vessel. They will be counting down the days until they get to leave.

 

We know this isn't true from what we have already seen. Even AS that were initially "datsang" and being heavily punished came around to the Aiel view and now show no signs of leaving. In addition we see the same in Perrin's camp with the grudging respect and they don't try to disassociate themselves once they are now able to.

 

 

Those women, if I remember correctly, were allowed to swear fealty to the Dragon Reborn. I also assumed the great Verin had something to with them coming around. How much choice did they have?

 

All the choice in the world to attach themselves to Cads & co. as opposed to continuing working with the WOs under their rules..

 

Actually the Verin bit is important. I think it's with Elza that we get to see this the clearest - Verin seems to be compulsing them to help the DR, but they have to find their owm motivation. For Elza it's that he has to be alive to fight the LB because she thinks that's how the DO is freed(or something like that). Cads at this stage is closer to the DR, so it makes more sense to attach themselves. So considering that all the sat'sand have been compulsed, the swearing to Rand and actions that led the WO to un dat'sand them weren't necesarily their own choice.

 

With regards to the deal - I don't see AS staying with either WO or WF, unless their cultures change they'd have no position (more so with the WF than the WO to be fair - with Eg the WO did show they were open to newcomers). Not sure with the WF (staying onshore) how much the need to be at sea has something to do with it - I generally view it as something close to the Longing the Ogier felt. I struggle to see WO staying at Sea, given their massive fear of water. WO staying with AS, possible, depends on how much Eg can change the AS power structure.

 

Agreed all 3 stand to learn an awful lot - and that all 3 will try to gain the most from it. But all 3 institutions will change as a result of this, and it's probably best not to forget the Kin as a significant 4th group of female channelers.

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She is not even prepared to listen to Rand.

 

Eh, I don't know if that's true. Rand didn't try very hard to convince her. It was more like "Hey, Egwene. Nice place you have here. Whelp, I'm going to go smash the seals to the Dark One's prison. See you later."

 

There was no way he could convince her which would have been timely or productive, by doing what he did, it spurred her into action to get EVERY single king,queen and army there that she could in an effort to stop him from breaking them. Do you honestly think those nobles would have agreed to go if they knew that Rand was about to start Tarmon Gai'don?

 

Oh, of course. I think Rand knew exactaly what he was doing there.

 

That being said, blaming Egwene for thinking that breaking the seals was a bad idea, when she did not have enough information to think otherwise, is not fair.

 

Now I think there is a risk of this going the way it did in the AOL with all the female Aes Sedi refusing to help Lewis Therrin, with horrible consequence, but I don't think Egwene is going to do that. If she does, then you can blame her

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Oh, Egwene. She should have turned to the shadow. Light knows she did enough to help them out. How I loathe this character. I do so because I know far too many self-destructive, self-appointed know-it-alls in the real world to lend any sort of sympathy to her in Randland. I was so, so hoping she would die as I read the series the first time. Thankfully, she did just that. But even that moment was tainted with superior self-righteousness. "She was... the Flame of Tar Valon!" *gag!* I was shocked that other characters were allowed to mourn "Rand" at the end. Didn't she pass some edict during her final moments, some decree declaring that all men were vile beasts and Rand chief among them? No. She didn't. But she wanted to. She should have picked the Red. And now a phallus-like monument stands erect where she died. Fitting, if you ask me. I celebrated when she died. Still do. Good riddance, you spoiled little chit. And thanks for wanting to release the Dark One. I'm sure Randland appreciated that. Hope they saw the error of your ways in hindsight. Give me Elida any day. At least she made me laugh.

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