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michellem

What is the deal with the Egwene-hate?

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Last I checked, one of the Prophecies Rand has to face is "To face the wrath of the Amyrlin"?

 

You might want to double check. It was a foretelling from Elaida and it said...

 

A Crown of Swords

"Prologue"

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.

 

Most think this was taken care of in the Chapter titled "The Amyrlin's Anger" in ToM, for all that it was anticlimactic.

Edited by Suttree

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Most think this was taken care of in the Chapter titled "The Amyrlin's Anger" in ToM, for all that it was anticlimactic.

I agree it was anticlimactic, but there was no other way it could go. What was eggy supposed to do, have a tantrum? Lash out at rand with the power? Any of those would have lowered everyone's (both reader and character) opinions of her. None of that would have bothered or effected zenRand. Prophecies do not always mean what we think they do.

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A nice chapter for the Amyrlin's Anger would be Egwene confronting Rand about making sisters swear to him and using them to do his bidding.As an Amyrlin she would have basis for that as she is the leader of the AS. But that was pushed aside and a stupid chapter was written about Egwene angry at Rand for telling her he was going to break the seals she has not seen or has in her control.Rand could have broken them any time without telling anyone,where is the justification for the "anger"? It is not like he stole it from the the AS.

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For myself I dislike some of Egwene's character traits, but overall I think most of her problem is jealousy, she has a tendancy to be somewhat hostile to anyone she is jealous off. She's very jealous of Rand because he is the Dragon Reborn and fated to save the world. But thats not fair, she wants to save the world, so she takes a polar reaction to whatever he says. She's jealous of how powerful Nynaeve is compared with her so does her best to control her and keep her in check.

 

Part of this is she hasnt really grown up, her maturity is like her strength in the OP, it was forced so never really got the chance to grow, and she's been pushed around and pushed into things so much that she will not allow it to happen again.

 

She's probably the most Love-Hate characters in the book, everyone loves her, just some love to hate her for how annoying/hypocritical/arrogant.

 

My biggest dislike for her is how she see's the WT as the most important thing. Its a damned building and really means didly squat in the grand scheme of things, maybe if that abomination got levelled then the Aes Sedai could rebuild fresh and actually start acting wise again, instead of acting like bickering school girls.

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So in short the Egwene-hate exists because her flaws are realistic. They probably remind the haters of themselves and one of the reasons for reading a book like this is to get away from real life. Everyone in the real world is a hypocrite and has double standards. Myself included. It usually depends on the situation as to why our double standards exist.

 

Aside from that remember this is a character arc and things are always fluid - again it depends on context. It is a dynamic flow of events not a static stock shot of the person like you might see in the news media.

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For myself I dislike some of Egwene's character traits, but overall I think most of her problem is jealousy, she has a tendancy to be somewhat hostile to anyone she is jealous off. She's very jealous of Rand because he is the Dragon Reborn and fated to save the world. But thats not fair, she wants to save the world, so she takes a polar reaction to whatever he says. She's jealous of how powerful Nynaeve is compared with her so does her best to control her and keep her in check.

 

I truly would like you to show quotes that lead you to believe she is jealous of Rand for being the DR. She feels a responsibility to make the WT whole in order for it to help face the shadow but not sure where you get the rest. Further with Nyn she had been bullied by her for her entire life and enjoyed when the balance of power finally evened out. That part of the story was a coming of age moment and nothing more, there is zero evidence to suggest she was driven by being less powerful. It was meant to be a comparison with Nyn as a young wisdom that people didn't respect and Eggy as a young Amyrlin.

 

My biggest dislike for her is how she see's the WT as the most important thing. Its a damned building and really means didly squat in the grand scheme of things, maybe if that abomination got levelled then the Aes Sedai could rebuild fresh and actually start acting wise again, instead of acting like bickering school girls.

 

The WT as an institution means an enormous amount, that is part of the reason why it's so dissapointing it has failed. Neverthelss they already are rebuilding fresh. As mentioned she has called the AS fools and claims they must change moving forward. Her reforms already have it well on the way and getting the men involved on equal footing post TG will continue the evolution.

Edited by Suttree

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I don't like her for the fact that she thinks she is the equal of the DR. It is like the President of the US telling Jesus reborn,hey dude let us work together as I am the head of the most important country in the world.And this considering that the WT does not even have close to the power of the US in the WoT world.

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I don't like her for the fact that she thinks she is the equal of the DR. It is like the President of the US telling Jesus reborn,hey dude let us work together as I am the head of the most important country in the world.And this considering that the WT does not even have close to the power of the US in the WoT world.

 

Haha, well US working together with Jesus would be like The Dragon Reborn working together with The Forsaken.

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I don't like her for the fact that she thinks she is the equal of the DR. It is like the President of the US telling Jesus reborn,hey dude let us work together as I am the head of the most important country in the world.And this considering that the WT does not even have close to the power of the US in the WoT world.

 

Haha, well US working together with Jesus would be like The Dragon Reborn working together with The Forsaken.

 

touche. :)

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I don't know why others hate Egwene so much, but I haven't liked her since I read the first book for the first time. It always bugged me how she just forced herself into the party leaving because she wanted adventure, and then became obsessed with becoming an Aes Sedai. There a few moments in the first few books where she's okay, like how she gets excited Rand could be her Warder (because I just think that little scene in the Blight is cute =3) and I feel sympathy for her when she's a damane because she didn't deserve that, and it wasn't nice to read how she was treated.

 

The biggest problem I have with her, though, is her pretentiousness. As soon as she finds out she can dream, she's a strong channeler, she begins to constantly argue with Nynaeve in tDR, she gets trained by the Wise Ones for reasons I never understood and then manages to deal with everything because she spent a few months with them. I dunno, her character just grates on me. I can't even like her when she's saving the White Tower from destruction in the Gathering Storm, because it's her who saves the day. Ugh.

 

In fact, the only time I kind of like her in the latter part of the series is when she bests Elaida in so many ways during her captivity. But then she's just the lesser of two evils, so... =P

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I truly would like you to show quotes that lead you to believe she is jealous of Rand for being the DR.

 

No, I don't think she was ever jealous of him being the DR. Hell, who would be? Apart from a few cool perks (tattoos), it kind of sucks as a job. That said, I think she might have been a little jealous of the importance and power it gave him, before she became Amyrlin that is. Specifically in tSR, tFoH, and LoC. I'm going to re-read them soon, so I'll see then, but I've always thought there was a tiny bit of jealousy. Well, that and the fact that she thought he was getting a big head. However, she was definitely jealous of what he could do with the One Power, for instance the seeker lightning in the Stone, and travelling. Personally, and I may be wrong, but I've always thought she was little competitive with Rand, so she was perhaps a little frustrated at first that he was outpacing her. It would explain their tendancy to butt heads. Afterall as Egwene herself said: "Everyone said Two Rivers men were stubborn, but they could not match Two Rivers women."

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She's not a character I've ever warmed to, mostly because of her female chauvinism, arrogance and lack of self-awareness. That said, I have few, if any, complaints about the role her character has played in the plot; it's more about her personality along the way. She could have been made more sympathetic with some pretty minor tweaks in the writing.

 

For example, in TDR, she starts being a bitch to Nynaeve. The two of them have been close for years, Nynaeve saved her from the Seanchan and pretty much hasn't put a foot wrong since, and then out of the blue Egwene starts thinking she has just as much right to be in charge and becomes pretty unpleasant about it. Making that transition smoother through conversation or internal reflection would have made it more believable and sympathetic; as it is, she just seems like an ungrateful, spoilt brat. Yet the story needs her to start growing in assertiveness and taking on leadership roles.

 

Likewise in TOM, with the Bloodknives debacle. Some internal pondering along the lines of "Am I right, am I wrong, there might be real consequences for the people in my care if I've reasoned wrong" would have softened what came across as pigheaded arrogance and blind stupidity. Yet the story needs her to be making decisions and having an impact in the Tower.

 

So while she's one of my least favourite characters in WOT, I'm sure Jordan didn't mean her to be so unpopular and it wouldn't have taken much to make her far less so. Unfortunately, Sanderson has just made the situation worse as far as I'm concerned, though this isn't the place to get into that.

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I think a lot of it comes down to one thing.

 

She does a good job in her plotline and has good skills and ideas. She does some good things for the story and helps out the LIght.

 

She does stupid things, just like all of the characters, but why people don't like her is simple: She is not a likeable person. Plot-wise, she has done an overall good job, and you would go to her for help. But apart from that, you would just want to avoid her because of her crappy personality.

 

She is like an unlike-able cousin. You know she is there for you, and you would help her out, but you just don't want to spend much time with her.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

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I don't know why others hate Egwene so much, but I haven't liked her since I read the first book for the first time. It always bugged me how she just forced herself into the party leaving because she wanted adventure, and then became obsessed with becoming an Aes Sedai. There a few moments in the first few books where she's okay, like how she gets excited Rand could be her Warder (because I just think that little scene in the Blight is cute =3) and I feel sympathy for her when she's a damane because she didn't deserve that, and it wasn't nice to read how she was treated.

 

The biggest problem I have with her, though, is her pretentiousness. As soon as she finds out she can dream, she's a strong channeler, she begins to constantly argue with Nynaeve in tDR, she gets trained by the Wise Ones for reasons I never understood and then manages to deal with everything because she spent a few months with them. I dunno, her character just grates on me. I can't even like her when she's saving the White Tower from destruction in the Gathering Storm, because it's her who saves the day. Ugh.

 

In fact, the only time I kind of like her in the latter part of the series is when she bests Elaida in so many ways during her captivity. But then she's just the lesser of two evils, so... =P

 

 

Egwene haters are nothing more rand al thor fanboys. Nothing more nothing less. Notice how they constantly moan about all thinsg aes sedai and the white tower and yet have no problems singing the praises of those sisters who are rand al thor lackeys.

 

 

No matter how much they try to give pitiful reasons for their hate or try and justify it, deep down they know that's the main reason. And they will seldom admit it. But you dont have to take my word for it. Every single poster on this board with the egwene hate blinders is a confirmed al thor fanboy

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I don't know why others hate Egwene so much, but I haven't liked her since I read the first book for the first time. It always bugged me how she just forced herself into the party leaving because she wanted adventure, and then became obsessed with becoming an Aes Sedai. There a few moments in the first few books where she's okay, like how she gets excited Rand could be her Warder (because I just think that little scene in the Blight is cute =3) and I feel sympathy for her when she's a damane because she didn't deserve that, and it wasn't nice to read how she was treated.

 

The biggest problem I have with her, though, is her pretentiousness. As soon as she finds out she can dream, she's a strong channeler, she begins to constantly argue with Nynaeve in tDR, she gets trained by the Wise Ones for reasons I never understood and then manages to deal with everything because she spent a few months with them. I dunno, her character just grates on me. I can't even like her when she's saving the White Tower from destruction in the Gathering Storm, because it's her who saves the day. Ugh.

 

In fact, the only time I kind of like her in the latter part of the series is when she bests Elaida in so many ways during her captivity. But then she's just the lesser of two evils, so... =P

 

 

Egwene haters are nothing more rand al thor fanboys. Nothing more nothing less. Notice how they constantly moan about all thinsg aes sedai and the white tower and yet have no problems singing the praises of those sisters who are rand al thor lackeys.

 

 

No matter how much they try to give pitiful reasons for their hate or try and justify it, deep down they know that's the main reason. And they will seldom admit it. But you dont have to take my word for it. Every single poster on this board with the egwene hate blinders is a confirmed al thor fanboy

 

Yep, you sure nailed us. Time to pack it up guys, our ruse has been discovered. It was a good run, but Elan Tedronai has lanced straight to the beating black heart of our rage and exposed us for the charlatans we really are./sarcasm

 

In any case, 10/10 troll post, would laugh again. Keep up the good work Elan, you're always good for a chuckle or two.

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I don't know why others hate Egwene so much, but I haven't liked her since I read the first book for the first time. It always bugged me how she just forced herself into the party leaving because she wanted adventure, and then became obsessed with becoming an Aes Sedai. There a few moments in the first few books where she's okay, like how she gets excited Rand could be her Warder (because I just think that little scene in the Blight is cute =3) and I feel sympathy for her when she's a damane because she didn't deserve that, and it wasn't nice to read how she was treated.

 

The biggest problem I have with her, though, is her pretentiousness. As soon as she finds out she can dream, she's a strong channeler, she begins to constantly argue with Nynaeve in tDR, she gets trained by the Wise Ones for reasons I never understood and then manages to deal with everything because she spent a few months with them. I dunno, her character just grates on me. I can't even like her when she's saving the White Tower from destruction in the Gathering Storm, because it's her who saves the day. Ugh.

 

In fact, the only time I kind of like her in the latter part of the series is when she bests Elaida in so many ways during her captivity. But then she's just the lesser of two evils, so... =P

 

 

Egwene haters are nothing more rand al thor fanboys. Nothing more nothing less. Notice how they constantly moan about all thinsg aes sedai and the white tower and yet have no problems singing the praises of those sisters who are rand al thor lackeys.

 

 

No matter how much they try to give pitiful reasons for their hate or try and justify it, deep down they know that's the main reason. And they will seldom admit it. But you dont have to take my word for it. Every single poster on this board with the egwene hate blinders is a confirmed al thor fanboy

 

Yep, you sure nailed us. Time to pack it up guys, our ruse has been discovered. It was a good run, but Elan Tedronai has lanced straight to the beating black heart of our rage and exposed us for the charlatans we really are./sarcasm

 

In any case, 10/10 troll post, would laugh again. Keep up the good work Elan, you're always good for a chuckle or two.

 

Wait a second, this also explains the Perrin hate! The hate is clearly due to... their Mat love!

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with all due respect (as was clear if u readed my post) not all Egwenr dislike are Rand fan.

 

for me it about her disrespect toward her mentors Nyn/Siuan and her out of controll arrogence.

 

and its about how every AS portraid as an idiot just so that the 18 year old wonder GIRL could be seen as a wise genius ! ,like how she give a brown sitter advice on how to deal with a warder getting old, which i found as a streatch that a young girl who never had serious relationship yet, never had a warder yet, and hadnt deal with the affect of old age on ppl (Bran hadnt shown any effect of old age limiting him) can advice an AS who is much older and much more experienced then her, and even if the AS needed help why would she go to Egw in the first place.

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I don't know why others hate Egwene so much, but I haven't liked her since I read the first book for the first time. It always bugged me how she just forced herself into the party leaving because she wanted adventure, and then became obsessed with becoming an Aes Sedai. There a few moments in the first few books where she's okay, like how she gets excited Rand could be her Warder (because I just think that little scene in the Blight is cute =3) and I feel sympathy for her when she's a damane because she didn't deserve that, and it wasn't nice to read how she was treated.

 

The biggest problem I have with her, though, is her pretentiousness. As soon as she finds out she can dream, she's a strong channeler, she begins to constantly argue with Nynaeve in tDR, she gets trained by the Wise Ones for reasons I never understood and then manages to deal with everything because she spent a few months with them. I dunno, her character just grates on me. I can't even like her when she's saving the White Tower from destruction in the Gathering Storm, because it's her who saves the day. Ugh.

 

In fact, the only time I kind of like her in the latter part of the series is when she bests Elaida in so many ways during her captivity. But then she's just the lesser of two evils, so... =P

 

 

Egwene haters are nothing more rand al thor fanboys. Nothing more nothing less. Notice how they constantly moan about all thinsg aes sedai and the white tower and yet have no problems singing the praises of those sisters who are rand al thor lackeys.

 

 

No matter how much they try to give pitiful reasons for their hate or try and justify it, deep down they know that's the main reason. And they will seldom admit it. But you dont have to take my word for it. Every single poster on this board with the egwene hate blinders is a confirmed al thor fanboy

 

I don't know if you misunderstood what I was saying because of the first part of the first sentence, but I actually am an Egwene hater. Can't stand the character. But in regards to being a Rand fanboy or the like, I don't think that's true. To be quite honest, most of the time, I'm not too fond of Rand either. And many of the Aes Sedai I have issues with are the ones that are Rand's 'lackeys' as you put it: they either have no backbone or are too stubborn. At least there's a little more variety in the White Tower/Salidar lot.

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lack of self-awareness.

 

This part is quite simply not true, just to use one example:

 

TGS

 

Had she fallen into the same trap as Siuan? It was a danger. She had been trained by Siuan, after all. If Egwene had explained in more detail how well her work in the White Tower was going, would the others have stayed their hands?

 

It was a difficult line to walk. There were many secrets that an Amyrlin had to hold. To be transparent would be to lose her edge of authority. But with Siuan herself, Egwene should have been more forthcoming. The woman was too accustomed to taking action on her own. The way she had kept that dream ter'angreal against the Hall's knowledge and wishes was an indication of that. Yet Egwene had approved of that, unconsciously encouraging Siuan to defy authority.

 

Yes, Egwene had made mistakes. She could not lay all the blame on Siuan, Bryne and Gawyn. She had likely made other mistakes as well; she would need to look at her own actions in more detail later.

 

She often sticks to her guns a bit too far but to say she lacks self awareness is false. There are far too many examples that point to the contrary.

 

and its about how every AS portraid as an idiot just so that the 18 year old wonder GIRL could be seen as a wise genius !

 

This is not only true of Egwene, it happens across the board when characters come into conflict, especially under Sanderson.

Edited by Suttree

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I've never understood the level of Egwene hate. She has her annoying habits (as do many of the characters) but that is what makes them feel more real.

 

I think she is great when she stands up to Elaida and in fighting off the Seanchan. These are her best scenes in my opinion.

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