Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sign in to follow this  
phoenix

The gasp event in knife of dreams

Recommended Posts

I find it amazing that ppl don't think the Amayer killing themselves is not the "gasp" moment. RJ even said he found it sad that ppl didn't recognize the gasp moment. I guess he thought most of his readers had more compassion than they do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we lack compassion. I'd rather say that most here felt a great sadness about the Amayar. But it wasn't that big a surprise because we didn't really know that much about them. Hence mourning, not gasping.

 

Of course there are certainly some shadowrunners here who didn't even bat an eyelid over the death of a people. But that's not enough do condemn the rest of us, is it. :mrgreen:

 

Moric of the Singing Wind sept of the Miagoma aiel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought it was Alvarian that caused their actual deaths (well their suicides) she was in Tremalking for three weeks after the cleanising trying to find out what all that power was up to. I just blamed her for talking the elders into killing themselves. That way I didn't have to blame Rand and Nyn. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found the GASP event to be too similar to the cult suicide in Guyana in the 70s.

 

With that in mind, I just viewed it as some crazy cult-like sensationalist news story. It seemed to be given that treatment, rather than that of an honorable culture self-destructing and fading from the world, causing the entire world to mourn.

 

So then is it me? Is it us that are too cynical and/or jaded? Or did RJ give the event short shrift?

 

I guess I think it is both. Maybe someone in Randland will eventually say: "Don't drink the Amayar Kool-Aid."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An obvious question comes to mind.

 

Why on earth would I feel compassion or sad for the mass suicide of an inconsequential people in a work of fiction? By inconsequential, I mean, they were never really involved in the series storyline. Sure, RJ might feel their loss because he is the author and knows all the connections these people have to the mainland, but we don't, and might never know. I know nothing about these people beyond the 200 words, if that, that he has written about them. Moiraine's "death" was far more noteworthy or GASPing then this mass suicide could ever be because he had at least invested over 200 words to the character.

 

Obviously, in sheer scope a mass suicide of an entire people is grand compared to a single character, but again, it leads me to question why he did this. In a novelistic sense I just think it was a rather monstrous/simplistic way to prove a point that we already knew. The point being the Last Battle was near. I mean does the audience really need to be beat over the head with this point?

 

What makes me sad is that RJ is very subtle in so many ways, but this event was entirely overkill and unneeded, unless of course it leads to something more. If so, then it's the author's prerogative and I'm sure he would have his reasons and I look forward to finding them out. Though if there was no importance to this mass suicide in the scheme of things (i.e.- the Amayar could had knowledge that would help in taming the Seanchan, sealing the bore, etc.), then I feel disappointed that it was even included.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obscure might be a better word than subtle.

 

Jordan beats us over the head repeatedly with minor points. There are whole passages in every book where it's nearly impossible for your eyes not to glaze over because you've read the same words so many times before.

 

Then along comes something major and it gets one paragraph. And, none of the surrounding details are ever filled in.

 

The Empress, may she live forever, and all of the Imperial Court gone in an eyeblink. The Empire in chaos and civil war. That seemed to be a bigger gasper to me than the voluntary death of a cult.

 

But, in both cases, we lack enough familiarity with both the culture and the individuals to feel any real sense of loss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The point Jordan was implying is Rand cleansed the taint from sadin but in doing so it caused the destruction of the Female Choden Kal which in turn caused the deaths of an entire race of people. The question is if Rand had know of the consequences of this action would he have still attempted the cleaning? I think not. I will admit RJs point was rather lame in its execution ONLY because we did not have enough of a connection with the people in question. Now if it would have caused the death of every Tinker then we would have gasped. I know I would have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob I agree with you about the way he concludes things very quicky. The entire fight between the Seanchan and Windfinders was almost an after thought. Mat's battle with Couldin was all off screen leaving a disappointment for me. Most of his major battles have been that way

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Froix

Does this mean the Choedan Kal has never been used before? Or is it a result of Rand, the Dragon Reborn, using it?

 

As for Rand losing his hand, who needs hands when you've got the kind of power he has. Then again, with three wives, he's got his hands... his hand full.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Neither of the Choedan Kal had ever been used before, we learned in one of the earlier books that they were finished very late in the War of the Shadow and the access ter'angreal were hidden away after it was learned that the DO's counter stroke had tainted saiden and the male Aes Sedai were going insane.

 

Sometimes it is very hard to grasp an event in a fictional story, the writer is so much more deeply involved in a story than his readers. I'll admit the first time I read KoD that the death of the Amayar didn't touch me that deeply, I was in too much of a hurry to move on to the next revelation. My second, and third, slower reads elicited a much stronger response.

 

Try to put it in a context you can grasp. What if every man, woman, and child on the British Isle committed mass suicide, our world would be shocked to it's toe nails. To make it even worse we really have no society in our world that corresponds exactly with the Amayar. They were a closed society with every member on those islands, none visiting relatives in Illian, Tear, or Amadacia. No cousins, nieces, or nephews in any villages here, there, or anywhere. Every person with a drop of the blood of the Amayar is gone. What if every Catholic or Baptist or Buddhist, not just a few hundred extremists, took there lives tomorrow? Would you be shocked? Might it produce even a small gasp? RJ is connected to every character in his novel, his favorite is whichever he is writing about at the moment, for him to tell the story of the death of an entire civilization would have touched him deeply. Not every reader can sink himself deeply enough into a work of fiction to feel as deeply as RJ would or did. It is not an insult, it is just an example of how different people interact with a work of fiction. People who didn't really gasp at the death of the Amayar may very well have cried buckets after the attack on 9/11.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We learned the Choedan Kal had never been used in the Assult at Shayoh Ghul, where they were finished, and Demandred and Semirhage (?) attacked the building site of them and the control ter'angreal. LTT rages at Rand before Rand cleanses the pattern, saying that they were never used and that using them is suicide.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TigerToe

the golden crane flies for malkier!!

 

this gave me WOOD!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although the battles really seem like they are an after thoughts, they are more like reality than we would like. Not every battle(minor or not) lasts forever, sometimes there is a slaughter and things are over quickly (ala Mat in KoD and the Windfinders battle against the BA). I was disappointed w/ the whole Turon thing, Matt is my fav character, but unless we wanted to see a whole 2 more books leading up to the Last Battle, then some liberties had to be taken i guess. Rand losing his hand was a gasp event for me, only because of the simple fact that you kind of skim over Mins readings in the first 2 books. On more than one occassion he mentions he will lose a hand, she even goes as far as to tell Elayne that she will have to deal with the losing of a hand, just not her own. That event and Golden Crane of Malkire raising again(not to the "excitement" Tigertoe had) had been shockers to me. all throughout the books it has been made clear that lan would never lead men in a fight against the dark, but bam.. there it is and Ny is all but leading the charge, i guess it was just one of those twists you never see coming until it happens

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For me, I wasn't very surprised by Lan's decision to fly the Golden Crane. They'd been building up to it since Lan entered Fal Dara in The Eye of the World and everyone asked him if the Golden Crane was going to fly again. I mean, I loved the scene, and I was very moved, but I wasn't shocked. The fact that they'd said over and over again that Lan would never lead an army into the blight was a totally give away that Lan was going to lead an army into the blight. I mean come on! It's the last battle! He's not just going to be Nyaeneve's lap dog the whole time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

he has been her lap dog for a long time, i mean who else would protect her now, she will be at rands side during the last battle, no better place for Lan to be, the heart of the action so to speak, besides it would be fitting that they all start out together and all end up in the last battle together

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The question is if Rand had know of the consequences of this action would he have still attempted the cleaning? I think not.
I have to disagree with this. Rand KNOWS everything he is doing is causing uncounted numbers of deaths. He is willing to sacrifice almost the entire Aiel race towards the goal of defeating the dark one. While he will be greatly saddened when he hears about the suicides, I personally think he won't consider himself responsible. If a representative had come to him and said "oh by the way, if you ever use that, we will all commit suicide" he would have had a harder time deciding to use it, but I think even then he would have done it (although he WOULD have mourned for them then & added a race to his list).

 

For me it wasn't a GASP moment because I had to stop & think who they were & then again I had to wonder why they did it until everything clicked in my head. At that point I was thinking more along the lines of what misguided people. If I had more info about the race & there was a bit more buildup concerning the end of illusion so I realized "OMG - THAT'S what they meant by the end of the age of illusion!" It definately would have been a gasp moment.

 

At least for me, the murder of the Imperial family was a much larger gasp moment. Considering how well protected EVERYONE was, to just have everyone be killed in a fingersnap was a proverbial drenching of cold water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The question is if Rand had know of the consequences of this action would he have still attempted the cleaning? I think not.
I have to disagree with this. Rand KNOWS everything he is doing is causing uncounted numbers of deaths. He is willing to sacrifice almost the entire Aiel race towards the goal of defeating the dark one. While he will be greatly saddened when he hears about the suicides' date=' I personally think he won't consider himself responsible. If a representative had come to him and said "oh by the way, if you ever use that, we will all commit suicide" he would have had a harder time deciding to use it, but I think even then he would have done it (although he WOULD have mourned for them then & added a race to his list).

 

For me it wasn't a GASP moment because I had to stop & think who they were & then again I had to wonder why they did it until everything clicked in my head. At that point I was thinking more along the lines of what misguided people. If I had more info about the race & there was a bit more buildup concerning the end of illusion so I realized "OMG - THAT'S what they meant by the end of the age of illusion!" It definately would have been a gasp moment.

 

At least for me, the murder of the Imperial family was a much larger gasp moment. Considering how well protected EVERYONE was, to just have everyone be killed in a fingersnap was a proverbial drenching of cold water.[/quote']

 

I have to agree. He's always thinking of people in the world in terms of tools that can be used. He constantly regrets it, and does it anyway. I'm not sure he has any alternative; I'm not willing to condemn him ethically. He is after all, trying to save the world from annhilation.

 

J

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rand has made a lot of bonehead decisions to avoid the death of people, especially women all through out this series. He may use people to get what he wants, but he does not just throw people out there as cannon fodder. The people that fight for him are trained soldiers and death in service is their job. He has not porposfully sent civilians into the grinder to get anything as I recall. He takes on the damage himself.

 

If Rand had any idea they would commit mass suicide he would have found another way to cleanse the taint, or he would have just let it be the end being near and all. Except the author was using this event to preach.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My gasp for the people of Tremelking are as follows:

 

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Ho hum. Who cares. I thought the best gaspy part was my boy Narishma standing up to the uppity ones.

 

He should of went on the orders of the M'Hael! LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand that the death of an entire people, the Amayar, would be catastrophic, but as has already been mentioned, we weren't given enough connections or enough information to identify with them or know more than a rather trivial amount about them, hence so few ppl gasped at the "end of illusions."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Lord Captain Valda

The mass suicide of the Amayar wasn't the gasp event for me, but I have a reason. The whole week before I read it we were studying the Holocaust and genocide in school. So after talking about genocide for 7 hours straight and then reading it it made no impact. Tuon marrying Mat was no gasp event either. You knew it was going to happen to it was more of a, "Wow, that was a strange time," then anything else. The gasp event for me was Rand losing his hand. Sure he had taken worse emotional wounds and even horrible physical wounds, but this was his HAND! Remember he's technically a blademaster and taking off a hand is horrible. Just the day to day usage is different. The only thought I have is that he might have to use the power more and experience the quesiness (spellcheck).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd have to agree with you. The deaths of the Amayar was kind of a suprise moment, but I was simply stunned when Rand lost his hand. It just changes the invincible image RJ's been building him into.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i think that the Amayar deaths is a reasonable gasp moment. Even given the fact there is no real emotional connection to them, and yea, that it is only a fictional work and not real, I still think it's worthy simply for the vicarious emotional response of sadness that any good thing can have such horrible consequences. It's like thinking about how every action we take has results for others besides ourselves, and that's a real life application right there. :wink:

 

Also, for people complaining that rj never really built up enough or focused enough on some events earlier in the books: I really enjoy how he does that because it makes everything more exciting adn sort of forces one to become enveloped in the books and pay close attention, as opposed to speed reading the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...