Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sign in to follow this  
zerachiel76

Was Dashiva's character changed?

Recommended Posts

I've just re-read ACOS again and I'm starting to wonder if RJ originally envisaged Dashiva as Aginor reborn from the beginning. The thing that makes me wonder the most is how much he appears to help the Asha'Man find new talents and skills.

 

I don't know the exact quote (I'm sure someone can find it) but Flynn explains that it was Dashiva who encouraged both his experiments with healing and other Asha'Man to find out what they can do. I just don't see how this is either spreading chaos (as per the "let the lord of chaos rule instruction) or hindering and sabotaging Rand's forces.

 

There are myriad reasons for Aginor to be put as a spy into Rand's forces but why actively try to improve them while you're there? If you just want to stay unseen just stay as "one of the herd" and don't draw attention to yourself.

 

When Dashiva is ultimately unmasked as Aginor reborn it was not only a shock to me but seemed a complete reversal in direction for his character who prior to that point was a bit mad (always staring into space) and strong in the power but nothing like his personality revealed in later books.

 

I wonder if RJ originally had a different Asha'Man in mind for Aginor but changed his mind while writing APOD as this could explain some of the personality changes which appeared to happen to Dashiva between LOC/ACOS and APOD onwards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) Aginor was a researcher, and his interactions with other Forsaken reveal a pedantic, lecturing streak.

2) Dashiva was not a fighter, and was being tossed into the thick. You'd better bet he'd encourage the field medic to use his entire medical pack- just in case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time I recall Dashiva helping Asha'man with weaves was when Flynn was trying to heal Rand after the attack from Fain. As per the Dark One's orders, Rand was supposed to live, so it's not unreasonable Dashiva would be willing to guide Flynn some under those circumstances.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, I just read the very beginning to ACoS, (I believe that just after Dumai's Wells is the first we see of Dashiva?) and the revelation that Dashiva is a Forsaken completely throws the scene on its head. Pay close attention to WHEN Dashiva's rambling to himself, to his sudden, 'nonsensical' reactions to things. I found the scene hilarious. Almost as good as Asmodean in TSR.

 

Am I the only one? Or is it pretty obvious that he was always Forsaken?

 

Also, I doubt that Osan'gar(SC?) originally intended to try his hand at killing Rand the way he did. I think the no-kill was lifted so suddenly, and Osan'gar was so close by, that he had no choice. That's why the attack was so sloppy(besides Osan'gar being useless in a combat situation). He probably originally intended to slowly eat away at Rand's power base by converting key people, and eventually tearing whole chunks from the BT. Why not help people learn, when you're all-but-positive they will serve you in due time?

 

That's my take, anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time I recall Dashiva helping Asha'man with weaves was when Flynn was trying to heal Rand after the attack from Fain. As per the Dark One's orders, Rand was supposed to live, so it's not unreasonable Dashiva would be willing to guide Flynn some under those circumstances.

 

Ummmmmmm, if you go back over the books, I think you'll find that the Dark One has nothing at all to say about Rand. Ba'alzamon and Moridin, on the other hand, both gave orders that Rand was not to be harmed.

 

Shaidar Haran's actions, being as he is The Hand of the Dark, would lead us to believe that the Dark One wants Rand dead. Either that or Shaidar Haran is no more the Dark One's willing vassal than Padan Fain is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time I recall Dashiva helping Asha'man with weaves was when Flynn was trying to heal Rand after the attack from Fain. As per the Dark One's orders, Rand was supposed to live, so it's not unreasonable Dashiva would be willing to guide Flynn some under those circumstances.

 

Ummmmmmm, if you go back over the books, I think you'll find that the Dark One has nothing at all to say about Rand. Ba'alzamon and Moridin, on the other hand, both gave orders that Rand was not to be harmed.

 

Shaidar Haran's actions, being as he is The Hand of the Dark, would lead us to believe that the Dark One wants Rand dead. Either that or Shaidar Haran is no more the Dark One's willing vassal than Padan Fain is.

 

According to Demandred in Lord of Chaos's Prologue, "The first part of the Great Lord’s message was simple. ‘Let the Lord of Chaos rule.’ His words, exact."

 

The "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" order, from the Dark One himself, meant that the Forsaken were not to kill Rand, but instead sow chaos around him. This order is eventually lifted at the end of TPoD once they discover Rand means to cleanse Saidin with the Choedan Khal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, I just read the very beginning to ACoS, (I believe that just after Dumai's Wells is the first we see of Dashiva?) and the revelation that Dashiva is a Forsaken completely throws the scene on its head. Pay close attention to WHEN Dashiva's rambling to himself, to his sudden, 'nonsensical' reactions to things. I found the scene hilarious. Almost as good as Asmodean in TSR.

 

Am I the only one? Or is it pretty obvious that he was always Forsaken?

 

Also, I doubt that Osan'gar(SC?) originally intended to try his hand at killing Rand the way he did. I think the no-kill was lifted so suddenly, and Osan'gar was so close by, that he had no choice. That's why the attack was so sloppy(besides Osan'gar being useless in a combat situation). He probably originally intended to slowly eat away at Rand's power base by converting key people, and eventually tearing whole chunks from the BT. Why not help people learn, when you're all-but-positive they will serve you in due time?

 

That's my take, anyway.

 

Per RJ it was a crime of opportunity.

 

Interview: Jul 19th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)

Week 21 Question

One thing that's always confused me is just why Dashiva/Osan'gar chose to attack Rand (with the turncoat Asha'man) when he did. The last time we saw Rand with Dashiva before that was when they went together (with Flinn, Hopwil and Morr) to confront Cadsuane, and there didn't seem to be any one particular incident that would "set him off."

Robert Jordan

Partly this was guilty conscience working. Even people who don't have a conscience can have a guilty conscience, the sudden conviction—as when Rand came on Dashiva and the others—that somebody knows what they are up to. Add to this that Dashiva was plain getting tired of trailing around after Rand, taking orders. He's one of the Chosen, and the Dark One reclaimed him from death, which is really good, but he's been stuck in a decidedly second-rate body and stuck spying on Rand, fetching and carrying like a servant as he sees it, with hardly even an opportunity to put a spoke in Rand's wheels except in very minor ways. How much better if Rand simply died.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just re-read ACOS again and I'm starting to wonder if RJ originally envisaged Dashiva as Aginor reborn from the beginning. The thing that makes me wonder the most is how much he appears to help the Asha'Man find new talents and skills.

 

I don't know the exact quote (I'm sure someone can find it) but Flynn explains that it was Dashiva who encouraged both his experiments with healing and other Asha'Man to find out what they can do. I just don't see how this is either spreading chaos (as per the "let the lord of chaos rule instruction) or hindering and sabotaging Rand's forces.

 

There are myriad reasons for Aginor to be put as a spy into Rand's forces but why actively try to improve them while you're there? If you just want to stay unseen just stay as "one of the herd" and don't draw attention to yourself.

 

When Dashiva is ultimately unmasked as Aginor reborn it was not only a shock to me but seemed a complete reversal in direction for his character who prior to that point was a bit mad (always staring into space) and strong in the power but nothing like his personality revealed in later books.

 

I wonder if RJ originally had a different Asha'Man in mind for Aginor but changed his mind while writing APOD as this could explain some of the personality changes which appeared to happen to Dashiva between LOC/ACOS and APOD onwards.

 

I have a feeling that the black tower is being used as a dread-lord training ground. Why wouldn't he train some of them?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've just re-read ACOS again and I'm starting to wonder if RJ originally envisaged Dashiva as Aginor reborn from the beginning. The thing that makes me wonder the most is how much he appears to help the Asha'Man find new talents and skills.

It's pretty certain, since he is connected to Aginor blatantly in the very scene where he is introduced.

 

TITLE - Lord of Chaos

PROLOGUE - The First Message

 

Osan’gar tried to swallow, but his mouth was dust. Surely the creature had nothing to do with whatever had been done to him. Myrddraal had powers of a sort, but not that. Yet it knew. He had never liked Halfmen. He had helped make the Trollocs, blending human and animal stockhe was proud of that, of the skill involved, the difficulty – but these occasional throwback offspring made him uneasy at the best of times.

And the bolded bit gives a clue as to why he helped Damer Flinn reason out proper Healing:

 

TITLE - A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 36 - Blades

 

"I hope nobody minds if I talk," he said, beginning to move callused hands above Rand’s side. "Talking seems to help a mite." He squinted, focusing on the injuries, and his fingers writhed slowly. Very much as though he was weaving threads, Min realized. His tone was almost absent, only part of his mind on the words. "It was Healing made me go to the Black Tower, you might say. I was a soldier, till I took a lance in my thigh; couldn’t grip a saddle proper after that, or even walk far. That was the fifteenth wound I took in near forty years in the Queen’s Guards. Fifteen that counted, anyway; it don’t if you can walk or ride, after. I seen a lot of friends die in them forty years. So I went, and the M’Hael taught me Healing. And other things. A rough sort of Healing; I was Healed by an Aes Sedai once - oh, nigh on thirty years back now - and this hurts, compared to that. Works as well, though. Then one day, Dashiva here - pardon; Asha’man Dashiva - says he wonders why it’s all the same, no matter if a man’s got a broke leg or a cold, and we got to talking, and... Well, he’s got no feel for it, himself, but me, seems I got the knack you might say. The Talent. So I started thinking, what if I...? There. Best I can do."

Aginor likes to show off his superior intellect and knowledge at any given opportunity. He even risked exposure to do it with Rand:

 

TITLE - The Path of Daggers

CHAPTER: 24 - A Time for Iron

 

it was something of a shock when Dashiva awkwardly booted his slab-sided mount ahead of the rest. That plain face, so often vague or bemused with the fellow’s own thoughts, was fixed in a worried frown. It was more than something of a shock when he seized saidin as soon as he reached Rand and wove a barrier around them against eavesdropping. Lews Therin did not waste breath – if a disembodied voice had breath – on mutters about killing; he lurched for the Source snarling wordlessly, tried to claw the Power away from Rand. And just as abruptly fell silent and vanished.

 

"There’s something askew with saidin here, something amiss," Dashiva said, sounding not at all vague. In fact, he sounded... precise. And testy. A teacher lecturing a particularly dense pupil. He even stabbed a finger at Rand. "I don’t know what it is. Nothing can twist saidin, and if it could be twisted, we’d have felt it back in the mountains. Well, there was something there, yesterday, but so small... I feel it clearly here, though. Saidin is... eager. I know; I know. Saidin is not alive. But it... pulses, here. It is difficult to control."

 

Rand forced his hand to loosen its grip on the Dragon Scepter. He had always been sure Dashiva was nearly as mad as Lews Therin himself. Usually the man maintained a better hold on himself, though, however precariously. "I’ve been channeling longer than you, Dashiva. You’re just feeling the taint more." He could not soften his tone. Light, he could not go mad yet, and neither could they! "Get to your place. We’ll be moving soon." The scouts had to return soon. Even in this flatter country, even limited to no further than they could see, ten miles would not take long to cover, Traveling.

 

Dashiva made no move to obey. Instead, he opened his mouth angrily, then snapped it shut. Shaking visibly, he drew a deep breath. "I am well aware how long you have channeled," he said in an icy, almost contemptuous voice, "but surely even you can feel it. Feel, man! I don’t like ‘strange’ applied to saidin, and I don’t want to die or... or be burned out because you’re blind! Look at my ward! Look at it!"

 

Rand stared. Dashiva pushing himself forward was peculiar enough, but Dashiva in a temper? And then he did look at the ward. Really look. The flows should have been as steady as the threads in tight-woven canvas. They vibrated. The ward stood solid as it should be, but the individual threads of the Power shimmered with faint movement. Morr had said saidin was strange near Ebou Dar, and for a hundred miles around. They were closer than a hundred miles, now.

 

Rand made himself feel saidin. He was always aware of the Power – anything else meant death or worse – yet he had become used to the struggle. He fought for life, but the fight had become as natural as life. The struggle was life. He made himself feel that battle, his life. Cold to make stone shatter into dust. Fire to make stone flash to vapor. Filth to make a rotten cesspit smell a garden in full flower. And... a pulsing, like something quivering in his fist. This was not the sort of throbbing he had felt in Shadar Logoth, when the taint on saidin had resonated with the evil of that place, and saidin had pulsed with it. The vileness was strong, but steady here. It was saidin itself that seemed full of currents and surges. Eager, Dashiva called it, and Rand could see why.

 

Down the slope, behind Flinn, Morr scrubbed a hand through his hair and looked around uneasily. Flinn alternated shifting on his saddle and easing his sword in its scabbard. Narishma, watching the sky for flying creatures, blinked too often. A muscle twitched in Adley’s cheek. Every one of them displayed some sign of nervousness, and little wonder. Relief welled up in Rand. Not madness after all.

 

Dashiva smiled, a twisted self-satisfied smile. "I cannot believe you didn’t notice before." There was very close to a sneer in his voice. "You’ve been holding saidin practically day and night since we began this mad expedition. This is a simple ward, but it did not want to form, then it snapped together like pulling out of my hands."

 

The silver-blue slash of a gateway rotated open atop one of the bare hills, half a mile to the west, and a Soldier pulled his horse through and mounted hurriedly, returning from the scout. Even at a distance, Rand could make out the faint shimmer of the weaves surrounding the gateway before they vanished. The rider had not reached the bottom of the hill before another gateway opened on the crest, and then a third, a fourth, more, one after another, almost as fast as the preceding man could get out of the way.

 

"But it did form," Rand said. So had the scouts’ gateways. "If saidin is hard to control, it’s always hard, and it still does what you want." But why more difficult here? A question for another time. Light, he wished Herid Fel were still alive; the old philosopher might have had an answer. "Get back with the others, Dashiva," he ordered, but the man stared at him in astonishment, and he had to repeat himself before the fellow let the ward vanish, jerked his horse around without a salute and thumped the animal back down the slope with his heels.

And of course, why wouldn't Dashiva want someone around with the capability to Heal him if he gets injured?

Edited by Terez

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's pretty certain, since he is connected to Aginor blatantly in the very scene where he is introduced.

 

I don't think the OP was questioning whether Aginor = Osan'gar, but rather if Dashiva was always intended to be Osang'ar/Aginor.

 

That being said, I'm pretty sure it was intentional. Dashiva was supposed to be a farmer, yet he hated outdoorsy activities, and he also showed knowledge of the Old Tongue that he claimed to have read from a book. There's probably other little clues sprinkled in that I can't think of off the top of my head, but I think it was always intended that the character of Dashiva was in fact, Osan'gar in disguise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Osan'gar also had a farmer's face in his first scene. It would just be silly for RJ to not have that planned from the beginning, since he had already introduced Osan'gar, and from the first scene obviously intended to put them somewhere. Aran'gar was revealed pretty early on to the reader (in LOC), but he saved the Osan'gar hints mostly for ACOS, and didn't really make them blatant until TPOD. (By the way, the scene where Osan'gar reveals himself to the reader is one of the lamest RJ ever wrote. Not the whole scene, but that line about 'all those months he had been posing as Corlan Dashiva' or whatever it was. I was like, really? I mean, we already knew, but he could have done better, and usually did.) But yeah, the whole premise for the idea was the supposedly OOC behavior which actually has a logical explanation.

 

Incidentally, that's actually a character trait I share with Aginor. :myrddraal:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it was intended from the beginning. IIRC, the first time we see Dashiva is when Rand randomly picks him from the crowd of Asha'man to come with him and Taim's shocked and stumbles for a second that this is the guy he's chosen. Out of the group of dozens, Rand points at the one Forsaken in the crowd and that threw Taim for a loop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only time I recall Dashiva helping Asha'man with weaves was when Flynn was trying to heal Rand after the attack from Fain. As per the Dark One's orders, Rand was supposed to live, so it's not unreasonable Dashiva would be willing to guide Flynn some under those circumstances.

 

Ummmmmmm, if you go back over the books, I think you'll find that the Dark One has nothing at all to say about Rand. Ba'alzamon and Moridin, on the other hand, both gave orders that Rand was not to be harmed.

 

Shaidar Haran's actions, being as he is The Hand of the Dark, would lead us to believe that the Dark One wants Rand dead. Either that or Shaidar Haran is no more the Dark One's willing vassal than Padan Fain is.

 

Osan'Gar would also have to pay heed to Moridin who most definitely want Rand alive for The Last Battle. So even if Shaidar Haran/Dark One wanted Rand dead, it would be the ultimate case of being caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.

 

You'd have to think Osan'gar would would burn both ends of the candle as long as he could to find a way out that suited him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...