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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

If you could cut/trim from books 7-10...?


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What's the point of having Fel's help without saying what the help is?

 

While we don't get the riddle we know what Fel's help was. He confirmed Rand was on the right track, said the riddle had "sound principles, in both high philosophy and natural philosophy.", and gave him books to figure out the problem. Again we see rand studying and are then told what the plan was while it was being cleansed. Agree to disagree but once can hardly say it came out of nowhere. There is far more groundwork involved then the scenario you present above.

Edited by Suttree
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But still, those principles aren't mentioned anymore than the riddle is. It's never once mentioned what Rand is studying. The plan for how to cleanse saidin happens entirely offscreen and then this overly complex result shows up out of nowhere.

 

It was completely unsatisfying storytelling, particularly in contrast to how much detailed development went into the most of the other plotlines throughout the series.

 

Would Rand and Asmodean levelling mountains have made sense if the super-angreal hadn't been referenced previously? If there had only been a couple of vague mentions of some kind of magic horn, would the Heroes showing up to fight off the Seanchan not been considered completely out of the blue? This is what the cleansing of the Source was.

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Would Rand and Asmodean levelling mountains have made sense if the super-angreal hadn't been referenced previously? If there had only been a couple of vague mentions of some kind of magic horn, would the Heroes showing up to fight off the Seanchan not been considered completely out of the blue? This is what the cleansing of the Source was.

 

The problem is none of your examples fit. Just because the exact specifics weren't spelled out doesn't mean it hasn't been mentioned. There was more than enough build up for it.

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Fixing the weather was paramount, so the bowl of the winds was pretty much required. Ditto with Rand against the Seanchan.

 

I would have to say Elayne's ascension was a little bloated at times. It is hers by right, so I don't why it had to be dragged out, and none of the Andoran nobles are particularly interesting. She could have gotten the throne really fast, and the Caemlyn Black Ajah storyline would still be intact.

 

I really enjoyed the Mat and Tuon parts in CoT. In fact it might be my favorite relationship in the whole series. (right after Rand and Aviendha even though it doesnt hardly exist lately)

 

Faile's point of views weren't necessary IMO. In the end during the rescue, it doesn't matter who the Brotherless were and it doesn't matter that Galina was trying to kill them. They were all still rescued.

 

I would like to point out that most of these are opinions based upon multiple re-reads. I did not think any of this during my first read of the books.

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Cut nothing. The Shaido.... Fail was immature and petulant until the shaido matured her. Perrin refused to admit that he was a leader until the Shaido. He was fumbling and self-contious and, at least to some extent, in awe of Aes Sedai, until the Shaido. That was VERY important. Much the same with Elaine, and even MORE so with Egwene. If there wasn't something to explain there maturation, it would have mad NO sense at all.

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Having just suffered through a re-read of the first few chapters of PoD, I definitely say to get rid of the whole Bowl of the Winds. I also wouldn't mind if the Kin and the Sea Folk were left out. Ugh! Now I can't wait to read about Perrin while Faile is captured :)

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Having just suffered through a re-read of the first few chapters of PoD, I definitely say to get rid of the whole Bowl of the Winds. I also wouldn't mind if the Kin and the Sea Folk were left out. Ugh! Now I can't wait to read about Perrin while Faile is captured :)

 

Yeah, I'm just not feeling the whole Bowl/Kin/Sea Folk plot line in these books. I get it that they had to do *something* to fix the weather. I also get the whole Sea Folk/weather plot link. It just didn't work for me and kind of dragged on. It was an ok plot idea, it just seemed to lack a "hook" of some sort imo.

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Mat is the only thing that makes the whole Bowl of the Winds arc bearable...good thing he was there. Also, shouldn't Elayne be doing something about Andor rather than galavanting about Ebou Dar?

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Would Rand and Asmodean levelling mountains have made sense if the super-angreal hadn't been referenced previously? If there had only been a couple of vague mentions of some kind of magic horn, would the Heroes showing up to fight off the Seanchan not been considered completely out of the blue? This is what the cleansing of the Source was.

 

The problem is none of your examples fit. Just because the exact specifics weren't spelled out doesn't mean it hasn't been mentioned. There was more than enough build up for it.

 

I have to agree with Suttree. We saw Rand considering the problem and going through multiple steps to puzzle it out. It was satisfying to see what he concluded by the actions he took, and even then Jordan's lack of complete explanation leaves plenty for fans to discuss and figure out themselves from the information given (and we were given enough to do so). The Cleansing wouldn't have been nearly as interesting if we already knew what was going to happen. I appreciate it when the author doesn't feel the need to spell out every detail along the way; it's nice to have some questions because you can't see inside the character's mind and then to have that little "ahah" epiphany when you see what the character was thinking about manifested in action. Jordan's take on this whole situation was very similar to the way Frank Herbert dealt with these things in his Dune series.

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One of the things I've always kinda thought we coulda done without was the repeated descriptions of dresses. I mean, do we really care what Elayne is wearing at this particular moment in time? No, not really. Just GET ON WITH IT, already. If the descriptions of clothes had been cut, or at least trimmed down, I don't even know how much that would cut out of the length of the series.

 

Personally, tho, I wouldn't cut any of the various plotlines, cus I enjoyed them all. I realize I'm probably an oddity in that, but that's ok. I like all the books, but I did and do get a bit tired of Perrin searching for Faile. I don't get tired of Faile with the Shaido tho. So yeah, personally, I don't think any of that should have been cut or trimmed.

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Mat is the only thing that makes the whole Bowl of the Winds arc bearable...good thing he was there. Also, shouldn't Elayne be doing something about Andor rather than galavanting about Ebou Dar?

 

Ya, that always bugged me too. There was her whole explanation about how getting the bowl was an important job and all that, but I fail to see what she brought to the table that Random Aes Sedai #37 couldn't have done just as well. She was in a unique position to help out in Andor and her talents were better spent heading there where she belonged as opposed to wandering aimlessly through a city that she knew nothing about.

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Mat is the only thing that makes the whole Bowl of the Winds arc bearable...good thing he was there. Also, shouldn't Elayne be doing something about Andor rather than galavanting about Ebou Dar?

 

Ya, that always bugged me too. There was her whole explanation about how getting the bowl was an important job and all that, but I fail to see what she brought to the table that Random Aes Sedai #37 couldn't have done just as well. She was in a unique position to help out in Andor and her talents were better spent heading there where she belonged as opposed to wandering aimlessly through a city that she knew nothing about.

 

She was the one that did the "need" search to find the Bowl originally with Nyn(and was correct about the building where as Nyn had it wrong). In addition for an AS she had by far the most skill with weather. She put the world's needs ahead of her political aspirations which should be lauded. Although it is worth mentioning had she not helped find the Bowl Andor wouldn't have lasted that long anyways.

Edited by Suttree
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RJ melded his foreshadowing and personalities well throughout. I think all of the small details added realism and harbored resentment it seems. But I'm sure you could do better..

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My main issue with the Bowl of the Winds plot line was it ultimately was a failure. Yes, they fixed the weather but doing so didn't do a thing for them in the long run because the Dark One caused the issue and he can still reach the world enough to mess with it and we see the result - the weather is so busted right now that nothing can grow unless Rand is nearby, basically, so it was a patch job that didn't hold. I can see the point in telling the story (and there are a lot of moments along the way that I like), but it mostly has to do with getting Mat into a place where he can run afoul of the Seanchan.

 

I can't think of many things you can pull from those four books without affecting something in books that are better liked in a noticeable fashion. I just think he probably could have told the story without so much arm crossing, dress descriptions, bathing and so forth, and that he probably could have picked a more direct way of getting us from point A to point B.

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My main issue with the Bowl of the Winds plot line was it ultimately was a failure. Yes, they fixed the weather but doing so didn't do a thing for them in the long run because the Dark One caused the issue and he can still reach the world enough to mess with it and we see the result - the weather is so busted right now that nothing can grow unless Rand is nearby, basically, so it was a patch job that didn't hold. I can see the point in telling the story (and there are a lot of moments along the way that I like), but it mostly has to do with getting Mat into a place where he can run afoul of the Seanchan.

 

Well there is a fair amount of debate on this topic. Most agree the food not growing is a result of Dark Rand/Fisher King parellels, not the DO.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,

for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.

 

Question

How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

Brandon Sanderson

We've heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief—many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the king was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.

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true. I had forgotten that little tidbit. However, it still illustrates the point that the Bowl of Winds was an utter failure in the long term. Things don't grow and the weather is all kinds of messed up. :)

 

In any case, the books in question are far easier to bear now (though I always liked 7 on its own merits) that we have the context of what happens after. I was more than a little frustrated by 8 and 10 in particular when they first were released, but it's easier to see that they do, in fact, have a place in the greater scheme of things now. When they first came out, my reaction was literally "I just paid 20 bucks for that?" I nearly threw in the towel after 10. I've read each about 20 times in the intervening years and I'm not as irritated by them any more.

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I, for one, appreciated the approach RJ took to Rand's actions concerning the cleansing. That the elaborate cleansing 'sort of' came out of nowhere and involved a bunch of stuff that wasn't exactly all the clear was very intriguing to me. I mean Rand's the only one who puzzled this out, why should anyone else completely see it coming, including us the readers. I remember rereading the end of 9 immediately, like 10 times in a row, just working it all out...really brilliant, I thought anyways.

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