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gloweye

Asmodean's Inprisonment

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We all know all there is to know about the conditions. And for those who dont...

Basically, when Rand managed to shields him after their battle for the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean, Lanfear appears, and Congratulates him for him win. She had a plan for quite a while to have Asmodean teach him in the power, and why shouldn't that be done under Rand's complete control? She helps him by shielding Asmodean partially, allowing him only a trickle of Saidin at a time. This is the only time in the series we've seen such a shield. Due to its nature, she has to tie it off.

 

Now comes the big deal. why didn't he dissolve it? all the Forsaken know how to. Even Nyneave finds the "soft spots" once when she is shielded, even though I forgot which occasion that was(I thought Falion and Ispan, but im not sure). Rand lets him out of his sight often and long enough for him to untie the shield and weave a gateway. It doesn't take that long. When Rand was shielded at the start of the battle of Dumai's wells, he does it quite fast, fast enough for him to hope for completion "Before the others [sisters] come back and help hold it up"

 

Lanfear gives us a official explanation when she weaves the shield. Asmodean would be unable to bring up the patience and stand the pain it takes to undo her weave.

 

This, however, doesn't make the slightest sense. how could someone unable of a few minutes patience become one of the top 13 Forsaken? of someone unable to bite a bit of pain in exchange for his freedom?

 

Her says he threw his hope with Rand, as being seen as a traitor by the other Forsaken and the DO. however, what stops him from re-swearing his Oaths and regaining the filter for saidin? when somewhere around Cairhien, Rand even remaks that "This is still the same man as who gave his soul to the Shadow"

 

Other people's thoughts please. I wont take plain stupidity as a good excuse for this.

 

Edit: Typo's. sorry.

Edited by Gaidar

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My thoughts on the subject....

 

I always wondered about this myself. I guess I just thought that only certain channellers had the strength to be able to do this. I think that Asmodean is a lower-tier Forsaken power wise(an assumption, since his level is never strictly stated). Nynaeve is extremely powerful, and Rand is Rand. Perhaps Asmodean knows how, but with the shield, he might not be able to unknot the shield.

 

This is all speculation on my part however, so who knows.

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I think the reason was that Rand had cut the DO's taint filters (black 'hoses') that filter the taint from Saidin. This meant that:

1) He was no longer immune to going insane,

2) Other Forsaken would no longer see him as being in the Dark One's favor, and likely think that he had returned to the Light. This is the most compelling reason to stick around with Rand.

 

Afterall, would you be willing to go to Shayol Ghul and beg the DO for a new 'filter' for Saidin if you were in his shoes?

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I have a few thoughts on Asmo, i am probably wrong but will share them anyway.

 

First off, i think the reason he didnt try to escape in the beginning was fear. Fear of Rand catching him, fear of the other forsaken and mostly fear of Lanfear. If i remember correctly she did threaten to kill him if he didnt do what she wanted.

 

The second thing is also why i think the DO cant bring Asmo back (unless he was balefired, which hasnt been proven yet). I believe that after a bit he saw hope and was helping Rand because he wanted to. I believe the DO cant bring him back because his soul no longer belongs to him. Asmo always seemed to be the least dedicated of the Forsaken to me and i think that he believed that by helping Rand he could return to the light.

 

If i am totally wrong on this Luckers can come beat me with a stick.

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I have a few thoughts on Asmo, i am probably wrong but will share them anyway.

 

First off, i think the reason he didnt try to escape in the beginning was fear. Fear of Rand catching him, fear of the other forsaken and mostly fear of Lanfear. If i remember correctly she did threaten to kill him if he didnt do what she wanted.

 

The second thing is also why i think the DO cant bring Asmo back (unless he was balefired, which hasnt been proven yet). I believe that after a bit he saw hope and was helping Rand because he wanted to. I believe the DO cant bring him back because his soul no longer belongs to him. Asmo always seemed to be the least dedicated of the Forsaken to me and i think that he believed that by helping Rand he could return to the light.

 

If i am totally wrong on this Luckers can come beat me with a stick.

 

That's a great theory, but RJ debunked it. He said that Asmodean couldn't be brought back by the Dark One because of "how he was killed, and where he was killed. Not either one, but both together." If it was due to Asmo turning to the Light, neither place nor means of death would have been the cause.

 

Sadly, we don't know what he meant by that, and it probably wasn't in the notes either, since Brandon said he didn't know how Asmodean died, but he'd always imagined it as balefire. Thing is though, balefire would prevent Asmo's resurrection regardless of where in the world he got hit. It sounds like RJ had something planned out that we'll never get to see, even with the WoT being finished. :sad:

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Asmo was a coward. He was faced with a choice of break out of the shield - which, so we are told, hurts - or simply wait for it to dissipate (Lanfear said it would dissolve in time, remember). Now, given the choice between hurting yourself for freedom now, or waiting a couple of months, why not wait? As for going back to the Shadow, that assumes that Shai'tan would want him, would give him a chance to explain. "Hey, boss, sorry about my link to you being broken, don't listen to Lanfear, i didn't turn traitor, still totally on your side, big guy. See, the thing is, I'd quite like to reswear, get my link back and... hey, why are you skinning me? Dude, not cool." Asmo had nowhere to run. The others have no reason to help him, no reason not to kill him on sight, and Shai'tan has no reason to listen to him. He doesn't like Rand. He is, in his heart of hearts, still not a fan of the Light side - he wants that immortality. Rand represented a chance of survival, a slim chance, but one he would hang onto until he could manoeuvre his way back into his master's good graces. (I know I'm not Luckers (or am I?) but safwd, I think I might be entitled to beat you with a stick now.)

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It's important to note that Rand was shielded by modern aes sedai. Of course he could break a knotted shield. A knot is a knot. Picture the knot he used to secure callandor. I would imagine Langeaf took extra precautions, having known Asmo for a while, to create a knot sufficiently intricate that it would take Asmo hundreds of hours to unknot. Imagine untying headphones after they've been in your pocket. Now multiply that by 1,000 and hit yourself in the head with a rubber mallet after every unknotting

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I'm fairly certain Asmodean was one of the strongest of the Forsaken in raw power. I'm not sure how particularly skilled he was at weaving, though. He seemed more like a musical genius, an eccentric.

 

I assume he would be seen as a traitor for helping Rand at all. Better to die immediately than to help your god's eternal enemy, right? He was too much of a coward to make that choice.

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It's easy enough to justify how it works, but yah, doesn't make sense as written. Add a compulsion to it if it's messed with or something for example. Granted if he really wanted it off, he just had to visit a stedding :)

 

We don't know much about Asmodean the Forsaken, it's pretty much all speculation.

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When Rand beat Asmo, he severed the black cords we've seen around the male Forsaken that protect them from the taint. Plus, if he went back to the DO after teaching Rand, he would be in for a very unpleasant future of torture and badness. Everyone believed that Asmo switched sides on his own (except Lanfear, obviously). Moggy said when she went to the Pit of Doom to get mindtrapped that the DO wasn't omniscient and could be wrong. Asmo knew that he was completely tied to Rand now. His explanation was the story about the man dangling from the cliff grabbing onto the branch that he knew couldn't hold his weight but tried anyway. Rand succeeding was the only way Asmo could succeed now that everyone believed him turned back.

 

It could also have been a more powerful shield, like many have said. In Crown of Swords, when Nyn and Elayne go to the Knitting Circle for the first time, one of the Kin place a shield on Nyn that flexed instead of breaking. Nyn said that she should have been able to easily break it due to her strength compared to the other woman's but it was just a particularly strong shield. It's feasible that the Forsaken, being much more knowledgeable about most weavings, would know how to make something similar that could be tied off.

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It could be a matter of the shield itself. Maybe there are no hard points once it's tied off because it's not like a regular shield stopping you from reaching the Source. It's more like a filter that only lets so much of the Power through. Now, the counter argument to that would be why not just hit people with these kinds of shields and only allow the slightest bit of the Power, instead of completely shielding them but giving them the opportunity to break the shield. But I think this was a uniquely AoL weave, Liandrin certainly seemed shocked when hit with this type of shield, so it's probably not known amongst regular Third Agers.

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That's a great theory, but RJ debunked it. He said that Asmodean couldn't be brought back by the Dark One because of "how he was killed, and where he was killed. Not either one, but both together." If it was due to Asmo turning to the Light, neither place nor means of death would have been the cause.

 

Sadly, we don't know what he meant by that, and it probably wasn't in the notes either, since Brandon said he didn't know how Asmodean died, but he'd always imagined it as balefire. Thing is though, balefire would prevent Asmo's resurrection regardless of where in the world he got hit. It sounds like RJ had something planned out that we'll never get to see, even with the WoT being finished. :sad:

 

I've started to wonder if he was killed within a skimming portal similar to the one the gholam was pushed into which could explain why his soul disappeared as it was outside of time. What does anyone else think?

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That's a great theory, but RJ debunked it. He said that Asmodean couldn't be brought back by the Dark One because of "how he was killed, and where he was killed. Not either one, but both together." If it was due to Asmo turning to the Light, neither place nor means of death would have been the cause.

 

Sadly, we don't know what he meant by that, and it probably wasn't in the notes either, since Brandon said he didn't know how Asmodean died, but he'd always imagined it as balefire. Thing is though, balefire would prevent Asmo's resurrection regardless of where in the world he got hit. It sounds like RJ had something planned out that we'll never get to see, even with the WoT being finished. :sad:

 

I've started to wonder if he was killed within a skimming portal similar to the one the gholam was pushed into which could explain why his soul disappeared as it was outside of time. What does anyone else think?

soul independent of time or space

also doesn't cover location, you could do that anywhere. might as well be balefire in that case.

Edited by Testy al'Carr

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soul independent of time or space

also doesn't cover location, you could do that anywhere. might as well be balefire in that case.

 

Never heard the theory that Asmodean could have been boot dropped into the blackness of a Skimming portal. I don't know if it's likely, but it would probably prevent transmigration.

 

It seems logical that the Skimming location is out of bounds for the Dark One. Probably the Ways as well. Maybe even if someone who physically enters Tel'aran'rhiod and dies, too. Possibly Shadar Logoth. IIRC, it didn't have a reflection in T'A'R, and it's also possible that the evil of Shadar Logoth, which we know is counter to that of the Dark One, would prevent him from transmigrating a soul that died there.

 

I think it would cover the location requirement, since the actual location inside the Skimming portal has nothing to do with the physical location where the gateway is made. If the DO can't touch someone inside the Skimming space, you could probably theoretically open a Skimming gateway directly outside of Shayol Ghul and the DO couldn't do anything about it, since like you said, it's outside of normal time/space. That's all speculation, though.

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Have we ever seen Graendal stepping into or out of T'a'r in the flesh? Asmo steps into the room looking for wine, and poof, he's in T'a'r, and Graendal simply undoes him, killing him. Fits place and manner. Then there's the skimming blackness, and the vacuoles, and Finnland as the only things we are aware of that can fit the place. Balefire I think the argument was that his words never would have hung in the air. We know she always poked about looking for the treasure troves of Ter'angreal and angreal and items the other dead forsaken had of the AOL soon after their demise. We know Egwene simply made her tent area just like the world of dreams and walked through. I guess we will never really know, but that kind of secret I'm sure he had to share with Harriet.

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That's a great theory, but RJ debunked it. He said that Asmodean couldn't be brought back by the Dark One because of "how he was killed, and where he was killed. Not either one, but both together." If it was due to Asmo turning to the Light, neither place nor means of death would have been the cause.

 

Sadly, we don't know what he meant by that, and it probably wasn't in the notes either, since Brandon said he didn't know how Asmodean died, but he'd always imagined it as balefire. Thing is though, balefire would prevent Asmo's resurrection regardless of where in the world he got hit. It sounds like RJ had something planned out that we'll never get to see, even with the WoT being finished. :sad:

 

I've started to wonder if he was killed within a skimming portal similar to the one the gholam was pushed into which could explain why his soul disappeared as it was outside of time. What does anyone else think?

A theory that has been put forward before, but is somewhat unlikely. Firstly, he would still have been only partially inside the Gateway when he died. Secondly, we have no reason to believe that Skimming space is beyond Shai'tan's reach. Thirdly, it also adds an unnecassary complication. Balefires fits the description of his death so well, I don't really think any further explanation is required.

 

Now, places beyond Shai'tan's reach. Look at the four Chosen who died and came back. Where did they die? Aginor and Balthamel died at the Eye of the World (which seems to sit outside of normal space somewhat, what with the way there changing, and it supposedly only being possible to get there once). Ishamael is a little harder - he and Rand fought in T'a'r, but we certainly saw the corpse in the real world. It is quite possible that he died in T'a'r and came back - thus, again, not the real world. Lanfear died while in Finnland - you may sense a pattern emerging here. Not one Chosen has come back from a "real world" death. If anything, the evidence suggests that He could grab someone from Skimming space, but maybe not the Caemlyn palace. People look for elaborate answers to the "where" part of RJ's how and where comment but I don't really think it's necessary. None of the places suggested are shown to be beyond Shai'tan's reach, and in point of fact every resurrection we have seen is from someone who did not die in the real world. I see no reason to believe he didn't die in Caemlyn - it fits the where as well as anything, and we do at least know he was there - it requires no conjecture to put him in the palace, it does to get him out of it.

 

 

Then there's the skimming blackness, and the vacuoles, and Finnland as the only things we are aware of that can fit the place.
Quite the reverse, in fact. Those places in no way fit the "where" requirement, not nearly as well as the real world does.
Balefire I think the argument was that his words never would have hung in the air.
Again, not so, Be'lal's words hung in the air when he was balefired. The descriptions match very well.

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She couldn't have just thrown him off a skimming platform anyway, he is a channeler and thus can make his own, and doesn't need to be able to access the one power at the time to do it. (it is related to the power but never uses it). Now being killed on the platform is possible, but I'm not sure why she would.

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How he died- Probably Balefire. Easy answer and it fits.

 

Where he died- Under the light.

 

Thats right Mr Ares, i am not letting it die just yet (even if i am probably wrong) so put the stick away.

 

Perhaps the where RJ was talking about was not the where of his body, but the where of his soul.

 

That seems like a way RJ would have messed with us.

 

Like i said, i am probably way wrong on this. Theory is based off of how i saw Asmo and not everyone sees him that way. I saw Asmo as the least power hungry of the forsaken.

History of the forsaken state that he went to the DO in order to get immortality so that he would have the time to accomplish his goal of be a master in music.

He was never a field general for the shadow, more of a government official and of all the forsaken he treated those under him the least crappy.

Does this make him a swell guy, no, but swell compared to the rest.

Plus, i think Asmo was fairly smart. Unlike the other morons (except Ishy who just doesnt care) i believe he figured out that if the DO wins its over. No immortal glory, no anything but destruction.

Thus Rand gave him another option and after some time he wasnt helping him because he had to but because he wanted to. And by the end he had given in to the light and been accepted, thus being out of bounds for the DO.

 

Again, my completely made up fantasy of what could have happened to Asmo, but i like it.

 

Fine, here is the stick back. Not the face.

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I'm too lazy to look it up, but isn't there a scene where Asmo thinks that Rand could possibly succeed? I mean, assuming he's the coward we're led to believe he is, that would just make him want to stick with Rand even more.

 

This is similar to the Lanfear trap debate. People suggest they (Asmo and Lanfear) could never change sides because of some quote about them still being the same people. But the people they are, are not darkfriends because of their genetic makeup, they have motivations that got them there and the same motivations could turn them back.

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I'm too lazy to look it up, but isn't there a scene where Asmo thinks that Rand could possibly succeed? I mean, assuming he's the coward we're led to believe he is, that would just make him want to stick with Rand even more.

 

This is similar to the Lanfear trap debate. People suggest they (Asmo and Lanfear) could never change sides because of some quote about them still being the same people. But the people they are, are not darkfriends because of their genetic makeup, they have motivations that got them there and the same motivations could turn them back.

 

I remember this one...

 

I once saw a man hanging from a cliff," he said slowly. "The brink was crumbling beneath his fingers, and the only thing near enough to grasp was a tuft of grass, a few long blades with roots barely clinging to the rock. The only chance he had of climbing back up on the cliff. So he grabbed it." His abrupt chuckle held no mirth. "He had to know it would pull free."

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