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Randfan75

Rand is probably...

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Alright, cleared out the 'trolling' personal attacks. Next person who makes a comment to that effect gets a temp ban.

 

On the subject, I disagree with it when talking about early Rand, ironically--given as far as I can tell that's who your talking about Hop-Robin. I mean sure, he gets three ladies, but he also gets locked in a chest, has terrible never-healing wounds, gets made a fool of numerous times and so forth. This is not a Marty Sue to my mind--for it to be the author must be compromising other characters for him, and RJ never did that.

 

As of TofM though, where Rand sweeps away an army with a single sweep of his lazerbeam eyes whilst other characters wax lyrical about his sheer awesomosity in an orgy of florid prose....

 

Yeah, I can see what the OP is talking about.

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As of TofM though, where Rand sweeps away an army with a single sweep of his lazerbeam eyes whilst other characters wax lyrical about his sheer awesomosity in an orgy of florid prose....

 

 

Haven't gotten to that point yet, myself. (again just on chapter 15 of book 4) Hop you might be right - after 10 more books of this I may, too, start to roll my eyes over the basis of Rand. To this point - I agree with your comment on :perrin: , he is my favorite.

 

Only one that I sometimes cannot stand at this point is Egwene :tongue: and that's only recently. She is getting far to full of herself.

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As for having a mission and so on, that I don't have a problem with, seeing as its not always that great writing about a completely uneventful life. However, I think things should be taken in moderation. What is the point of there being armies and generals and nations when one person can just blow them up with a flick of his finger? Taking these books as an example other characters also have destinies and so on, and I found myself enjoying Perrin's narratives, for an example. As to how I'd want the character written, that's hard to say, I guess I'd find him more interesting if he, let's say, was not so physically skilled or something like that. It does feel really unnecessary that a magician with godlike powers is a grand master swordsman. That's what comes to mind on a whim.

 

Just wanted to apologize for the assumption earlier Hop...welcome to DM.

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Alright, cleared out the 'trolling' personal attacks. Next person who makes a comment to that effect gets a temp ban.

 

On the subject, I disagree with it when talking about early Rand, ironically--given as far as I can tell that's who your talking about Hop-Robin. I mean sure, he gets three ladies, but he also gets locked in a chest, has terrible never-healing wounds, gets made a fool of numerous times and so forth. This is not a Marty Sue to my mind--for it to be the author must be compromising other characters for him, and RJ never did that.

 

As of TofM though, where Rand sweeps away an army with a single sweep of his lazerbeam eyes whilst other characters wax lyrical about his sheer awesomosity in an orgy of florid prose....

 

Yeah, I can see what the OP is talking about.

 

 

Don't forget Rand still has to face the DO, who is basically a god, so, I guess Rand having "godlike" powers had to happen sooner or later.

As for the rest, yeah I agree, Rands had it hard since basically book 1, with non healing wounds, getting locked in a box, losing a hand ect. That he gets a little extra action in the lady departments may be his just reward.

And he still has to die in the end.

The man deserves a bit of slack.

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Honestly, its not his powers that get to me--we were warned by Nicola that the Dragon would be doing some impossible things--its more the depiction. Both the prose, and the way he (and others) think about himself.

 

In TofM he reminds me disturbingly of Richard Rahl--more someones concept of the perfect man, than a depiction of a perfect man.

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If you accept the premise -- that he's the Dragon Reborn and the hero of prophesy -- then it's not really a stretch to believe that three powerful women would want to have him.

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Seems my post got deleted... so...

 

 

I found that Rand's impending madness was an interesting plot device. He's been able to hold it at bay, but we never know quite how well he's able to do so. From his own thoughts he seems quite sane, but then... I'll stop there for fear of spoilers, but... yeah.

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Honestly, its not his powers that get to me--we were warned by Nicola that the Dragon would be doing some impossible things--its more the depiction. Both the prose, and the way he (and others) think about himself.

 

In TofM he reminds me disturbingly of Richard Rahl--more someones concept of the perfect man, than a depiction of a perfect man.

 

 

Yeah I can see where your coming from with the whole new zen Rand thing, when he goes into mega metaphor mode and starts talking about avalanches and stuff, really annoyed me.(Won't criticise BS to much I've aired my views on him in another thread)

Don't know about Richard Rahl, I tried reading Terry Goodkind and couldn't get into it.

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losing a hand ect.

 

keep the spoilers to a min. please!!! :sad:

 

Sorry won't happen again, although maybe it did in my last post if so, sorry x2

 

This isn't a spoiler free area. I understand the request but just a heads up to Noah you are probably going to stumble across more than you want to know if you spend a lot of time here. Structured discussion goes up to certain books only and may be a bit more safe.

Edited by Suttree

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I dissagree with the op. Rand is powerful indeed but he can also fail at any given time or die at anytime. He is not godlike at all. spoilers ahead if you haven't read the whole series. Look at his failures with the Seanchen and Semirhage.

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Rand a Marty Stu? That really depends on how you define Marty Stu. He's incredibly powerful, but spends most of the series in situations where that power really doesn't help him as much as you might think...

 

He can win nearly any battle toe-to-toe, but ends up facing Darkfriends that he can't tell apart from innocents and thus can't fight. He had the power to destroy the Seanchan with the Choedan Kal, but he needs them. Annihilating the Empire would be a victory for the Dark One, possibly a decisive one. Few dare to defy him openly, but few follow his orders without trying to twist them for their own benefit. He walks the land in power not seen since the Age of Legends, but still greater power waits in the Blight, ready to destroy him. As for his three lovers, presented by some as evidence of his Marty Stu-ness, RJ based that off of his own life!

 

I may be reading too much into the story, but the Wheel of Time almost strikes me as a fantasy version of the Vietnam War (and RJ was a Vietnam veteran, so there may be something to it). In Vietnam, the U.S. military could win nearly every battle they fought directly, but the Viet Cong hid among the ordinary people. Officials that should have been directing operations with an eye to winning the war (or in the case of civilian leadership, letting those actually trained in combat give the orders!)too often made decisions based on domestic political concerns or simple ignorance. And always, the Western forces feared an open war with the Warsaw Pact against forces that could literally have destroyed the world in a nuclear exchange.

 

Initially, looking at a battle between one of the deadliest militaries in the world and the tiny nation of North Vietnam, one might have expected the fight to be rediculously one-sided... and yet America lost. That is how Rand seems to me, a character who initially appears to have the world at his feet, yet is fighting a losing battle. Obviously, the Wheel of Time is going to end more happily than the Vietnam War did, but I feel RJ did an excellent job portraying a conflict where seemingly unstoppable power doesn't really get you where you need to be.

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He can win nearly any battle toe-to-toe, but ends up facing Darkfriends that he can't tell apart from innocents and thus can't fight.

 

Tell that to the women he killed at the campfire in TDR and the inhabitants of Natrim's Barrow. :wink:

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He can win nearly any battle toe-to-toe, but ends up facing Darkfriends that he can't tell apart from innocents and thus can't fight.

 

Tell that to the women he killed at the campfire in TDR and the inhabitants of Natrim's Barrow. :wink:

Natrim's Barrow, they where just dolls that appeared human effectively

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I'm hoping that the lack of Rand POV's throughout ToM was quite intentional. Well, obviously it was intentional, but I'm hoping we're being shielded from the inner conflicts that (I hope) he still has going on. I can accept that he's suddenly become loaded with centuries more 'life experience', but I've got my fingers crossed that he hasn't become some ideal man.

 

As for Rand's ability to sweep an army off the field, I think that just gives us a glimpse into what the War of Power was like, though the armies then were fielding more advanced weaponry. Keep in mind that at the start of the War they were living in an incredibly advanced utopia with hovercars and perfect cities and near the end of it they had reverted to a more primitive mix of technology, where horses had started being used again as pretty much all industry was wiped out. There was no channeler sitting opposite Rand in that battle capable of nullifying Rand's attacks. I'm guessing that in the War of Power such things were done, meaning that armies were useful as channelers had to primarily focus on each other and protecting their own armies from the other's attacks. I suppose the only question is why we haven't seen a few of the Forsaken wield such power. Perhaps they didn't want to draw attention to themselves, after all, it only takes one arrow when they're not looking or a knife in the dark while they're sleeping, but why didn't Be'lal or Sammael or Rhavin wield such power against Rand? Was it fear? Was Rand doing more than he himself knew? Was there some sort of honor? There are a few circumstances where it can definitely be overlooked. When Rand was wielding the power at the Eye of the World and wielding Callandor.

 

I assume it was mostly due to Rand being able to cut their weaves apart. Perhaps such widespread and non-specific destruction works better when there's no one there who can really oppose your channeling.

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Alright, cleared out the 'trolling' personal attacks. Next person who makes a comment to that effect gets a temp ban.

 

On the subject, I disagree with it when talking about early Rand, ironically--given as far as I can tell that's who your talking about Hop-Robin. I mean sure, he gets three ladies, but he also gets locked in a chest, has terrible never-healing wounds, gets made a fool of numerous times and so forth. This is not a Marty Sue to my mind--for it to be the author must be compromising other characters for him, and RJ never did that.

 

As of TofM though, where Rand sweeps away an army with a single sweep of his lazerbeam eyes whilst other characters wax lyrical about his sheer awesomosity in an orgy of florid prose....

 

Yeah, I can see what the OP is talking about.

 

I'm glad to have that cleared up.

 

As for what "version" of the character I'm talking about, I guess it depends. As said before, I found him alright in the first book, though the obvious stabs at making him seem perfect (at least in physical terms) annoyed me, along with the fact that all the three "boys" had women being drawn to them, while all seemed to think that was just the case for the two others. I wasn't too down with him receiving whatever power he did at the end of the first book either, as it felt to me like an easy solution. My liking for the character continued to drop throughout the books, as he became a grand master swordsman ever so quickly, which, even with an amazing teacher, should have been a very long and hard process.

 

And where the romances are concerned, the idea of him having more than one woman might have been appealing, if the relationships seemed genuine. To me though, it felt a bit cheap that they just seemed drawn to this man because of the... I can't recall what it was called, sorry, the fate/destiny thing he shares with Perrin and Matt. Especially his relationship with the Andor princess seemed false to me, and not for the right reasons. If she had given the impression that she wanted to marry him for power, that'd be one thing, but in her chapters she gave the impression of being in love with him, and it felt very unfounded to me. I can't remember all that much about the two others, as it's been a while since I read the books, but I recall I thought his romance with the aiel woman the most interesting of the three.

 

Hopefully that was a bit more constructive, might well have forgotten a thing or two though.

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yeah he is the most powerful human on th face of the planet but he is fighting

something that will destroy time and space so forgive how much power he

has.the main point of his journey is how life affects him.and how he reacts

to it.

 

 

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The most uninspired character I've ever had the displeasure of getting acquainted with. Must have been hard to come up with a character like that, and even harder to write about. Hmmm, what would be a good character... Ah yeah, one that's unstoppable in every way, and he should have three lovers, who don't mind sharing him because he's the epitome of awesome. Oh yeah! And in case something happens, let it be his destiny to succeed, that'll be incredibly exciting to read about. There's one issue though. What if he faces an army of a million men? No worries, he'll just blow them up with magic, since he's invincible. Oh, and he should use a ninja sword, one of the most inferior swords known to man. Because it's so fricken cool. Not like you need gear when you're already unstoppable in every way, BUT HE'S ONLY SECOND BEST WITH THE SWORD, SO IT'S NOT LIKE HE'S TOO GOOD.

 

Luckily there's something that exceeds the paltriness of the character, and that's the people worshipping him. Sure, I could pretend you're all 12 years old so it wouldn't bother me, but it does bother me that you can't acknowledge the very essence of Mary Sue which is Rand al'Thor, and the reason why fantasy can't be taken seriously as a genre. The level of daftness can never be described in words, but you're obviously beyond redemption if you can't already see that. In fact, I urge you to stay in Randland forever, you don't deserve any better.

 

:flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand:

 

FLAMING NINJA SWORDS, WHAT MORE CAN ANYONE EVER WANT

 

 

 

 

Rand al thor is the most unlikable main character in any fantasy series i have read. There's nothing redeeming about this bloke. No empathy or real about him. Tanis half elven takes a dump on him everytime. Hell even a mad villain like raistlin majere is actually better than this 'hero'

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The Mary Sue issue is definately a legit one in TEotW, but much in the same degree as it is in TLotR. Honestly, it was published over twenty years ago. If fantasy had remained so static that Rand didn't feel outdated, I wouldn't be reading it. That said, Rand's character has always been (due to the evolution of the industry in the intervening time) a much more complex one than Frodo ever was. And he has continued to develop.

 

For those asking the question as to why Rand is a great character, I would point them to Natrin's Borrow, in TGS. Those pages are some of the best I've ever read. HOW is Rand's character original? In those pages, when the reader is asked whether Rand will destroy the world with his own hands, he or she probably couldn't answer with any certainty.

 

UBER-Rand, or Zen-Rand as I have seen him called, is another matter entirely.

 

***SPOILER***

 

On the off chance that Nyneave w/circle heal the madness in Rand before it's over (unlikely) it would be interesting to see what kind of person he becomes/reverts to.

Edited by Sephie

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The most uninspired character I've ever had the displeasure of getting acquainted with. Must have been hard to come up with a character like that, and even harder to write about. Hmmm, what would be a good character... Ah yeah, one that's unstoppable in every way, and he should have three lovers, who don't mind sharing him because he's the epitome of awesome. Oh yeah! And in case something happens, let it be his destiny to succeed, that'll be incredibly exciting to read about. There's one issue though. What if he faces an army of a million men? No worries, he'll just blow them up with magic, since he's invincible. Oh, and he should use a ninja sword, one of the most inferior swords known to man. Because it's so fricken cool. Not like you need gear when you're already unstoppable in every way, BUT HE'S ONLY SECOND BEST WITH THE SWORD, SO IT'S NOT LIKE HE'S TOO GOOD.

 

Luckily there's something that exceeds the paltriness of the character, and that's the people worshipping him. Sure, I could pretend you're all 12 years old so it wouldn't bother me, but it does bother me that you can't acknowledge the very essence of Mary Sue which is Rand al'Thor, and the reason why fantasy can't be taken seriously as a genre. The level of daftness can never be described in words, but you're obviously beyond redemption if you can't already see that. In fact, I urge you to stay in Randland forever, you don't deserve any better.

 

:flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand:

 

FLAMING NINJA SWORDS, WHAT MORE CAN ANYONE EVER WANT

 

 

 

 

Rand al thor is the most unlikable main character in any fantasy series i have read. There's nothing redeeming about this bloke. No empathy or real about him. Tanis half elven takes a dump on him everytime. Hell even a mad villain like raistlin majere is actually better than this 'hero'

 

 

Tanis half elven? That torchered, self righteous, holier than thou, goody two shoes, who every time I read just makes me won't to vomit all over the book. Really? All he seems to do is cry about being a hybrid, "boo hoo I'm half human, waaaa I'm half elf, nobody likes me"

Please! Rand al'thors development from shepard to king of the world is top notch, alright he has his character flaws, but, Tanis! I would of liked him better if he died, no one that sensible deserves to live. Even his brief stint as a soldier of evil was lame.

Raistlin though I agree is a more interesting character than both by far.

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The most uninspired character I've ever had the displeasure of getting acquainted with. Must have been hard to come up with a character like that, and even harder to write about. Hmmm, what would be a good character... Ah yeah, one that's unstoppable in every way, and he should have three lovers, who don't mind sharing him because he's the epitome of awesome. Oh yeah! And in case something happens, let it be his destiny to succeed, that'll be incredibly exciting to read about. There's one issue though. What if he faces an army of a million men? No worries, he'll just blow them up with magic, since he's invincible. Oh, and he should use a ninja sword, one of the most inferior swords known to man. Because it's so fricken cool. Not like you need gear when you're already unstoppable in every way, BUT HE'S ONLY SECOND BEST WITH THE SWORD, SO IT'S NOT LIKE HE'S TOO GOOD.

 

Luckily there's something that exceeds the paltriness of the character, and that's the people worshipping him. Sure, I could pretend you're all 12 years old so it wouldn't bother me, but it does bother me that you can't acknowledge the very essence of Mary Sue which is Rand al'Thor, and the reason why fantasy can't be taken seriously as a genre. The level of daftness can never be described in words, but you're obviously beyond redemption if you can't already see that. In fact, I urge you to stay in Randland forever, you don't deserve any better.

 

:flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand:

 

FLAMING NINJA SWORDS, WHAT MORE CAN ANYONE EVER WANT

 

 

 

 

Rand al thor is the most unlikable main character in any fantasy series i have read. There's nothing redeeming about this bloke. No empathy or real about him. Tanis half elven takes a dump on him everytime. Hell even a mad villain like raistlin majere is actually better than this 'hero'

 

 

Tanis half elven? That torchered, self righteous, holier than thou, goody two shoes, who every time I read just makes me won't to vomit all over the book. Really? All he seems to do is cry about being a hybrid, "boo hoo I'm half human, waaaa I'm half elf, nobody likes me"

Please! Rand al'thors development from shepard to king of the world is top notch, alright he has his character flaws, but, Tanis! I would of liked him better if he died, no one that sensible deserves to live. Even his brief stint as a soldier of evil was lame.

Raistlin though I agree is a more interesting character than both by far.

 

 

I like your indignation. I can almost taste the passion through my monitor. But i disagree. Tanis showed more human qualities in three books than what rand showed throughout the whole books.

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The most uninspired character I've ever had the displeasure of getting acquainted with. Must have been hard to come up with a character like that, and even harder to write about. Hmmm, what would be a good character... Ah yeah, one that's unstoppable in every way, and he should have three lovers, who don't mind sharing him because he's the epitome of awesome. Oh yeah! And in case something happens, let it be his destiny to succeed, that'll be incredibly exciting to read about. There's one issue though. What if he faces an army of a million men? No worries, he'll just blow them up with magic, since he's invincible. Oh, and he should use a ninja sword, one of the most inferior swords known to man. Because it's so fricken cool. Not like you need gear when you're already unstoppable in every way, BUT HE'S ONLY SECOND BEST WITH THE SWORD, SO IT'S NOT LIKE HE'S TOO GOOD.

 

Luckily there's something that exceeds the paltriness of the character, and that's the people worshipping him. Sure, I could pretend you're all 12 years old so it wouldn't bother me, but it does bother me that you can't acknowledge the very essence of Mary Sue which is Rand al'Thor, and the reason why fantasy can't be taken seriously as a genre. The level of daftness can never be described in words, but you're obviously beyond redemption if you can't already see that. In fact, I urge you to stay in Randland forever, you don't deserve any better.

 

:flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand::flamingsword::rand:

 

FLAMING NINJA SWORDS, WHAT MORE CAN ANYONE EVER WANT

 

 

 

 

Rand al thor is the most unlikable main character in any fantasy series i have read. There's nothing redeeming about this bloke. No empathy or real about him. Tanis half elven takes a dump on him everytime. Hell even a mad villain like raistlin majere is actually better than this 'hero'

 

 

Tanis half elven? That torchered, self righteous, holier than thou, goody two shoes, who every time I read just makes me won't to vomit all over the book. Really? All he seems to do is cry about being a hybrid, "boo hoo I'm half human, waaaa I'm half elf, nobody likes me"

Please! Rand al'thors development from shepard to king of the world is top notch, alright he has his character flaws, but, Tanis! I would of liked him better if he died, no one that sensible deserves to live. Even his brief stint as a soldier of evil was lame.

Raistlin though I agree is a more interesting character than both by far.

 

 

I like your indignation. I can almost taste the passion through my monitor. But i disagree. Tanis showed more human qualities in three books than what rand showed throughout the whole books.

 

 

If by human qualities you mean getting kicked from pillar to post by all and sundry, when he's not getting used as a door mat by everyone else, then, I agree.

Truly I'm being honest here. I like the Dragonlance series a lot, but Tanis IMHO goes beyond lame.

Rand does seem to come of after books 5-6 as un feeling, but that is only logical when you have power of life and death over millions and everyone's trying to manipulate you for their own petty ambitions. I'm satisfied that the "old Rand" shines through often enough, someone who doesn't like what's happening but stays strong because he has to.

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