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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Release Date Announced: Jan. 8, 2013


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some how my last post got lost but I'll repeat myself my only fear is that all this polishing and finishing is going to make the book prohibitively large and then of course there will be no recourse but to split it further. Call me paranoid but as far as I can see this is the only reason that they are going to push back the publishing date for 2 months. All of you are making the point oh how much hype can they build in 2 more months but nobody bothers to ask if they cannot do it in 9 months how can they do it in 11 months. After all it is simple maths that if you do 2000 words per day it will be done in 180 days if you have 360000 words and remember that they are not going to completely rewrite the book even if poor BS is as bad a writer as he is made out to be and he can get no more than 20% of the book right i first attempt. They are still 72000 words and that leaves us with just 288000 words and at 2000 words per day they should get it done in 144 and remember I am saying that three people are going to be reading 2000 words per day.

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I don't, for an instant, believe that anyone involved with marketing A Memory of light wants to miss the Christmas buying season. But ...

 

A number of factors are at work here.

 

First, from what has been said by those involved, the entire production process is different this time. The previous two books there was a lot of concurrency. Sanderson would write a chunk of the book and send it to Charleston. Charleston would edit and suggest or mandate changes and send it back to Sanderson. Sanderson would send off the next hunk and do some or all of the revisions on the first chunk. Wash, rinse, repeat. Editing occurred concurrently with writing.

 

By the time Sanderson finished one of those books it was already partially or mostly edited. Turn-around time was minimized.

 

This time, supposedly, nothing got sent to Charleston until the entire first draft was complete. We don't know how the edits and revisions and suggestions and mandates are flowing back to Brandon. In pieces? All-at-once like the manuscript was submitted? At any rate, there was no concurrency this time around. Writing and editing became discrete processes. Inevitably that will consume more time.

 

In the end, all either side owes the other is consistent fairness.

 

Sadly, Robert Jordan and Harriet Mac Dougal squandered all the reader's goodwill over the last 17 years through sheer brick-headed inconsistency. Unfairly wasting the reader's time and money. Jordan could have rewritten and polished Crossroads of Twilight 27 times and it still would have been utter dreck.

 

Somewhere around here there is a thread about "If you could, what would you change about books 7-10?" That's pretty simple, reduce them to the 2 chapters they really deserved and get on with the story.

 

There used to be well over a dozen well prepared and rigorously maintained websites devoted to The Wheel of Time. Today I doubt there are four. A couple are still around in Archival form. People who are treated fairly do not invest gobs of their own time and money in helping promote interest in something and then just walk away for no reason. They walk away because they finally saw enough to convince them that they were being taken advantage of, used and abused. And, these were some of the most diehard fans. If they hadn't been they never would have started WoT sites to begin with.

 

So, Jordan, the man and the author, Team Jordan, TOR and anybody involved with producing the series, merits and will get no slack from those who have read and supported them for over 20 years. They no longer deserve it.

 

 

It seems to me, and I have read some of your more recent posts, that you are more critical of the integrity and progress of the story, which has little to do with the release date of AMoL. No one has been "used and abused," and to insinuate that is insulting. You are definitely not speaking to me when you say that Harriet and RJ have "squandered all the reader's goodwill." My time has not been wasted and my money has been well spent.

 

Maybe you have some personal vendettas about the late books of the series, but do not speak for everyone when you are clearly just speaking for yourself. Harriet above all, deserves YOUR slack. She didn't have to choose anyone to finish the series, and the fact we are even getting to finish the series is a blessing.

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Actually it's easy to understand why people are angry. Read Tor's press release from Dec: AMoL finished (link in OP). Then read the next one--if you only had access to that info, would you be thrilled too? :)

 

Per sales for Tor, I wouldn't take it as a given their year goes Jan-Dec, many business are April-March for example.

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Eh, I wouldn't get hung up on saying Brandon never promised, because you'll be able to find at least one time he did promise. I found a tweet from March 2011 where he said "sometime next year, I promise."

 

Fair enough. I didn't have that long to search and had the nagging feeling I was missing something.

 

I think that the issue boils down to whether the two-month delay -- along with the past decision to split AMoL into three parts and related delays --is being made in good faith or in bad faith. I don't question the stated grounds, while others do. Put differently, I am greatly skeptical of all "conspiracy theories," including one that this delay (and past delays) was just a conspiracy to increase profits.

 

Now, I know that it's popular in our culture to bash big corporations like Tor, and to assume that companies don't care at all about their customers and only care about money. But the two things are not contradictory. Instead, the twin goals of making the customer as happy as possible and making as much moeny as possible go hand in hand. If customers get pissed off, business will go downhill. Even for book publishers. (Perhaps we saw that lately with the recent departures of some authors from Tor.)

 

Then, we hvae to take into account that while the main objective for a corporation is to make money, the primary motivation for artists is usually not money. Sure, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson are no doubt happy if they make a lot of money. But most artists, in the end, write primarily for themselves, and aren't that concerned about what others will think about their work. At least, that is what most good arists do. Of course there is no way to get absolute certaintiy about why the book is delayed, or what motivated Robert Jordan to "extend" the series, as in books 7-10, but I see no reason to assume that he did it for any other reason than that he thought it was the best way to go. (Whether it was, on the merits, the wisest choice is a different issue.)

 

Marcel Proust's In Search of Lost Time is 7 books where (at least to my understanding) nothing at all happens, and it is apparently considered among the best books ever. Not much happens in James Joyce's Ulysseys. On the other hand, authors like Charles Dickens that were published serially probably did lengthen their books to make more money. The point is that "stuff happens" is not equal to great literature.

 

Bottom line is that I tend to assume people are doing what they feel is the right thing until given a strong reason to think otherwise. And I haven't seen any reason to think that they delay here has been made for reason other than the stated grounds that publishing the book in January 2013 is the way we can get the best possible book in as timely a fashion as possible.

 

(Although not relevant here, that does NOT mean that I think that everything people do is good and that we live in some kind of best of all possible worlds. Lots of things suck. I just mean that most people THINK they are doing the right thing even when, in reality, they may not be.)

Edited by Treemaster
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Finally, this is the one and only time I'll address the marketing issue, because I don't believe it was a driving force behind this decision. I think the wrong questions are being asked. AMoL isn't the only product Tor planed to sell this year. The right questions is: Does postponing its release increase overall sells or decrease them? That is, of all the projects nearing a finish late this year, would AMoL suffer greatly (in comparison) from being pushed back after the holidays? Would others profit from not going head to head with it? Honestly, I don't know, and quite frankly I don't think it matters. I'm firm in my assessment stated above, since after all there's been sufficient 'foreshadowing' that Harriet really wants this one to be perfect, and plans to take her time to make is so.

 

Seems to me that the absolute best option in that context would be to have AMOL published in november, preferably even earlier. WOT is TORs flagship, it is one of the biggest fantasy series ever. The release of the final book will create a huge buzz for fantasy, especially since that buzz got started when ASOIAF appeared on television. If AMOL goes first, TOR can time the release of other, smaller series so they can get on the shelves riding on the buzz AMOL creates. Especially since most people are not insane people like us, who have read the books 20 times already, and will still be picking everything apart six months after the release. Most people will read AMOL, and then hopefully start looking for new books. And just as they start to look for new series, those new books will start hitting the shelves.

The release of AMOL also means a huge potential to reach readers who have never been that into fantasy before. And having AMOl go first would mean the other series hitting the shelves just as they start getting really into WOT, and thus fantasy in general.

 

If you turnit around, and push AMOL to after the other books, you risk drowning those books in the building of the AMOL-campaign. New readers will not notice them at all.

 

That is at least how I see it. But I try to think logically, and things related to economy is often anything but.

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Thinking from a different angle, does this in any way endear Tor, as a publishing house, to future writing talent?

 

From a certain point of view: As a writer, or holder of intellectual property, you might be really happy to have a publisher that's willing to work with you - in the sense that if you weren't happy with prior results, or whatever it was, and wanted to push back a planned release for further refinement of your work, to the point at which you were fully satisfied with both the process, something you're putting your name on...

 

I assume you'd be pretty pleased with the sort of working relationship, which seems to be the sort of dynamic between Team J & Tor.

 

Taking that into account, and being on the outside, if you're a new talent, and have something great on your hands - You look at the kind of thing Tor's willing to do on a highly visible level. It's almost a plus from a PR level within the industry: It might be perceived that wow, Tor really works with you and are willing to miss out on a huge seasonal sales cycle for the sake of my own satisfaction with my (possible)life's work.

 

As much as WoT can be a big deal in their portfolio, after AMoL, it's on to the next one - And you've gotta figure by doing right by Mrs. H & Team J, as a publisher they're sort of demonstrating the kind of treatment that could reinforce & further develop perceptions amongst new unsigned talent.

 

 

Something like that *shrug :perrin:

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WTF?

 

The world ends on the 21st of December! Now we'll never read the last volume!

 

And, who knows, it actually may.

 

I was browsing in a bookstore one day fifteen years ago or so, and noticed somebody a few years younger than I am looking at one of the earlier WoT novels. I told him, "It's up to you, but either you'll die or the author will before that series is ever finished."

 

I'm truly sorry that I was correct about that.

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Peter!

 

Giddy with excitement -- have you read the draft?!? Is RJs ending killer good?!?

 

Can I start getting excited now?!?

 

Please tell me you loved the story of the last book - I bet it goes at a million miles an hour!

 

Enough exclamation marks!

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For a minute I thought I was in the Occupy Wall Street thread.

 

 

Or that Stan, by Eminem was playing in the background?

Edited by Mat's Spare Hat
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I don't, for an instant, believe that anyone involved with marketing A Memory of light wants to miss the Christmas buying season. But ...

 

A number of factors are at work here.

 

First, from what has been said by those involved, the entire production process is different this time. The previous two books there was a lot of concurrency. Sanderson would write a chunk of the book and send it to Charleston. Charleston would edit and suggest or mandate changes and send it back to Sanderson. Sanderson would send off the next hunk and do some or all of the revisions on the first chunk. Wash, rinse, repeat. Editing occurred concurrently with writing.

 

By the time Sanderson finished one of those books it was already partially or mostly edited. Turn-around time was minimized.

 

This time, supposedly, nothing got sent to Charleston until the entire first draft was complete. We don't know how the edits and revisions and suggestions and mandates are flowing back to Brandon. In pieces? All-at-once like the manuscript was submitted? At any rate, there was no concurrency this time around. Writing and editing became discrete processes. Inevitably that will consume more time.

 

In the end, all either side owes the other is consistent fairness.

 

Sadly, Robert Jordan and Harriet Mac Dougal squandered all the reader's goodwill over the last 17 years through sheer brick-headed inconsistency. Unfairly wasting the reader's time and money. Jordan could have rewritten and polished Crossroads of Twilight 27 times and it still would have been utter dreck.

 

Somewhere around here there is a thread about "If you could, what would you change about books 7-10?" That's pretty simple, reduce them to the 2 chapters they really deserved and get on with the story.

 

There used to be well over a dozen well prepared and rigorously maintained websites devoted to The Wheel of Time. Today I doubt there are four. A couple are still around in Archival form. People who are treated fairly do not invest gobs of their own time and money in helping promote interest in something and then just walk away for no reason. They walk away because they finally saw enough to convince them that they were being taken advantage of, used and abused. And, these were some of the most diehard fans. If they hadn't been they never would have started WoT sites to begin with.

 

So, Jordan, the man and the author, Team Jordan, TOR and anybody involved with producing the series, merits and will get no slack from those who have read and supported them for over 20 years. They no longer deserve it.

It seems to me, and I have read some of your more recent posts, that you are more critical of the integrity and progress of the story, which has little to do with the release date of AMoL. No one has been "used and abused," and to insinuate that is insulting. You are definitely not speaking to me when you say that Harriet and RJ have "squandered all the reader's goodwill." My time has not been wasted and my money has been well spent.

 

Maybe you have some personal vendettas about the late books of the series, but do not speak for everyone when you are clearly just speaking for yourself. Harriet above all, deserves YOUR slack. She didn't have to choose anyone to finish the series, and the fact we are even getting to finish the series is a blessing.

I hate to nest this much quote, but I have noticed what Bob is talking about in the rasfwrj archives. I think it's not so simple as he makes it out to be. Yes, there are a ton of fans who gave up on WoT during the 7-10 era. You might say Leigh Butler was one of them, for example. Erica Sadun was another. But what Bob doesn't recognize is that, when the internet began to modernize in '96, things started changing in the WoT online fandom as well, and so you've got two different things going on here. Older fans who were tired of waiting 2-3 years for books that weren't as awesome as the first six just disappeared, and places like rasfwrj died out, but in 1998, Dragonmount, Theoryland, and TarValon were created, and Wotmania in the following year. Out of those four sites, undeniably the most major WoT sites since 1998, only one admin gave up in disgust. The others are still quite dedicated to the series and the fandom. These sites have a lot of members who have been reading since the early books, but they also have many newer members like myself who were able to read through all those books at once and not be bothered by the lull at all. I picked up Winter's Heart when it was not yet out in paperback, so that was about 2001. COT was the first book I had to wait for. Luckers and Linda, for example, showed up just before I did. And while there might not be as many WoT sites as there used to be, WoT has the most resources on the net of any contemporary series out there, by a long shot. Encyclopaedia WoT, 13th Depository, the Interview Database, various Wiki, etc. There is obviously quite a bit of continuing dedication to the series. And in some ways, it might be more accurate to say that a lot of those older fans 'grew out' of their geek phase. That happens a lot. People spend time on things like this when they're young, in school, and don't have much better to do. There are exceptions, obviously, but it's generally true. Most old-timers at Theoryland generally avoid WoT discussion and just post on Non-WoT boards when they're at work because they have friends there.

 

RJ began to have health problems in 1994, though we're not sure on the details. His doctor told him that he had to slow down or he would die. So the books took longer, and they covered less ground. And while I can see how some things in books 7-10 could be trimmed, I think it's a little ridiculous to suggest that they could have been boiled down to two chapters. I think they could have been boiled down to three books, or more accurately, that books 7-11 could have been boiled down to 3, but any further boiling-down would have omitted a good number of important details. And ultimately, most people who read these books are not going to be a part of the serial release experience, and the lull will barely affect them. I don't think it's fair to say that fans were 'used and abused' during those years, though I can imagine what it was like and sympathize with the frustration. To the point, the lull itself will matter less and less as the years go on. The difference between RJ's books and Brandon's books will matter more and more. That's why I'm happy they're taking more time.

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If the world ends December 21, 2012 I going to be pissed the Mayans better be wrong.

 

The Mayans never said the world would end. People interpreting their calendar said that.

So no worries!

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Ahh Terez, you are quite fortunate to have gotten on the proverbial train so late. Been riding this sucker for about 17, maybe 18 years now.

 

The only book I did not LOVE is CoT because little actually happened. Still enjoyed reading it, just wished it had more substance. I am a total fanboy, obviously considering I'm reading and writing in a forum about it. I can understand the frustration people have with the delay, but give it a rest already. What's done is done. I'm just happy we actually get to have the story finished.

 

Now if I could just get Mr. Sanderson to come to Louisiana for the book tour. Peter, I know you're reading this. I'll get the wife to make you cookies. How about some Magic cards? No? A bottle of scotch? Make it happen! Yes, I know TOR makes these decisions, but certainly we can get in someone's ear about it. People in the Sourh can and do read. My brother in Baltimore got to go to the last two signings so fortunately I did get signed copies.

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Ahh Terez, you are quite fortunate to have gotten on the proverbial train so late. Been riding this sucker for about 17, maybe 18 years now.

It's like an old friend then.

 

The only book I did not LOVE is CoT because little actually happened. Still enjoyed reading it, just wished it had more substance. I am a total fanboy, obviously considering I'm reading and writing in a forum about it.

You should totally come back to Theoryland. :myrddraal:

 

Now if I could just get Mr. Sanderson to come to Louisiana for the book tour.

I asked him when he was coming to NO and then when he was actually there (for a librarians' conference or something) I didn't go because he didn't want me in his limousine. :(

 

Peter, I know you're reading this. I'll get the wife to make you cookies.

The Secret Service won't let him eat anything not prepared by their agents.

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Last I heard Chesus was in BR. I'm in MS, so not far away. Though I have only been to Lafayette once, not counting driving through on the way to Lake Charles.

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Terez,

 

I both like your way of presenting yourself and respect the hard work you've done.

 

Since the site is gone from my bookmarks long since, I cannot with certainty say which it was, maybe Seven Spokes, maybe one of the others, but the creator/owner/admin/moderator of that site was far more scathing than anything I've ever posted when he finally gave up sometime around CoT or WH. He'd simply had enough of being strung along, and was rather more bitter about it than even I am, and he said so, straight out and abandoned the site. He very much felt used and abused, and he'd had more than he was willing to tolerate.

 

I've only stuck with the series for 20+ years now because the holes in then Eddas have always bugged me. I've always wanted the full and complete version of Ragnarok and The Wheel of Time is likely to be as close as I'll ever get.

 

But however good Robert Jordan's original idea for the series was, that's how flawed his execution of the series has been. As jewel-like as some of the individual scenes have been does not excuse the vast wasteland between those scenes. They are tiny bits of hamburger in a whole lot of helper.

 

EDIT: Well, it's definitely not Seven Spokes as that one is still alive and well and being kept up, so I can't say for certain which one it was.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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Well I totally get that part about people giving up on the series. somewhere around 2002 we used to had a group on pal talk where everyone was a huge fan of wot. I guess we had as many as a couple of hundred members on it but I guess I am the only one from that group who is still following the series as most of them are still friends and we stay in touch. One thing is sure I am not buying another TOR book after the conclusion of this series. I am all for commercial success and earning money but this is high handedness. It reminds me of my university teacher, we had this quiz so we went to him and asked for a delay of couple of days. His answer was if you could not do it in 3 days you cannot do it in 5 days either. I mean even if they aim for a Nov release date they will have 9 months to do it. I mean my boss is going to fire me for just thinking of taking 9 months for any job.

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But again, it has absolutely nothing to do with earning more money. They're losing money to do it this way.

 

I think we'll have more clarity on the new release date on Monday, as I discussed here. There are important decisions being made here, and they're decisions that will impact the series forever. A couple of months won't make a difference in the end, and if anything, it gives the Team more time to make sure the book is as good as it can be. We all saw how fan impatience affected TOM.

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