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DRAGONMOUNT

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Kivam

Release Date Announced: Jan. 8, 2013

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Wow. Its amazing to me that people still dont get it.

 

I say this as someone who SUPPORTS Team Jordan, but I'm also honest. And not a total Kool-Aid drinker.

 

Its NOT ABOUT "a few extra weeks" or "1-2 more months.''

First of all, that's not even accurate, if you've been following - and understand - the process from the start of the timeline.

 

Its also much more about the fact that - from a PR Standpoint - probably even Tor would admit that they wished they had some recent comments back.

 

Someone from here PMed me what I think is a fair point. The press release WAS a bit brusque, curt and - arguably - slightly condescending and the person that PMed me pointed out that today people expect to practically have their ASSS KISSED in every way possible when someone is communicating something to them. Especially when they're the "fan/customer." And Tor did not do that.

 

I also feel Brandon should probably NEVER have been allowed to post the big "AMOL IS DONE!!!" back when he did.

 

Lately, to me at least, Brandon (and I do NOT know the man) is really coming off as a guy who - despite his love for WOT/WOT Fans and his honor at finishing the series - is exhausted and VERY ready to be DONE with it. I find that sad. I don't blame him though.

 

Tor admitting, in the same press release that aoounced the delay, that they would be selling 'PRE-AMOL' Merchandise probably wasn't the best move either. Or, maybe, at least not right then. People are getting so sick of EVERYTHING being so over-commercialized.

 

So, was EVERYTHING handled 100% perfectly? Of course not. These are human beings here. I'm one and I make mistakes every single day, so I'm at the point where I'm just putting all of my support behind Team Jordan and moving on, with great happiness that we're maybe 9 and 1/2 - 10 months away from AMOL. :)

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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I used to think the push back was all about the hype and the selling season, but the fact that the release is after Christmas pretty much rules out the 'hype-machine' theory. I think, just maybe, they are trying to do right by us in the long term. We won't remember when this book was released after 5 years......just saying....

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I can't believe this thread is still going. Seems to me there is nothing more to be said on the topic. That being said...

 

 

Sweet passes away late November. Late December we have the omigod AMoL is finished press release that hopefully someone was fired over. Two months later, we get a Jan 2013 release date press release. Yah, that's just brilliant marketing :)

 

 

Excellent summary of why the latest decisions and announcements were NOT made for marketing reasons.

 

And I still agree with this:

 

Grow up. You can wait an extra few weeks for this book.

 

Jordan created the series we love. Sanderson has agreed to finish it. Tor is Jordan/Sanderson's publisher. Tor and Sanderson can take as long as they want to publish the book, and it makes no difference whether fans think they are being "handled" or otherwise. Tor has no obligation to provide detailed explanations behind its publication decisions. And the fans have no "right" to having the last book in the series published at all, much less at any specific date or time, much less a 100% accurate announcement as to when the publication will be made.

 

The book is, hopefully, art, not merchandise like a pair of clothes or a car. Or an order of french fries.

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Tor has no obligation to provide detailed explanations behind its publication decisions. And the fans have no "right" to having the last book in the series published at all, much less at any specific date or time

Oh, I completely agree. The problem starts when they decide to do so anyway, and then don't stand behind what they've said. So, if by

much less a 100% accurate announcement as to when the publication will be made.

you mean that they're under no obligation to provide such estimations, then again - I agree. But if you mean that they should be free to announce deadlines or considerations as often, with as sure a prose, as they wish without being held to it, well then I don't agree.

 

The book is, hopefully, art, not merchandise like a pair of clothes or a car. Or an order of french fries.

Hallelujah.

Only, folks do consume this particular type of art, and are free to complain about the service they get as in any other kind of merchant-customer relationship.

Edited by yoniy0
Typo

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Only, folks do consume this particular type of art, and are free to complain about the service they get as in any every other kind of merchant-customer relationship.

 

I agree with you on this point.

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Only, folks do consume this particular type of art, and are free to complain about the service they get as in any every other kind of merchant-customer relationship.

 

I agree with you on this point.

 

Terez is apparently privy to much more information than the rest of us, or she's just making stuff up. As hard as she has worked to document so many things about this series, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say she knows stuff I, for one, have never heard before.

 

Whatever the truth may be, it has not been clearly communicated to us, the readers and consumers of this "art." Since it is our money that is paying for the food that many at Tor and all at Team Jordan eat every day, I do believe they owe us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And, that they are not delivering. Not in the past, not now, and based on past history, they will not deliver it in the future.

 

They will spin and massage and handle. But they are incapable of simply speaking the truth.

 

Brandon Sandeerrson was up-front with us. He told us he was a little burned out. He told us he needed to take the time to do another thorough reread before beginning A Memory of Light. He told us, up front that he would not even be beginning to write the final volume until he had the chance to take a breather and finish that reread. He also told when he did begin writing the book almost exactly a year ago as he had forecast. And, he further, through hard work, delivered his first draft by the end of 2011 as he had promised. It took him 9 months to write the book. To stitch together his words and Jordan's words and make a coherent story. He told us what was going to happen and he delivered on what he told us.

 

Team Jordan now needs 10 to 12 months, 2 to 3 months longer than the book took to write to edit and revise it? This is where we start running into fertilizer. This is where all the noxious odors come from. And, Harriet McDougal is the primary source.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

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To stitch together his words and Jordan's words and make a coherent story.

 

I'm not sure that's true. The first draft, I imagine, would be far from coherent.

 

For me, I just look back at Towers of Midnight, all the inconsistencies, the mistakes, the timeline errors and think if the extra time is going to eradicate all that from the last book then I'm fine with it.

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Brandon Sandeerrson was up-front with us. He told us he was a little burned out. He told us he needed to take the time to do another thorough reread before beginning A Memory of Light. He told us, up front that he would not even be beginning to write the final volume until he had the chance to take a breather and finish that reread. He also told when he did begin writing the book almost exactly a year ago as he had forecast. And, he further, through hard work, delivered his first draft by the end of 2011 as he had promised. It took him 9 months to write the book. To stitch together his words and Jordan's words and make a coherent story. He told us what was going to happen and he delivered on what he told us.

 

Team Jordan now needs 10 to 12 months, 2 to 3 months longer than the book took to write to edit and revise it? This is where we start running into fertilizer. This is where all the noxious odors come from. And, Harriet McDougal is the primary source.

 

Seriously Bob? You are going to insinuate someone is possibly "making stuff up" when you have been corrected more than once in this thread giving wrong info?

 

As others have said the first draft(especially the way BS works) is far from coherent. He only a short time ago wrapped up he second and called the next draft the "big one". In addition contrary to what you say above he has missed deadlines on this project and that is one of many things that have contributed to the delay. As for Harriet I'm not sure how you can spin protecting her husbands legacy into a negative?

Edited by Suttree

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I still disagree with this. Not to simply be argumentative, but because I believe it. To say that marketing and profit play NO part in the release of such a product is of course silly.

You need to tell us HOW it's supposed to make more money to delay it.

 

I also don't agree that the absence of a ''Holiday Season Release'' hurts them. Actually - and I have worked in the industry/retail - many times Christmas Sales and Holiday Discounts LOWER profit on products.

They lower retail prices, which doesn't affect how much money the publisher gets at all. So if it's supposed to lower profit for Tor, then you need to explain how. People in the publishing business have disagreed. Are you in the publishing business?

 

 

Well, for one thing, last week Tor announced that they will be selling "lead-up" merchandise to AMOL later this year. It rubbed me the wrong way to see how commercialized something I have such an artistic attatchment to is becoming. I certainly support Tors right to do so, though.

 

 

Fish

 

Edit. Didn't see your question. Sorry. No, I am not a publisher. I have worked in the industry however, and it makes me sad to see how currently rife with dissension and disagreement it is on so MANY issues. But THAT is an entirely different topic.

 

What sort of merchandise?

 

LOL. Well, that was predictable. Just keep in mind that not everyone agrees. It's not about marketing to Harriet so much as it is about doing things the right way, clearly. Choosing another artist at this point would have been downright tacky. Choosing Whelan was thematically the only right choice, for many reasons, most especially 1) he was already doing the ebook cover, 2) he was on RJ's original shortlist of two for the cover artist, 3) he is one of the most celebrated cover artists of all time, and 4) they had to do their best to honor DKS's memory, just as they did their best to honor RJ's memory by having the books finished properly.

 

Sorry, Terez, but I can't resist.

 

Daryl K. Sweet's cover art and illustrations are universally loathed. Worldwide. The Foreign publishers insist upon creating their own covers. At extra expense to themselves. That's how universally loathed Sweet's covers are. Honoring his memory properly would be to ask a First Grader to color-up something original with the BIG Crayons.

 

It's one more weak excuse heaped upon a pile of bad and questionable decisions being made by the people we are supposed to trust to make the book BETTER????

 

Foreign publishers tend to create their own covers anyway, so it really does not say anything about the quality or lack thereof of the art if different publishers use different cover art for books.

Edited by threadnecromancer

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I still disagree with this. Not to simply be argumentative, but because I believe it. To say that marketing and profit play NO part in the release of such a product is of course silly.

You need to tell us HOW it's supposed to make more money to delay it.

 

I also don't agree that the absence of a ''Holiday Season Release'' hurts them. Actually - and I have worked in the industry/retail - many times Christmas Sales and Holiday Discounts LOWER profit on products.

They lower retail prices, which doesn't affect how much money the publisher gets at all. So if it's supposed to lower profit for Tor, then you need to explain how. People in the publishing business have disagreed. Are you in the publishing business?

 

 

Well, for one thing, last week Tor announced that they will be selling "lead-up" merchandise to AMOL later this year. It rubbed me the wrong way to see how commercialized something I have such an artistic attatchment to is becoming. I certainly support Tors right to do so, though.

 

 

Fish

 

Edit. Didn't see your question. Sorry. No, I am not a publisher. I have worked in the industry however, and it makes me sad to see how currently rife with dissension and disagreement it is on so MANY issues. But THAT is an entirely different topic.

 

What sort of merchandise?

 

LOL. Well, that was predictable. Just keep in mind that not everyone agrees. It's not about marketing to Harriet so much as it is about doing things the right way, clearly. Choosing another artist at this point would have been downright tacky. Choosing Whelan was thematically the only right choice, for many reasons, most especially 1) he was already doing the ebook cover, 2) he was on RJ's original shortlist of two for the cover artist, 3) he is one of the most celebrated cover artists of all time, and 4) they had to do their best to honor DKS's memory, just as they did their best to honor RJ's memory by having the books finished properly.

 

Sorry, Terez, but I can't resist.

 

Daryl K. Sweet's cover art and illustrations are universally loathed. Worldwide. The Foreign publishers insist upon creating their own covers. At extra expense to themselves. That's how universally loathed Sweet's covers are. Honoring his memory properly would be to ask a First Grader to color-up something original with the BIG Crayons.

 

It's one more weak excuse heaped upon a pile of bad and questionable decisions being made by the people we are supposed to trust to make the book BETTER????

 

Foreign publishers tend to create their own covers anyway, so it really does not say anything about the quality or lack thereof of the art if different publishers use different cover art for books.

 

I have no idea. But, you can go to Tor.com and read their post announcing the Delay. They mention it in there.

 

 

Fish

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It's the already announced things like the comics and the new paperbacks with the eBook cover art on them. All stuff that was in the works anyways. As far as I know, there are no plans for anything else from Tor.

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I used to think the push back was all about the hype and the selling season, but the fact that the release is after Christmas pretty much rules out the 'hype-machine' theory. I think, just maybe, they are trying to do right by us in the long term. We won't remember when this book was released after 5 years......just saying....

Right, bc book 13 would be a good present for christmas for a newcomer. Christmas will be for attracting new readers through new covers of previous books.

I already expressed my thoughts on the whole issue and from following the thread i c nothing new said here that shows why it will take 12 months for THREE PEOPLE to edit the work of one person. For those that say i dont understand the process, please, provide white papers links or some other factual data that will prove to me that it is something that is industry standard. All i c is people "rolling their eyes" and dismiss any critics with "u just dont get it."

 

*sorry for spelling, im on my phone.

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I already expressed my thoughts on the whole issue and from following the thread i c nothing new said here that shows why it will take 12 months for THREE PEOPLE to edit the work of one person. For those that say i dont understand the process, please, provide white papers links or some other factual data that will prove to me that it is something that is industry standard. All i c is people "rolling their eyes" and dismiss any critics with "u just dont get it."

 

If you have read the entire thread you have seen posts from industry insiders, BS assistant and others who have discussed the reasons behind the delay. Brandon hasn't even finished the "big one" yet in terms of revision drafts, the new artist requests numerous months to read the text, BS is writing in someone elses world, it has been shown how long RJ actually took after he ran out of pre-written material, and last but most important Team Jordan has admitted to how poor the quality was for TGS and ToM and is taken every step possible to address those issues. Harriet wants to protect RJ's legacy and make this the best possible book it can be. It has been stated that Harriet has wished for even more time and she should be applauded for not rushing the process.

 

One final time, everyone who dismisses the Holiday season knows very little about how the publishing industry/retail works. It has very little bearing that this is the final book in the series. The percentage of people in these fan communities are such a small portion of the overall number that will buy this book and buying it for "newcomers" is not the issue in the slightest. The majority of people, even those that have read the entire series won't even know the book is out until they see it on the shelves.

Edited by Suttree

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Yeah, if Peter Ahlstrom, one of the guys who are responsible for managing the revision process comes in here and says "This is how long it's going to take" and some folks chose not to believe that, then there's really nothing else to say on the matter. I get being frustrated by the wait. I want the next book as badly as everyone else. But yelling at the people writing it isn't going to help that.

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Brandon did a great job with the series when he took over.

 

By book 9, the pace was almost dead and plodding, espacially the parts that did with the women. Was Harriet the writer for those long winded parts? Do we really need to know how Egween will turn her head, which direction she faces, and which foot her horse started off with?

 

I mean,20 over pages dedicated to just the dress she or Elayne wears in their dreams! C'mon, it's irrelevant to the plot! I can understand slow times, and showing their motivations, but those pages were excessively long, long winded and was not even relevant to the storyline.I almost threw the book away and gave up on the series.

 

But when Brandon came along, as well the quick publishing dates, my interest pick up back again. The pace was great, and it moves pretty well with the activities of the other actors in the plots, not that excessive and mindless as the past, except still a bit slow for the women actors, but much better than before.

 

As for this long date to publish the final installment, I think Harriet did a disservice to loyal fans of Robert Jordan. I doubt if Robert himself wanted to kept it that long and long drawn.

 

Much of the plots and storylines were already long completed before he passed on. Those delays had only turn off loyal fans, as well as done an injustice to the late Robert Jordan.

 

Like Rand on Dragonmount in Book 12, Jordon, and even to a certain extent Brandon, understood what they both were writing for. It seems No one, No one else in the decision making board, understood.

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Whether or not it is actually a 'good' present for newcomers, people will still buy it, especially as gifts for friends or family members. You can read one of these books and enjoy it (albeit, not fully) midstream. I don't think people would see that as too much of a problem. With a good marketing machine, companies can get people to buy all kinds of things, whether they need the item or not. So, yeah, I think that the Christmas season would still be prime time to sell the book from a profit standpoint.

 

I do agree with you Suttree, most people won't know its out until it hits the stores, or at least until Amazon tells them its time to pre-order ;)

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Thank you Harriet and Tor <heavy sarcasm> for the e-book release date.

 

Well the release date of the e-book three MONTHS after the hardback proves once and for all Harriet doesn't give monkey's about those of us who read e-books. Her stance that a book isn't a book if it needs an external power source doesn't fly. She allows audio books the same day, they need an external power source. This is the biggest kick in the teeth for people who cannot hold heavy hardbacks, or only use e-readers.

A very sad day the fact we have to wait over three months. The worst part of it, for Harriet and Tor is that by making it such a long gap between the two people WILL look elsewhere for a copy.

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Thank you Harriet and Tor <heavy sarcasm> for the e-book release date.

Why laying the sarcasm on them? They're not the only ones in the process of negotiating the terms. Maybe it is more expensive to publish the books that way? You want something expensive - you pay for it. Edited by Nightstrike

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Thank you Harriet and Tor <heavy sarcasm> for the e-book release date.

Why laying the sarcasm on them? They're not the only ones in the process of negotiating the terms. Maybe it is more expensive to publish the books that way? You want something expensive - you pay for it.

 

Actually it is NOT more expensive to produce an e-book. The release date IS down to Harriet and Tor. I would advise you to check Amazon, most authors who release e-books release them the same day as the hardback is. So, the fact Harriet and Tor are holding it back is purely down to Harriet, and her well-known dislike for e-books. This is a massively unfair action by them, they are hurting the fans who read their books this way. The fact that GRRM released a Dance with Dragons the same day in e-format and got it still got to #1 on the NYT list proves that simultaneous release DO work, aMoL would still make #1 if it was done in e-format. This is nothing but a vindictive action.

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I have read the thoughts and opinions of everyone regarding this issue. The turn around on this book still is annoying. I get what people are saying about Harriet and the process. She wants to preserve her husbands legacy. His legacy is already preserved in all our minds. I read one post from someone who was part of the publishing team about not wanting to spend too many overtime hours working in a short time frame like that did last time. I disagree!

 

We have been reading this saga for 2 decades now. We have been patient and supportive for the story and certainly for the Robert Jordan. His loss was not just a loss of an author for many of us. But at some point, everyone on this project needs to remember that we matter too. You will have midnight openings which people will line up for waiting for the chance at the book. Jordan-con doesn't happen because Harriet is a nice (I assume she is!). It happens because of all of us in this community.

 

I want the book to be great. Its probably going to be the best of the series. I've bought the series several times over through the years, lending out some, losing some. But I always make sure to get new copies. This is probably the case for many people. It's time that Harriet and her team went into overdrive. Not because we don't like her, but because it's the right thing to do for the fans. Loyal, supportive, caring fans who have dedicated a big part of themselves for this project too.

 

I don't mind paying or getting in line or anything else. If it CAN'T be done that is one thing. Not doing it because you want to take an extra 3 months just because you want perfection, that is another. It will never be perfect no matter how many years you took. But it will be great and a lot of extra effort on their part at this point would be an appropriate way to say thank you to all us fans, supporters and friends of WOT, Robert Jordan, Harriet, et al.

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Actually it is NOT more expensive to produce an e-book.

For those who don't have to pay for the hardware.

 

The release date IS down to Harriet and Tor.
No.

 

 

 

This is nothing but a vindictive action.
If they got the same benefit as they did with printed books, why would they be "vindictive"?

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Actually it is NOT more expensive to produce an e-book.

For those who don't have to pay for the hardware.

 

I am guessing you know nothing about e-readers then. You can read them on smart phones with an app. You can read them on your PC with FREE software.

 

 

The release date IS down to Harriet and Tor.
No.

 

Epic fail. The release date of the e-book IS down to her. check your facts. ToM was going to be six months till Brandon got it cut, the original date was Harriet's decision. No one else's.

 

 

 

This is nothing but a vindictive action.
If they got the same benefit as they did with printed books, why would they be "vindictive"?

There is NO real reason for the delay, other than the simple fact Harriet does not like e-books. when other authors do a same date release of hardback and e-book and can make #1 on best sellers why, oh why can aMoL not be done the same?

Edited by Thom_Merrilin_UK

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