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How Sanderson changed the naration


sonjaruff
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I do. When Rand acts like a silly child, Cadsuane addresses him as a silly child, saviour or the world or no. When Sorilea acts like a respectable adult, Cadsuane addresses her as a respectable adult, wilder or no. When Verin acts like a deeply mysterious, potentially dangerous player in the game, Cadsuane addresses her as a deeply mysterious, potentially dangerous player in the game, lower standing in the Aes Sedai hierarchy or no.

 

Cadsuane may not have been pleasant, but the one thing she always was was remarkably adaptable. Indeed, this is the very core of how she managed to be so very unpleasant--because she was so able to adapt herself to whom she was facing.

 

Under Brandon, whether she was being pleasant or unpleasent, she was in no way adaptable.

But Rand never acted like a silly child around her when she slapped him or treated him like a halfwit. So he cursed a few times, big deal, that's no reason to hit him. You have to be remarkably stubborn and lacking adaptability to slap him for that when you're trying to earn the trust and respect of the saviour of the world. The balefire incident in ACOS is in the same vein - OK, she may think that balefire is too dangerous, but Rand is not 5 years old. Instead of slapping him (which only made him more stubborn) she should've just explained to him the dangers of balefire. Slapping him won't make him less likely to use it in the future - just less likely to listen to the warning. She didn't adapt at all to Rand even after the failure of her first meetings with him - she continued giving ultimatums and treating him like a silly child. She lucked out big time with Min's viewing that Rand needed her.

 

 

 

If I remember correctly she hit Rand twice. (Don't have the books to reference) Once over balefire, witch in my mind is a pretty reasonable way of teaching a new channeler the dangers of a weave that nearly unravelled the pattern. Don't forget they were in a battle situation so she could hardly sit him down and patently explain the dangers of balefire. No, the time called for a short, sharp, shock and that's what he got.

The other time was at the stone and to my mind Rand was acting like a spoilt brat. If you look at it another way you could see that what Cadsuane was doing was admire able, as all others (wetlanders at least) hopped when Rand said toad and she risked her life daily to remind a man who could of went mad and attacked her at any time that he was not god.

As for not teaching anything, I believe she was meant to teach him to laugh again which she did all be it in a round about way.

And lastly. Not adaptable? Really?

First time she see's Rand its too test his metal in CoS, then keeping his secret as she Darlin, Caraline, min and other AS battle the fog in the rebel camp, then after warning him not to use his power(which caused the distraction Fain needed to slice him)helped him too the palace and when Samitsu is trying to stop Flin, its Cads who has the wisdom and foresight to realise he could save Rand when it seems even, Amys was uncertain. Add to that helping to get Rand out of Far Madding and fighting off the Forsaken while Rand and Nynaeve cleansed saidin, your argument that she's just a dumb bully looks thin.

Also new zen Rand keeps her round as a adviser, if he the saviour of the world (as you put it) sees her worth then it should be end of story.

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Remarkably adaptable. And yet, she didn't adapt. Not when Rand first went cold and they had their initial confrontation--despite her being aware something was wrong, she just pushed and pushed at all odds with every previous interaction they'd had--and not in this crux moment despite months of being ready for it.

 

Being adaptable doesn't mean she can't make mistakes. It doesn't mean she will always adapt to every single circumstance without fail. She's not some kind of superwoman - better than 95% of all the other Aes Sedai, but by no means infallible.

 

The moment with Tam was the final card she had left. She had been exiled and this was her last ditch effort to bring Rand back to the light. To break it down further:

 

1. Cadsuane realises she's failed in the worst way possible.

2. This failure may well mean the end of the world.

3. Tam correctly accuses her of causing the whole mess to begin with.

 

Was it out of character? Yes. But there were very good reasons for it.

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Rand most certainly was acting like a spoiled brat at times with her. I recall the whole little dog & pony show with the other Ashaman and using veiled threats with the power from tPoD. Cads has shown to be remarkably adaptable and almost always treats people how they deserve.

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Cads has shown to be remarkably adaptable and almost always treats people how they deserve.

I guess that's a fundamental difference here. I don't think Rand deserved to be treated the way that Cadsuane treated him.

 

I'm just at the beginning of the Mat-Tylin sequence, and the thing that I keep thinking — it's what I thought when I first read it — is that if the genders were reversed, the man would be reprehensible. Consider an older man, a king, who finds a young girl visiting his palace, attempts to starve her to get her affections, then breaks into her room, holds a knife to her, and forces her to have sex with him. That's about the clearest-cut case of rape I can imagine, and treating it as benignly as RJ does with Mat and Tylin would be as offensive as the ancient comedies in which a woman is raped and her "happy ending" is that her attacker claims it was because he "really loved" her and now he wants to marry her. Mat and Tylin are handled in exactly the same way, except with the genders reversed, and I think it's just as reprehensible, even though the books don't seem to portray it that way.

 

My general feeling is that most of the woman-on-man physical abuse in the series is the same way. Cadsuane slapping Rand around (physically) fits in that category. And that's virtually her first response to him, in ACOS.

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Anywho...I've also been reading the series almost since the beginning, more than 20 years now and while I do see subtle and sometimes not so subtle differences between BS and RJ.

Not all of those differences are bad though and even the ones that could be considered "bad" are not as bad as some like to make out while any of the good is ignored.

 

Sometimes, as in the case of the "bloody ashes" comment above, I wonder how much of the "bad" is real and how much of it is imagined or at the very least, exaggerated extensively.

 

I for one am just happy to have this series seen to its conclusion, it's been a looooong time coming.

No, it's not being finished by RJ but it is getting finished and contrary to how some feel, it is NOT being completed by some hack. BS is more than just merely a competent writer, he's just not RJ but who is?

 

I also wonder how many of the people who are dead set against BS have been reading the series for a long time?

I mean, no offense here but being one of the people that had to endure the almost decade between aCoS to KoD, I have no issue what so ever with tGS or ToM.

I rank either book well ahead of PoD or Cot, that's for bloody sure.

 

I'm in the same boat as you, been reading this series forever, and I have no problems whatsoever with the Sanderson books. It's time to finish this story and move on with it. I don't mind the lack of description or epicness that RJ usually brings to scenes... it's great for a while, but after 11 books of that we all know what the world looks like, what the dresses look like, etc etc. Get on with the story.

 

As for people acting "out of character," I can only surmise that what people are doing in the Sanderson books are exactly what RJ wanted them to do. So Cadsuane has been described as remarkably adaptable. That's great, but everyone has a breaking point, no matter how patient or old you are. And to me, I felt Cadsuane hit her breaking point with the whole Tam deal. I didn't find it out of character at all, it didn't make me pause and exclaim "that's not what RJ would do!" and if it's there in the published book, even after Harriet and Team Jordan have done their thing, then it must have been what RJ wanted. He was detailed enough in the actual writing, I'm sure he was detailed enough in the notes he left when it came to all the important plot points, of which this was one.

 

I really don't see the point in picking apart every sentence BS has written and comparing it to RJ's. Enjoy the ending. It's the only one we're going to get.

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Cads has shown to be remarkably adaptable and almost always treats people how they deserve.

I guess that's a fundamental difference here. I don't think Rand deserved to be treated the way that Cadsuane treated him.

 

I'm just at the beginning of the Mat-Tylin sequence, and the thing that I keep thinking — it's what I thought when I first read it — is that if the genders were reversed, the man would be reprehensible. Consider an older man, a king, who finds a young girl visiting his palace, attempts to starve her to get her affections, then breaks into her room, holds a knife to her, and forces her to have sex with him. That's about the clearest-cut case of rape I can imagine, and treating it as benignly as RJ does with Mat and Tylin would be as offensive as the ancient comedies in which a woman is raped and her "happy ending" is that her attacker claims it was because he "really loved" her and now he wants to marry her. Mat and Tylin are handled in exactly the same way, except with the genders reversed, and I think it's just as reprehensible, even though the books don't seem to portray it that way.

 

My general feeling is that most of the woman-on-man physical abuse in the series is the same way. Cadsuane slapping Rand around (physically) fits in that category. And that's virtually her first response to him, in ACOS.

 

 

I got the feeling with Mat that had he felt strongly enough he could of got Tylin of his back. It was his bewilderment on how to handle a woman like Tylin and his being totally wrong footed by being the pursued instead of the pursuer, that RJ probably saw as an opportunity for some comedy.Which worked well IMO.

 

I agree though that the women's attitude in Randland if reversed would be chauvinistic but I like it and think it makes a good change.

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I think it's a societal thing that woman-on-man rape and also violence isn't seem to be taken as seriously as the reverse. Not that I'm condoning this, by the way. I think it's an established fact that much woman-on-man spousal abuse is never reported due to the shame and social stigma attached to it. There's usually a comedic reaction that takes place when stories about older female teachers seducing male students are in the news that certainly would be seen as inappropriate if the situation were reversed (there's a fair amount of condemnation as well, don't get me wrong). In the last season of the show True Blood, a male character is tied to a bed an repeatedly raped by the women of a particular clan, and the creator of the show said this was meant to be a humorous situation, as the character in question was someone who was known for chasing women and this was his comeuppance. The Tylin scenes with Mat didn't upset me, but maybe that's part of the problem. Again, I'm not saying this to wag my finger at RJ or anybody else, just pointing out something interesting about our culture at large.

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As for people acting "out of character," I can only surmise that what people are doing in the Sanderson books are exactly what RJ wanted them to do. So Cadsuane has been described as remarkably adaptable. That's great, but everyone has a breaking point, no matter how patient or old you are. And to me, I felt Cadsuane hit her breaking point with the whole Tam deal. I didn't find it out of character at all, it didn't make me pause and exclaim "that's not what RJ would do!" and if it's there in the published book, even after Harriet and Team Jordan have done their thing, then it must have been what RJ wanted. He was detailed enough in the actual writing, I'm sure he was detailed enough in the notes he left when it came to all the important plot points, of which this was one.
That's rather a stretch. RJ left a lot of notes about what was to happen, but he didn't fill in all the details. After Harriet and Team Jordan have done their thing, what we are left with is not what RJ would have wanted, what we are left with is at best their best guess as to what he would have wanted - their attempt at a faithful interpretation of his vision. That's not quite the same thing. And of course, we don't necessarily end up with the best case scenario. Had they taken more time, they might have been able to iron out some of the kinks, but they didn't. They put out a rushed product, and quality has, at times, suffered accordingly. Sanderson is going to interpret the characters differently, and lacking a layer of polish some of those differences will become all the more noticeable.
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Basically what Mr. Ares said. I think Sanderson is a pretty good writer, but he is very different from Jordan. I think some of the noticeable differences between the two's writing are due to writing style, yes, but I think that a lot of the times that seem especially jarring in the two Brandon books are due more to lack of time to polish and refine than completely Brandon's fault. Honestly, now that AMoL is being given a bit more time to be properly revised, polished, etc., I think that most if not all of the especially "bad" scenes will be gone. There will still be differences, of course; Brandon isn't RJ, and he writes very differently, but I'm confident that more of the character problems and more major things like that will be much less of a problem in AMoL.

 

Also, I know a lot of people think that ToM was better than TGS, overall, in terms of Brandon "getting the feel" of the WoT and the characters better (I agree). I think a lot of this is also due to Brandon having written an entire other book in the WoT universe already. He had already had his crash course, he has had fan feedback, critic's feedback, etc. This is another reason that I think AMoL will be even better, Brandon simply has more experience in the WoT world (writing-wise) and he has a better idea of what didn't work and didn't mesh well in the first two books he wrote.

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If I remember correctly she hit Rand twice. (Don't have the books to reference) Once over balefire, witch in my mind is a pretty reasonable way of teaching a new channeler the dangers of a weave that nearly unravelled the pattern. Don't forget they were in a battle situation so she could hardly sit him down and patently explain the dangers of balefire. No, the time called for a short, sharp, shock and that's what he got.

 

Slapping someone in the middle of a battle with killer fog, does not seem like a particularly good idea to me. It doesn't matter that he used balefire. She can get back to him on that after they're safe. As it it, her slap caused Rand to have his back turned to Fain.

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If I remember correctly she hit Rand twice. (Don't have the books to reference) Once over balefire, witch in my mind is a pretty reasonable way of teaching a new channeler the dangers of a weave that nearly unravelled the pattern. Don't forget they were in a battle situation so she could hardly sit him down and patently explain the dangers of balefire. No, the time called for a short, sharp, shock and that's what he got.

 

Slapping someone in the middle of a battle with killer fog, does not seem like a particularly good idea to me. It doesn't matter that he used balefire. She can get back to him on that after they're safe. As it it, her slap caused Rand to have his back turned to Fain.

 

 

Ok maybe Cads should of waited until after the battle, then again maybe not. Don't forget that Balefire is a forbidden weave even among the AS, and she did not know how much Rand knew of it and the danger it poses.

But whether that was the time or not is debatable.

I disagree however that her slap caused him to have his back turned while Fain sliced him. Toram was freaking out and running away, Darlin realising who Rand was, was trying put himself between Rand and Caraline.

Bottom line is, if Rand would of done what he was told and not used the power there would of been no distraction.

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Bottom line is, if Rand would of done what he was told and not used the power there would of been no distraction.

 

I think a large part of the problems with Cadsuane is that she (and MANY other in the series) think Rand should be TOLD what to do, instead of ADVISED. Remember that this was the breakthrough that Moiraine had with him, that wisdom was imparted to Egwene, and no other Aes Sedai (aside from Nyneave in her own way) seem to understand.

 

It's not just that Cadsuane is a bully, its that ALL Aes Sedai in the series are bullies. They are, regardless of whether they hit someone, or use the power on them, or manipulate them, bullying everyone around them. Every time one of the Edmond fielders meets up with a new Aes Sedai, they immediately try to take control - and are always completely floored when they aren't unequivocally listened to. The scene where Galina meets up with Perrin really drove that home to me - though you see it with Mat in his chapters escaping Ebou Dar as well.

 

I know there's a lot of love of the Cadsuane character - and I agree that she's not one-dimensional, and she's incredibly well written. I think she royally screwed up dealing with Rand - and her adaptability was completely off base with him. I don't think she was irrational, and I think she truly was doing what was write to bring Rand around.

 

But the whole point of her character was that her utter and complete failure, caused Rand to be brought around. The Cadsuane comeuppance scene I think was less about her, and more about Tam. RJ would have written it more subtly for sure, but I think the essence of that scene is what RJ wanted. Cadsuane feeling like she failed for the last time losing control, and the reader seeing the strength and calmness of Tam in the face of that confrontation after seeing what meddling has done to his son.

 

It really adds a lot of weight to what Rand says later - that the difference in he and Lews Therin is how they were brought up - and that's because of Tam.

 

I know that is a scene brought up as a failure of BS, but I think it was a great scene.

 

Another minor point - bloody ashes was brought up but not "Saidared". I thought this was weird as well - until I re-read a scene in the Tarasin Palace from Mat's PoV where he said something to the effect that he wondered whether the two sisters would try and "Out Aes Sedai each other". It is a VERY minor leap to go from that verb-ization, to turning Saidar into a verb. Sure there's no direct precedence, but there can always be new material in a book - the same descriptions and idioms get old after a while.

 

I did read about a vulture once in the last 2 books and was a little surprised however - I don't recall (but there's a lot of material) and vultures showing up previously.

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Yamahako said stuff

 

This. I've written and deleted a reply to this thread three times because it just didn't...work. This reply, however, was exactly what I have been thinking for some time and what I was trying to say.

 

Rand begins to trust Moiraine when she swears to obey. And it's not precisely because of that oath - it's because at that point he can trust that she isn't trying to rule him or brow beat him into doing what she thinks is right, that she really does have his interests in mind. At that point, he can listen to her advice and weigh it on its merits. If you look at Moiraine's attempts to steer him, pretty much since the end of TEOTW he does precisely what she doesn't want him to do, and it winds up working out because 1) it was prophesied; and 2) he, being who he is, knows better what he needs to do than she does. No full Aes Sedai (that includes those in retirement) at the time could or would believe that.

 

Rand trusts Nynaeve because he knows she really cares. She is far more human than most of the Aes Sedai out there. She will be belligerent when she thinks he is doing or behaving wrongly, but at heart how she treats him as the series goes on is because she cares.

 

I happen to think the Cadsuane character is really well done, though I don't like her much. I think her motives were right. I just think she did the wrong things in pursuit of it, never believing she could be wrong. Rand did indeed learn from her, but it was in spite of her, not because of it.

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If you look at the series as a whole, RJ started the race and got way ahead of all the competition. He then decided to take a bit of a stroll through the pit area, probably thinking that he could afford the respite. Once he really got back on the track, hen got to within 3 laps of the finish line. Brandon now gets to run those last three laps and reap the benefits. And I'm happy for Brandon for that, just as I am happy that I'm getting to read the final chapters of this epic. But to say

"Jordan was all about who wore what."
is the same as saying that RJ never provided gratification. The first 6 or 7 books in the series could almost stand by themselves outside of the series, because each one has a clear resolution of the main story for it.

 

RJs style never really changed throughout the series. He had a knack for writing clear, brief prose that richly described the subject scenes without becoming verbose or redundant. RJs richly detailed world, along with his plot are what hooked me onto the series. In books 8, 9 and 10, he didn't provide nearly as much plot gratification as he did in the rest of his books. Those books seem to be the ones that most people complain about, and I'm guessing you are basing your poor opinion of him mostly from those.

 

Why does someone who so clearly dislikes RJs style ever read his works, after sampling it?

 

Clearly we are not reading the same books. Jordan is nothing if not verbose and redundant. Pick any two books from the series go through them and you will find the exact same expressions repeated endlessly. Jordan wasn't simply redundant, he beat us to death with the same series of words. I'd bet he had whole descriptive passages coded as macros that he could insert over and over again.

 

I read the series, as I said, because Jordan is ( so far ) the only author with the chutzpah to attempt to fill in the blanks in the Eddas. A more complete and cohesive version of Ragnarrok fascinates me. Being beaten to death with the ( sad ) truth that none of us recognize our own failings as much as we should, doesn't help with either the completeness of the tale nor its cohesion. It just makes the tale longer and more tedious than it needs to be.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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I really don't see the point in picking apart every sentence BS has written and comparing it to RJ's. Enjoy the ending. It's the only one we're going to get.

 

Yep, completely agree....but then, what else is there to do around here once its all over ;)

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If I remember correctly she hit Rand twice. (Don't have the books to reference) Once over balefire, witch in my mind is a pretty reasonable way of teaching a new channeler the dangers of a weave that nearly unravelled the pattern. Don't forget they were in a battle situation so she could hardly sit him down and patently explain the dangers of balefire. No, the time called for a short, sharp, shock and that's what he got.

 

Slapping someone in the middle of a battle with killer fog, does not seem like a particularly good idea to me. It doesn't matter that he used balefire. She can get back to him on that after they're safe. As it it, her slap caused Rand to have his back turned to Fain.

 

 

Ok maybe Cads should of waited until after the battle, then again maybe not. Don't forget that Balefire is a forbidden weave even among the AS, and she did not know how much Rand knew of it and the danger it poses.

But whether that was the time or not is debatable.

I disagree however that her slap caused him to have his back turned while Fain sliced him. Toram was freaking out and running away, Darlin realising who Rand was, was trying put himself between Rand and Caraline.

Bottom line is, if Rand would of done what he was told and not used the power there would of been no distraction.

 

Rand messed up, that's for sure.

 

Balefire in large amounts is dangerous, but it's not like anything could have happened at that moment, so I really think her "lesson" could have waited a little.

 

Once Toram ran away he became a non-factor. Darlin only "half-moved as if to place himself between Rand and Caraline". Considering how easely Cadsuane took control of the situation to begin with, she surely could have told Darlin to worry about that later. She didn't. Instead she "picked her way across the slope" slapped Rand and tried to tell what not to do. Rand's attention was then fully on her. If she had time to do that, then she had time to settle Darlin and tell to worry about Rand later. Darlin's not a fool, he's not Toram. Cadsuane was in charge, so she should have focused on what was important, and what was important right then, was getting the hell away from the fog.

 

Overall, my view of this incident is: first Rand messed up, then Cadsuane made it worse.

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I think one of the differences that causes some of the disconnect is RJ and BS's sense of humor. RJ was a bit more subtle. BS can be very witty at times, but others seems to be trying too hard. His sense of humor is a little much for me sometimes. it's a little... i don't know, (dare i say?) nerdy. I don't know how specifically, but there it is. Mat is a funny character. RJ wrote him some pretty humorous stuff. BS obviously (if you've read his other works) LOVES writing witty characters, (which sometimes he does very well. I'm actually a fan of his for the most part, despite the above criticism.) and i think he just went overboard with Mat and company.

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Bottom line is, if Rand would of done what he was told and not used the power there would of been no distraction.

 

I think a large part of the problems with Cadsuane is that she (and MANY other in the series) think Rand should be TOLD what to do, instead of ADVISED. Remember that this was the breakthrough that Moiraine had with him, that wisdom was imparted to Egwene, and no other Aes Sedai (aside from Nyneave in her own way) seem to understand.

 

It's not just that Cadsuane is a bully, its that ALL Aes Sedai in the series are bullies. They are, regardless of whether they hit someone, or use the power on them, or manipulate them, bullying everyone around them. Every time one of the Edmond fielders meets up with a new Aes Sedai, they immediately try to take control - and are always completely floored when they aren't unequivocally listened to. The scene where Galina meets up with Perrin really drove that home to me - though you see it with Mat in his chapters escaping Ebou Dar as well.

 

I know there's a lot of love of the Cadsuane character - and I agree that she's not one-dimensional, and she's incredibly well written. I think she royally screwed up dealing with Rand - and her adaptability was completely off base with him. I don't think she was irrational, and I think she truly was doing what was write to bring Rand around.

 

But the whole point of her character was that her utter and complete failure, caused Rand to be brought around. The Cadsuane comeuppance scene I think was less about her, and more about Tam. RJ would have written it more subtly for sure, but I think the essence of that scene is what RJ wanted. Cadsuane feeling like she failed for the last time losing control, and the reader seeing the strength and calmness of Tam in the face of that confrontation after seeing what meddling has done to his son.

 

It really adds a lot of weight to what Rand says later - that the difference in he and Lews Therin is how they were brought up - and that's because of Tam.

 

I know that is a scene brought up as a failure of BS, but I think it was a great scene.

 

Another minor point - bloody ashes was brought up but not "Saidared". I thought this was weird as well - until I re-read a scene in the Tarasin Palace from Mat's PoV where he said something to the effect that he wondered whether the two sisters would try and "Out Aes Sedai each other". It is a VERY minor leap to go from that verb-ization, to turning Saidar into a verb. Sure there's no direct precedence, but there can always be new material in a book - the same descriptions and idioms get old after a while.

 

I did read about a vulture once in the last 2 books and was a little surprised however - I don't recall (but there's a lot of material) and vultures showing up previously.

 

 

Your right of course that AS always expect others to do as there told, comes from centuries of people doing exactly that.

 

Maybe the Tam/Cads scene is a bad example of the breaks from character in Mr Sandersons books and not one I brought up.

 

My main gripe is over Mat. He is my favourite character in the series and some of his scenes in the last two books, just read WRONG to me.

Now I'm sorry about that and I'm not saying BS is a bad writer or someone else could of done better, but in all honesty if asked do I rate them( the new books) to be on par previous books I would have to say I don't.

Now I don't bear Mr Sanderson any I'll will or malice and if AMoL is a success I will be one of the first to congratulate him.

But I'm getting fed up with it being hinted at by some people (not you) that we who grouse about these issues are just some sort of serial complainers who would moan about anything BS put on paper. That is not the case I feel that we are well with in our rights as fans to discuss these issues in a thread like this.

 

Hope aMoL does not have these issues and leaves me satisfied, if my standards seem too high for some people its just because I love the series.

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If I remember correctly she hit Rand twice. (Don't have the books to reference) Once over balefire, witch in my mind is a pretty reasonable way of teaching a new channeler the dangers of a weave that nearly unravelled the pattern. Don't forget they were in a battle situation so she could hardly sit him down and patently explain the dangers of balefire. No, the time called for a short, sharp, shock and that's what he got.

 

Slapping someone in the middle of a battle with killer fog, does not seem like a particularly good idea to me. It doesn't matter that he used balefire. She can get back to him on that after they're safe. As it it, her slap caused Rand to have his back turned to Fain.

 

 

Ok maybe Cads should of waited until after the battle, then again maybe not. Don't forget that Balefire is a forbidden weave even among the AS, and she did not know how much Rand knew of it and the danger it poses.

But whether that was the time or not is debatable.

I disagree however that her slap caused him to have his back turned while Fain sliced him. Toram was freaking out and running away, Darlin realising who Rand was, was trying put himself between Rand and Caraline.

Bottom line is, if Rand would of done what he was told and not used the power there would of been no distraction.

 

Rand messed up, that's for sure.

 

Balefire in large amounts is dangerous, but it's not like anything could have happened at that moment, so I really think her "lesson" could have waited a little.

 

Once Toram ran away he became a non-factor. Darlin only "half-moved as if to place himself between Rand and Caraline". Considering how easely Cadsuane took control of the situation to begin with, she surely could have told Darlin to worry about that later. She didn't. Instead she "picked her way across the slope" slapped Rand and tried to tell what not to do. Rand's attention was then fully on her. If she had time to do that, then she had time to settle Darlin and tell to worry about Rand later. Darlin's not a fool, he's not Toram. Cadsuane was in charge, so she should have focused on what was important, and what was important right then, was getting the hell away from the fog.

 

Overall, my view of this incident is: first Rand messed up, then Cadsuane made it worse.

 

 

Agreed Cads could of handled it better. But you can hardly blame her for not suspecting Fain was going to try to kill Rand just then.

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Clearly we are not reading the same books. Jordan is nothing if not verbose and redundant. Pick any two books from the series go through them and you will find the exact same expressions repeated endlessly. Jordan wasn't simply redundant, he beat us to death with the same series of words. I'd bet he had whole descriptive passages coded as macros that he could insert over and over again.

 

I read the series, as I said, because Jordan is ( so far ) the only author with the chutzpah to attempt to fill in the blanks in the Eddas. A more complete and cohesive version of Ragnarrok fascinates me. Being beaten to death with the ( sad ) truth that none of us recognize our own failings as much as we should, doesn't help with either the completeness of the tale nor its cohesion. It just makes the tale longer and more tedious than it needs to be.

 

As anyone that has read my posts can see, I’m not an author. I don’t get paid for transferring my thoughts and ideas to paper or ether. The only poignant item I’ve ever written was a eulogy – and most don’t want to read or hear something like that. I say the above to lead into this: I didn’t communicate my thoughts well, especially in the post you quote. Virtually every time I post I think of something afterwards that would have made it clearer or briefer. Sometimes I realize that I strayed entirely from what I originally wanted to say. On top of all of that, I tend to ramble.

 

Judging by what you wrote, you (and Suttree as well) think I’m trying to persuade you or others towards my own opinion of RJ’s writing style. This was not then and still is not the case. I admit now after thinking objectively on it that I felt the need to defend RJ, to speak IN FAVOR of him; due to the tone you took in your posts- and because I feel a kind of bond with RJ; I also served in wartime. However I see now that my defense of his work made me a “Homer”.

 

So I will now take special care to try and say precisely what my thoughts are. We are reading / did read the same books; I am just much more willing to put up with things that you apparently are not (at least without a lot of complaining). The truth for me is that I enjoyed the story he envisioned, put to paper, and continues to tell through Brandon. The degree to which I enjoyed the story made it easy for me to forgive him for his failings in ‘prose’. I came to view these failings as his idiosyncrasies. I also forgave him for his long interludes into some side plots that were on the whole, uninteresting to me. I dismissed these as RJ simply falling so in love with the world he created, and wanting to continue to dwell there beyond what he knew or should have known to be critically prudent.

 

My viewing these failings as forgivable was helped to a great extent by the fact that I was able to read through the series the first time without interruption. I only found WOT in July of last year, I didn’t have the frustration of extended waits between books.

 

For me overall, his virtues as a writer FAR outweigh his failings as one. I can easily say that his grand story of good vs. evil, his technically sound tactical scenes (lent authentic weight through having attended the Citadel and his service in the US Army in wartime), his inclusion of human failings and mistakes, his ability to write scenes that manipulated my emotions and including copious amounts of these scenes, and many other things I consider to be excellent virtues in an author virtually negate (for me) the overuse of the same descriptions and his other failings.

 

It’s also easy for me to continue enjoying – to very nearly the same degree that I enjoyed those written by RJ himself- the books that Brandon has taken from notes to published works. This is because I know that they still hold RJ’s creativity within them. Brandon’s handling of this and his own idiosyncrasies have not changed my love for the story that RJ introduced to us. His work in TGS and TOM have not turned me against him, so I will read some of his personal works in time, I am sure.

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Frankly, anyone who considers RJ's prose to be anything below top tier has no idea what they're talking about IMO. I have read many other authors and there are many distinct differences in style to consider, but I have yet to read an author that can paint words on the page with such a wide ranging vocabulary as RJ while maintaining such a fluid and immersive story.

 

Nobody is perfect though, and you can pull out reasons to criticize any work. A good many people seem to think that RJ is repetitive...I have never found that to be the case myself. Do I notice repetitions if I pay attention and try to look for them? Certainly. But I actually enjoy the repetitions that occur and don't consider any repetitions to be determinetal to the story or to the quality of the writing. It is important to recognize that a good many repetitions that occur in the story (explaining how the OP works for example), exist only at the onset of each new book so as to make the books somewhat independent and a new reader is not completely lost if he doesn't start the series with EoTW. As I am slowly rereading the story I have found instances where he is overly descriptive to the point where I begin to lose my focus and patience, but I have tried to take note of these instances and they do seem to be very few (at least so far...I am on book 7 currently of my reread).

 

I think that it is important to note differences in style from differences in quality and ability when comparing authors. An example of a difference of style would be comparing GRRM and RJ. RJs writings are near poetry compared to GRRM, and he paints a picture of each scene in your mind that can hardly be improved on. GRRM uses the absence of description and the edge of simplicity to emphasize the scenes and drive home the starkness of each and every event. Is he a high quality author? Absolutely. Yet his writing is hardly comparable to RJ because they write with an entirely different style. One is a sketch artist and the other is a painter, yet they are both masters. Now an example of a difference in quality of the author rather than style would be RJ vs Brandon Sanderson. They both clearly have the same style of writing (BS has admitted that RJ influenced his writing tremendously) yet one is much more fluid, graceful, and includes a vastly wider vocabulary.

 

It seems to be a common theme to just casually backhand RJ off into the annals of "great story, mediocre author", but I think that is absolutely unfair and a complete mistake. I am not making the case that RJ was the greatest author ever to live, but I certainly am saying he would not be out of place standing in their company. Assuming that we are judging the capabilities and talents of the author and not the historical significance or acceptance of their work. WoT will never be another Huckleberry Finn, but that doesn't mean that RJ couldn't have written Huck Finn as good as or better than Mark Twain.

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Sanderson butchered these books. Props to him for completing the story, but the quality of his writing is horrid. It is especially poor when comparing it to RJ.

You make it sound like RJ was someone at the Nabokov or Faulkner level when he was nowhere close.

 

Your examples of Sanderson's "sheer laugh out loud terribleness" doesn't seem such to me at all. It's far from great, but decent enough writing.

 

The fact that you don't seem to even understand some of the examples that I pointed out leads me to conclude that you are in no position to qualify the statement that RJ is not even close to Faulkner or Nabokob as an author. Just randomly picking two famous and respected authors from history and announcing that RJ is nowhere close to them is a pretty silly way to prove your point. How about instead of trying to say RJ was not a world famous and historical author you comment on Sanderon's writing and give examples of how it is equal to Robert Jordans?

I do not think that you helped your arguement here. So, if he disagrees with your opinion of BS's writing ability, he is too stupid to be in a position to qualify his statement? Are you sure your name isn't "Terry Goodkind"?

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It seems to be a common theme to just casually backhand RJ off into the annals of "great story, mediocre author", but I think that is absolutely unfair and a complete mistake. I am not making the case that RJ was the greatest author ever to live, but I certainly am saying he would not be out of place standing in their company. Assuming that we are judging the capabilities and talents of the author and not the historical significance or acceptance of their work. WoT will never be another Huckleberry Finn, but that doesn't mean that RJ couldn't have written Huck Finn as good as or better than Mark Twain.

 

While he is most definitely in that fantasy top tier, are you saying RJ has a place alongside some of the greatest authors outside of the genre? Look I love the WoT as much as anyone but that isn't even close to being true. Only counting American authors you start talking Twain or more recently McCarthy, Roth, and DeLillo and it is just an entirely different class.

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Frankly, anyone who considers RJ's prose to be anything below top tier has no idea what they're talking about IMO. I have read many other authors and there are many distinct differences in style to consider, but I have yet to read an author that can paint words on the page with such a wide ranging vocabulary as RJ while maintaining such a fluid and immersive story.

 

Your arguement here is if someone disagrees with you, they don't know what they are talking about. I infer nothing from these points of yours besides that fact that if someone disagrees with you, you do not have a lot of respect for them. Writing is like music; some will love it, some will hate it. But that doesn't mean anything about them personally, besides their tastes in art.

 

Many many people have disagreed with me here on DM, but I personally do not think that reflects on their knowledge of the topic nor their intelligence. They just disagree with me.

 

~EDIT again for spelling. Sorry.

Edited by Dreggs Morlock
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But I'm getting fed up with it being hinted at by some people (not you) that we who grouse about these issues are just some sort of serial complainers who would moan about anything BS put on paper.

That's because some people get very defensive when others point out flaws in something they like. They seem to think criticism implies they are wrong to enjoy the book without reservation, and so they try to dismiss that criticism by attacking the critic. There's a pretty blatant undercurrent of that in some of the comments here.

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