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Other than some Mat scenes I didn't see much of a difference.

 

I actually liked how the plot really started moving again.

 

As for main events that we've been waiting for forever(like ToG), I just don't think they will ever live up to what we had in our minds, thinking about them for so long, regardless of who wrote them.

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I love how "plot gratification" is a bad thing. You realize he's not attempting to fake a historical text right? I personally like to be gratified when I read a fictional book, the alternative would be a lack of gratification, which I guess is exactly what we got from books 7 through 10... which most people complain about. Is that what you want/expect? The comparisons of BS to RJ as if RJ was some pulitzer prize winning author is ridiculous. No one they'd have gotten would have been the same, so I don't see the point of Suttree complaining every time this topic comes up. I mean if you got the best writer on earth, whoever it is you think that is, you'd still complain because things are not the same, not approached in the same way, and were not envisioned the way _you_ had previously envisioned it.

 

See if RJ made a reveal that Mat had become big-headed, you might be sad, but think "Oh, I guess this is the way it goes..." But if any other author were to make any changes, "Well that's bias! How dare he change things! And why is there no character development!" It's mind boggling.

 

I'm sad Suttree, in his opinion, seems to hate everything with a passion, but I think WOT has been refreshed, for the most part, it's certainly not perfect, I can't remember when it ever was. I'd have liked more time spent on the books sure, but I think we're pretty damn lucky for what we've got from Brandon.

 

In my own opinion, Talmanes was way better, Mat is fine. Sure he's less "I'm a dufus", since he's had queens and empresses and the like fascinated and obsessed with him. I think it would be pretty stupid if mat was still bitching after being a Queen's play thing, married to an empress, successful with the ladies in the bars throughout the series, and clearly the greatest general in the world. Yet you expect him to be the same kid you loved in book 1? As for the letter, I'm sure most of you are just mad your precious Mat is portrayed as not being able to do something for once. And obviously that must show a writer bias, couldn't possibly be that he felt it was appropriate for a character who doesn't seem to care to improve himself on his own to actually not be a legendary poet too. Little blunt? Little too light? Probably, but the outrage seems excessive, and given how beloved Mat is, the reaction is probably equally overrated.

 

And of course, there's the odd assumptions that Brandon writes these books and no one else reads it until it's published, so lets make sure if we're blaming Brandon for anything, we're equally blaming Harriet and all of Team Jordan for letting these things you think are so awful slip by. No one seems to bring that up, just pick on the new guy.

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I love how "plot gratification" is a bad thing. You realize he's not attempting to fake a historical text right? I personally like to be gratified when I read a fictional book, the alternative would be a lack of gratification, which I guess is exactly what we got from books 7 through 10... which most people complain about. Is that what you want/expect? The comparisons of BS to RJ as if RJ was some pulitzer prize winning author is ridiculous. No one they'd have gotten would have been the same, so I don't see the point of Suttree complaining every time this topic comes up. I mean if you got the best writer on earth, whoever it is you think that is, you'd still complain because things are not the same, not approached in the same way, and were not envisioned the way _you_ had previously envisioned it.

 

See if RJ made a reveal that Mat had become big-headed, you might be sad, but think "Oh, I guess this is the way it goes..." But if any other author were to make any changes, "Well that's bias! How dare he change things! And why is there no character development!" It's mind boggling.

 

I'm sad Suttree, in his opinion, seems to hate everything with a passion, but I think WOT has been refreshed, for the most part, it's certainly not perfect, I can't remember when it ever was. I'd have liked more time spent on the books sure, but I think we're pretty damn lucky for what we've got from Brandon.

 

In my own opinion, Talmanes was way better, Mat is fine. Sure he's less "I'm a dufus", since he's had queens and empresses and the like fascinated and obsessed with him. I think it would be pretty stupid if mat was still bitching after being a Queen's play thing, married to an empress, successful with the ladies in the bars throughout the series, and clearly the greatest general in the world. Yet you expect him to be the same kid you loved in book 1? As for the letter, I'm sure most of you are just mad your precious Mat is portrayed as not being able to do something for once. And obviously that must show a writer bias, couldn't possibly be that he felt it was appropriate for a character who doesn't seem to care to improve himself on his own to actually not be a legendary poet too. Little blunt? Little too light? Probably, but the outrage seems excessive, and given how beloved Mat is, the reaction is probably equally overrated.

 

And of course, there's the odd assumptions that Brandon writes these books and no one else reads it until it's published, so lets make sure if we're blaming Brandon for anything, we're equally blaming Harriet and all of Team Jordan for letting these things you think are so awful slip by. No one seems to bring that up, just pick on the new guy.

 

GREAT Post!!! I disagree with much - though not all - of it, but I always enjoy.a good, long rant and seeing a poster have the stones to post one. Well done.

 

 

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I love how "plot gratification" is a bad thing. You realize he's not attempting to fake a historical text right? I personally like to be gratified when I read a fictional book, the alternative would be a lack of gratification, which I guess is exactly what we got from books 7 through 10... which most people complain about. Is that what you want/expect? The comparisons of BS to RJ as if RJ was some pulitzer prize winning author is ridiculous. No one they'd have gotten would have been the same, so I don't see the point of Suttree complaining every time this topic comes up. I mean if you got the best writer on earth, whoever it is you think that is, you'd still complain because things are not the same, not approached in the same way, and were not envisioned the way _you_ had previously envisioned it.

 

See if RJ made a reveal that Mat had become big-headed, you might be sad, but think "Oh, I guess this is the way it goes..." But if any other author were to make any changes, "Well that's bias! How dare he change things! And why is there no character development!" It's mind boggling.

 

I'm sad Suttree, in his opinion, seems to hate everything with a passion, but I think WOT has been refreshed, for the most part, it's certainly not perfect, I can't remember when it ever was. I'd have liked more time spent on the books sure, but I think we're pretty damn lucky for what we've got from Brandon.

 

In my own opinion, Talmanes was way better, Mat is fine. Sure he's less "I'm a dufus", since he's had queens and empresses and the like fascinated and obsessed with him. I think it would be pretty stupid if mat was still bitching after being a Queen's play thing, married to an empress, successful with the ladies in the bars throughout the series, and clearly the greatest general in the world. Yet you expect him to be the same kid you loved in book 1? As for the letter, I'm sure most of you are just mad your precious Mat is portrayed as not being able to do something for once. And obviously that must show a writer bias, couldn't possibly be that he felt it was appropriate for a character who doesn't seem to care to improve himself on his own to actually not be a legendary poet too. Little blunt? Little too light? Probably, but the outrage seems excessive, and given how beloved Mat is, the reaction is probably equally overrated.

 

And of course, there's the odd assumptions that Brandon writes these books and no one else reads it until it's published, so lets make sure if we're blaming Brandon for anything, we're equally blaming Harriet and all of Team Jordan for letting these things you think are so awful slip by. No one seems to bring that up, just pick on the new guy.

 

Yeah, basically agree with everything here.

 

Nicely said.

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I love how "plot gratification" is a bad thing. You realize he's not attempting to fake a historical text right? I personally like to be gratified when I read a fictional book, the alternative would be a lack of gratification, which I guess is exactly what we got from books 7 through 10... which most people complain about. Is that what you want/expect? The comparisons of BS to RJ as if RJ was some pulitzer prize winning author is ridiculous. No one they'd have gotten would have been the same, so I don't see the point of Suttree complaining every time this topic comes up. I mean if you got the best writer on earth, whoever it is you think that is, you'd still complain because things are not the same, not approached in the same way, and were not envisioned the way _you_ had previously envisioned it.

 

See if RJ made a reveal that Mat had become big-headed, you might be sad, but think "Oh, I guess this is the way it goes..." But if any other author were to make any changes, "Well that's bias! How dare he change things! And why is there no character development!" It's mind boggling.

 

I'm sad Suttree, in his opinion, seems to hate everything with a passion, but I think WOT has been refreshed, for the most part, it's certainly not perfect, I can't remember when it ever was. I'd have liked more time spent on the books sure, but I think we're pretty damn lucky for what we've got from Brandon.

 

In my own opinion, Talmanes was way better, Mat is fine. Sure he's less "I'm a dufus", since he's had queens and empresses and the like fascinated and obsessed with him. I think it would be pretty stupid if mat was still bitching after being a Queen's play thing, married to an empress, successful with the ladies in the bars throughout the series, and clearly the greatest general in the world. Yet you expect him to be the same kid you loved in book 1? As for the letter, I'm sure most of you are just mad your precious Mat is portrayed as not being able to do something for once. And obviously that must show a writer bias, couldn't possibly be that he felt it was appropriate for a character who doesn't seem to care to improve himself on his own to actually not be a legendary poet too. Little blunt? Little too light? Probably, but the outrage seems excessive, and given how beloved Mat is, the reaction is probably equally overrated.

 

And of course, there's the odd assumptions that Brandon writes these books and no one else reads it until it's published, so lets make sure if we're blaming Brandon for anything, we're equally blaming Harriet and all of Team Jordan for letting these things you think are so awful slip by. No one seems to bring that up, just pick on the new guy.

 

VERY well said. Amen.

 

There is nobody who could possibly be more disappointed with how long and overblown the series had become than I am. I'm still angry that I only took a ten year break from buying or reading any of the books. I needed for it to be fifteen years. But silly me, about the time Crossroads of Twilight ( without a doubt the WORST book in the series and written entirely by Jordan ) came out, I naively thought, after ten years, he MUST be about to get to the point. How wrong I was.

 

If you are a reader who is totally fascinated by the characters, get up out of your chair and go meet some real people. Books aren't about people, they're about what some people do. Situations and how they get handled. You know, the plot. The heroes need to be sympathetic and decently portrayed, but the PLOT is the thing. The story. What happens. Not who wore what.

 

Jordan sucked at plot. Sanderson is very good at plot. We are exceptionally lucky we have him.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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I love how "plot gratification" is a bad thing. You realize he's not attempting to fake a historical text right? I personally like to be gratified when I read a fictional book, the alternative would be a lack of gratification, which I guess is exactly what we got from books 7 through 10... which most people complain about. Is that what you want/expect? The comparisons of BS to RJ as if RJ was some pulitzer prize winning author is ridiculous. No one they'd have gotten would have been the same, so I don't see the point of Suttree complaining every time this topic comes up. I mean if you got the best writer on earth, whoever it is you think that is, you'd still complain because things are not the same, not approached in the same way, and were not envisioned the way _you_ had previously envisioned it.

 

See if RJ made a reveal that Mat had become big-headed, you might be sad, but think "Oh, I guess this is the way it goes..." But if any other author were to make any changes, "Well that's bias! How dare he change things! And why is there no character development!" It's mind boggling.

 

I'm sad Suttree, in his opinion, seems to hate everything with a passion, but I think WOT has been refreshed, for the most part, it's certainly not perfect, I can't remember when it ever was. I'd have liked more time spent on the books sure, but I think we're pretty damn lucky for what we've got from Brandon.

 

In my own opinion, Talmanes was way better, Mat is fine. Sure he's less "I'm a dufus", since he's had queens and empresses and the like fascinated and obsessed with him. I think it would be pretty stupid if mat was still bitching after being a Queen's play thing, married to an empress, successful with the ladies in the bars throughout the series, and clearly the greatest general in the world. Yet you expect him to be the same kid you loved in book 1? As for the letter, I'm sure most of you are just mad your precious Mat is portrayed as not being able to do something for once. And obviously that must show a writer bias, couldn't possibly be that he felt it was appropriate for a character who doesn't seem to care to improve himself on his own to actually not be a legendary poet too. Little blunt? Little too light? Probably, but the outrage seems excessive, and given how beloved Mat is, the reaction is probably equally overrated.

 

And of course, there's the odd assumptions that Brandon writes these books and no one else reads it until it's published, so lets make sure if we're blaming Brandon for anything, we're equally blaming Harriet and all of Team Jordan for letting these things you think are so awful slip by. No one seems to bring that up, just pick on the new guy.

 

 

No ones saying BS is a terrible writer, or doesn't appreciate him completing the series. People were just commenting on the different styles between BS and RJ.

I personally think BS has gone over the top with Mats class clownish behaviour and outrageous remarks, RJ's Mat was always a rascal, but his wit was more subtle.

I don't think its right to have a go at people because their airing their criticism and expressing their views after all isn't that what Dragonmounts all about?

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Jordan sucked at plot. Sanderson is very good at plot. We are exceptionally lucky we have him.

 

Bob you are very clearly confusing plot with plot gratification.

 

From dictionary.com:

 

plot

   [plot] Show IPA noun, verb, plot·ted, plot·ting.

 

noun

1.

a secret plan or scheme to accomplish some purpose, especially a hostile, unlawful, or evil purpose: a plot to overthrow the government.

 

2.

Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.

 

The story is the plot. When the plot reaches it's conclusion, the plot is gratified.

 

Jordan is one of the masters when it came to plot. He simply miscalculated how much his readers were interested in the subplots, or more likely, he was so fascinated by his world that he wanted to dwell in it much longer than another writer would.

 

Brandon is a very good writer, but more importantly, in many ways he is lucky. He took over the series when there was little else besides plot gratification to write. Remember also that many of the storylines/arcs were concluded in the last book that RJ authored entirely, Knife of Dreams.

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Jordan sucked at plot. Sanderson is very good at plot. We are exceptionally lucky we have him.

 

Bob you are very clearly confusing plot with plot gratification.

 

From dictionary.com:

 

plot

   [plot] Show IPA noun, verb, plot·ted, plot·ting.

 

noun

1.

a secret plan or scheme to accomplish some purpose, especially a hostile, unlawful, or evil purpose: a plot to overthrow the government.

 

2.

Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.

 

The story is the plot. When the plot reaches it's conclusion, the plot is gratified.

 

Jordan is one of the masters when it came to plot. He simply miscalculated how much his readers were interested in the subplots, or more likely, he was so fascinated by his world that he wanted to dwell in it much longer than another writer would.

 

Brandon is a very good writer, but more importantly, in many ways he is lucky. He took over the series when there was little else besides plot gratification to write. Remember also that many of the storylines/arcs were concluded in the last book that RJ authored entirely, Knife of Dreams.

 

No mistake. Look at your own definition 2.

Also called storyline. the plan, scheme, or main story of a literary or dramatic work, as a play, novel, or short story.
That's what books are about. Fashion magazines are about who wore what.

 

Jordan was all about who wore what. Sanderson is about who did what.

 

Jordan wrote a major travelogue combined with a minor sociological comparison of the mores of the places he took us to.

 

Sanderson is writing a story about a ( mythologically ) meaningful event in the history of all humankind.

 

I give Jordan full marks for chutzpah. Nobody else has even attempted to fill in the blanks of the very incomplete Eddas. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, he suffered a failure of imagination, probably by trying to be over-specific about everything.

 

Sanderson gives us a detailed outline and leaves room for us to exercise our own imaginations. That is a VERY GOOD thing in a writer. Sadly, it was something that Jordan never learned.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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I love how "plot gratification" is a bad thing. You realize he's not attempting to fake a historical text right? I personally like to be gratified when I read a fictional book, the alternative would be a lack of gratification, which I guess is exactly what we got from books 7 through 10... which most people complain about. Is that what you want/expect? The comparisons of BS to RJ as if RJ was some pulitzer prize winning author is ridiculous. No one they'd have gotten would have been the same, so I don't see the point of Suttree complaining every time this topic comes up. I mean if you got the best writer on earth, whoever it is you think that is, you'd still complain because things are not the same, not approached in the same way, and were not envisioned the way _you_ had previously envisioned it.

 

See if RJ made a reveal that Mat had become big-headed, you might be sad, but think "Oh, I guess this is the way it goes..." But if any other author were to make any changes, "Well that's bias! How dare he change things! And why is there no character development!" It's mind boggling.

 

I'm sad Suttree, in his opinion, seems to hate everything with a passion, but I think WOT has been refreshed, for the most part, it's certainly not perfect, I can't remember when it ever was. I'd have liked more time spent on the books sure, but I think we're pretty damn lucky for what we've got from Brandon.

 

In my own opinion, Talmanes was way better, Mat is fine. Sure he's less "I'm a dufus", since he's had queens and empresses and the like fascinated and obsessed with him. I think it would be pretty stupid if mat was still bitching after being a Queen's play thing, married to an empress, successful with the ladies in the bars throughout the series, and clearly the greatest general in the world. Yet you expect him to be the same kid you loved in book 1? As for the letter, I'm sure most of you are just mad your precious Mat is portrayed as not being able to do something for once. And obviously that must show a writer bias, couldn't possibly be that he felt it was appropriate for a character who doesn't seem to care to improve himself on his own to actually not be a legendary poet too. Little blunt? Little too light? Probably, but the outrage seems excessive, and given how beloved Mat is, the reaction is probably equally overrated.

 

And of course, there's the odd assumptions that Brandon writes these books and no one else reads it until it's published, so lets make sure if we're blaming Brandon for anything, we're equally blaming Harriet and all of Team Jordan for letting these things you think are so awful slip by. No one seems to bring that up, just pick on the new guy.

 

No idea why I am being singled out here as I am far from the first or most prominent fan to have a problem with BS's prose in these last two books. Although I made it very clear in an earlier post how thankful I am that BS is finishing the series and even said quiet clearly "I am very thankful for the job BS has done. I think the time he has been giving to complete the first two books made the task near impossible. He has performed well under very difficult circumstances and we are lucky to have him." So not sure what part of that would be "picking on the new guy" and "hating everything with a passion". Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue(based on some of the theories Kael posts that wouldn't surprise me), but what is truly mind boggling is that we live in a time in which any critique is branded "hate".

 

I along with many others have held to the fact that BS was not giving the proper time by Tor or Team Jordan(by far the most prevalent theory so stop saying no one seems to bring it up) and this combined with his writing style led to to the end result being rushed. BS has even taken steps to change this in adding time and switching his revisions process to make sure they get aMoL "right". Not sure why Kael would try to disavow these issues when the author himself has addressed them. Even though RJ is a gifted author and his prose is unarguably superior to parts of TGS and ToM, I have critiqued his writing over the years as well. I have argued on DM that his work doesn't necessarily hold up outside of genre so please stop with the straw man in which I have made him out to be some untouchable master.

 

Somewhat funny that Kael is almost entirely missing the point here. Plot gratification in of itself is quite obviously not a bad thing. Relying on it to "pull the weight of the narrative" as Luckers said, most assuredly is. With the limited space and time in which BS was given to do his work we are sprinting from one thing to the next. Sometimes it works but occasionally it results in blunt prose and the characterization often suffers. With the change in authors quite clearly things will be different but that doesn't excuse unpolished writing. Also you act as if BS wrote books 7-10 there would have been some difference in the level of plot gratification which is quite humorous. It is just where we were at that time in the series arc, to compare the two is patently futile. KoD showed that RJ knew exactly what he was doing in terms of increasing the pace and getting us pointed in the right direction.

 

For the most part I enjoy fantasy that is not ruined by the fact that I have a Lit degree from a UC school and for me the verdict is very much still out on BS as a writer. So far IMO he simply has not been consistent enough to be placed on the same level as Martin, Jordan, Bakker, Rothfuss etc. I will say I am very much looking forward to his changing the revision process and being able to spend more time writing multiple drafts. In doing this I think aMoL will be his best work to date and once again I am of the opinion that we are very lucky to have him. Bottom line I judge the books based on merit. The fact that I am gratified to read all these story lines RJ has plotted out coming to a head has little to do with the quality of writing. I believe that Luckers is actually turning in a critique of BS's work to Team Jordan and it is precisely those types of things that show respect and will make aMoL better in the long run. It would be dishonest and doing BS(and all of us really) a disservice to blindly praise his work just because it is the WoT.

Edited by Suttree
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That's what books are about. Fashion magazines are about who wore what.

 

Jordan was all about who wore what. Sanderson is about who did what.

 

Jordan wrote a major travelogue combined with a minor sociological comparison of the mores of the places he took us to.

 

Sanderson is writing a story about a ( mythologically ) meaningful event in the history of all humankind.

 

Bob, do you realize that every plot point and plot resolution that Brandon has put in the books was from RJs outline? Judging by what you wrote in your last two posts in this thread I'd say either that you don't or that you're ignoring that fact.

 

Brandon's job was to take the series to it's conclusion, it wasn't to have to continue fleshing out Randland by introducing new story arcs. RJ had already expanded the story as far as he intended.

 

If you look at the series as a whole, RJ started the race and got way ahead of all the competition. He then decided to take a bit of a stroll through the pit area, probably thinking that he could afford the respite. Once he really got back on the track, hen got to within 3 laps of the finish line. Brandon now gets to run those last three laps and reap the benefits. And I'm happy for Brandon for that, just as I am happy that I'm getting to read the final chapters of this epic. But to say

"Jordan was all about who wore what."
is the same as saying that RJ never provided gratification. The first 6 or 7 books in the series could almost stand by themselves outside of the series, because each one has a clear resolution of the main story for it.

 

RJs style never really changed throughout the series. He had a knack for writing clear, brief prose that richly described the subject scenes without becoming verbose or redundant. RJs richly detailed world, along with his plot are what hooked me onto the series. In books 8, 9 and 10, he didn't provide nearly as much plot gratification as he did in the rest of his books. Those books seem to be the ones that most people complain about, and I'm guessing you are basing your poor opinion of him mostly from those.

 

Why does someone who so clearly dislikes RJs style ever read his works, after sampling it?

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I believe that Luckers is actually turning in a critique of BS's work to Team Jordan and it is precisely those types of things that show respect and will make aMoL better in the long run. It would be dishonest and doing BS(and all of us really) a disservice to blindly praise his work just because it is the WoT.

 

Not to Team Jordan, to Brandon himself, at his [unsolicited] request. And it has already been turned in, some weeks ago.

 

Brandon's writing has flaws and strengths. Allowing appreciation for the strength to blind us to the flaws does no one a service--not when Brandon has stated that he firmly holds fan response as the guage by which he judges his efforts. To do so serves only to say that we do not respect Brandon as a writer, that we in fact put up with him out of gratitude for the plot gratification he grants us.

 

I for one will not so insult the man.

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When Brandon took over WoT, I was initially of the opinion that—as the saying goes—we shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth. It seemed unfair and ungrateful to criticize flaws in his writing considering what a difficult task he had ahead of him. Later on I found myself wishing that Brandon had received more constructive criticism from his beta readers and the audience after TGS. Brandon is a professional writer, and we're not doing him any favors by treating him with kid gloves. If I were Brandon, I would want to know which things needed improvement so that future books would get even better.

 

Not to Team Jordan, to Brandon himself, at his [unsolicited] request. And it has already been turned in, some weeks ago.

If you don't mind me asking, what did you write about?

Edited by sleepinghour
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RJs style never really changed throughout the series. He had a knack for writing clear, brief prose that richly described the subject scenes without becoming verbose or redundant.

 

I disagree the hi-lighted word. RJ was in no way brief, ever. That's my biggest complaint, aside from the repetitive behaviors in his characters; otherwise I really enjoyed his writing. I got the point about crossing the arms under the breasts the first hundred times you used that description, as an example. He really did know how to paint a picture of his world that kept me fascinated and coming back for more. I've ready every book save TGS and TOM at least 15 times at this point.

 

I'm not saying Brandon is perfect. I just don't have a problem with most of what people have complained about to date, and I can't think of anyone else who would have done better with it. I also am of the opinion a lot of the complaints are overblown and that we will find out after the fact that at least some of the things we complained the loudest about are actually things RJ had already written.

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I have been getting tired of the wait for books before RJ's untimely passing. I was never disappointed in the books, but I grew impatient and desirous of being able to finish the series I started over a decade ago.

 

I am (now) a huge fan of Brandon Sanderson's own work from my enjoyment of The Gathering Storm. It does lack the subtlety of Jordan's writing, and leaves more to the imagination (thus painting less clear pictures of the world). I don't fault Sanderson for this, I think he's done an exceptional job with the task he's been given.

 

To be honest, I think he's done a better job given the constraints than RJ could have. I don't think RJ could have finished the series in 1 million words (expected length of the final 3 books). I know he wanted to finish it in one more book, I just don't think that could have happened. I don't think he could have finished it in a way that would have been satisfying and true to his style in 3 books. I think it would have taken at least 5 books for Jordan to finish the series with the same care and attention to detail that he took with his previous books.

 

So even if RJ had finished the series himself, but forced himself to contain it all in the same 3 books - we would still say that it feels rushed, and lacks some subtlety and handles things more bluntly. Because those things would have been required to complete the amount of plot left to wrap up.

 

Taking that into account - I believe that Sanderson changed the narration largely with characterization. I don't feel that it is too egregious - I only noticed it with 2 characters (Mat and Elayne), and it was more like reading an impersonation, or an impression by a comedian of the actual characters. Some of their traits exaggerated. In reading them in the books - I was able to attribute these two the state of mind the characters were in at the time. Mat becomes married, and Elayne being pregnant and both of those would cause some change in personality. These could have been toned down a bit and the actions of the characters likely would have felt more congruous.

 

My problem I think with true criticism is that I truly enjoyed the changes. They don't feel write within the larger work perhaps, but I enjoyed them. The large number of plot completions, for me, was just a wonderful release. Things I've been waiting for years to finally read about. My enjoyment of them is, for sure, due to the painstaking way that RJ set them up - but the sweet release of the built up tension just washes over what minor complains I could have. I laughed at the letter, its not something RJ would have done, but I truly enjoyed it. When its all said and done, I would love to know what was truly RJ's and what was truly Sanderson's. That's not likely to happen, but I think it would be interesting to know. I can't tell the difference through the book - and I was fairly certain that RJ's work went in without rewrite - which means that Brandon Sanderson did a great job keeping with the tone of the books.

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What have i enjoyed..... no straightening of skirts.............. men getting a bit more of an upperhand instead of being browbeaten by a mere look!!!!!........... faster pace

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No ones saying BS is a terrible writer, or doesn't appreciate him completing the series. People were just commenting on the different styles between BS and RJ.

I personally think BS has gone over the top with Mats class clownish behaviour and outrageous remarks, RJ's Mat was always a rascal, but his wit was more subtle.

I don't think its right to have a go at people because their airing their criticism and expressing their views after all isn't that what Dragonmounts all about?

 

Commenting, or complaining? Because it sure feels like the latter. And I agree, that is what DM is about. It's also about me telling people how far overboard they've gone... as per usual. I didn't really disagree with anything, I just tempered and explained that much of the more heated criticisms are either not related to Brandon specifically, or way overblown.

 

No idea why I am being singled out here as I am far from the first or most prominent fan to have a problem with BS's prose in these last two books. Although I made it very clear in an earlier post how thankful I am that BS is finishing the series and even said quiet clearly "I am very thankful for the job BS has done. I think the time he has been giving to complete the first two books made the task near impossible. He has performed well under very difficult circumstances and we are lucky to have him." So not sure what part of that would be "picking on the new guy" and "hating everything with a passion". Maybe it's a reading comprehension issue(based on some of the theories Kael posts that wouldn't surprise me), but what is truly mind boggling is that we live in a time in which any critique is branded "hate".

Well there's your, "verdict is very much still out on BS as a writer" from below, and then your endorsement of Lucker's comment that basically says BS' writing process is incapable of making a good story. So I'm sorry if I don't feel your afterthought pleasantry doesn't hold as much weight as your consistent criticism over just about everything. Very few people have been able to compliment BS for anything without you trying to say, "well no, that's actually bad writing, I know because I'm so smart."

 

I along with many others have held to the fact that BS was not giving the proper time by Tor or Team Jordan(by far the most prevalent theory so stop saying no one seems to bring it up) and this combined with his writing style led to to the end result being rushed. BS has even taken steps to change this in adding time and switching his revisions process to make sure they get aMoL "right". Not sure why Kael would try to disavow these issues when the author himself has addressed them. Even though RJ is a gifted author and his prose is unarguably superior to parts of TGS and ToM, I have critiqued his writing over the years as well. I have argued on DM that his work doesn't necessarily hold up outside of genre so please stop with the straw man in which I have made him out to be some untouchable master.

RJ's prose is often painfully bland and overly drawn out. I understand you have a lit degree, but more words does not always equal better. It's not my fault I often fall asleep reading a Robin Hobb book, even if her prose is beautiful.

 

And yes, you have made RJ out to be an untouchable master relative to BS in these recent threads. You are not some well published author, what you said ages ago has just about zero relevance to what's being said today. If you spend the entire thread trashing BS, then what message do you think you're sending? Worse, it all reinforces hyperbolic negative opinions you never counter just because they might help your point. And you have always done that that. I will happily counter people who agree with me if I think they agree for wrong, or exaggerated reasons. You consistently use popular opinion, even when misguided, to try and add weight to your arguments. But I digress, I figured I'd point out your personal flaws, since you seem to like to footnote every response to me with something back handed.

 

Anyway, if you actually wished to be accurate, you would stop fighting everyone who liked something. Notice I didn't call Luckers out. That's mainly because his posts don't seem to be fighting a campaign to make sure we all understand how illegitimate a writer Sanderson is. Sorry, I know you dislike it when I use different words that mean what you say, so let me quote you instead, "verdict is still very much out on BS as a writer".

 

But you're thankful he's doing it right? Well, that makes it all good.

 

Somewhat funny that Kael is almost entirely missing the point here. Plot gratification in of itself is quite obviously not a bad thing. Relying on it to "pull the weight of the narrative" as Luckers said, most assuredly is. With the limited space and time in which BS was given to do his work we are sprinting from one thing to the next. Sometimes it works but occasionally it results in blunt prose and the characterization often suffers. With the change in authors quite clearly things will be different but that doesn't excuse unpolished writing. Also you act as if BS wrote books 7-10 there would have been some difference in the level of plot gratification which is quite humorous. It is just where we were at that time in the series arc, to compare the two is patently futile. KoD showed that RJ knew exactly what he was doing in terms of increasing the pace and getting us pointed in the right direction.

So RJ would have certainly done better than BS, even though there's no way to prove it. But BS, who you critisized for being too blunt and plot gratification-y, would have certainly not done better than RJ in a section that is often considered slow and dull, even though there's no proof of that either... right. I'm sure you're a great speller, but I think you should have expanded on that lit degree a bit.

 

For the most part I enjoy fantasy that is not ruined by the fact that I have a Lit degree from a UC school and for me the verdict is very much still out on BS as a writer. So far IMO he simply has not been consistent enough to be placed on the same level as Martin, Jordan, Bakker, Rothfuss etc. I will say I am very much looking forward to his changing the revision process and being able to spend more time writing multiple drafts. In doing this I think aMoL will be his best work to date and once again I am of the opinion that we are very lucky to have him. Bottom line I judge the books based on merit. The fact that I am gratified to read all these story lines RJ has plotted out coming to a head has little to do with the quality of writing. I believe that Luckers is actually turning in a critique of BS's work to Team Jordan and it is precisely those types of things that show respect and will make aMoL better in the long run. It would be dishonest and doing BS(and all of us really) a disservice to blindly praise his work just because it is the WoT.

So we're so stupid we're buying the coolaid. While you're skilled enough to understand what is truly good writing. I get it now. My apologies! You putting Jordan on the same level as Bakker and Rothfuss kinda proves my point again... That would be the pedestal I'm talking about.

 

"Bottom line I judge the books based on merit. The fact that I am gratified to read all these story lines RJ has plotted out coming to a head has little to do with the quality of writing." First, Luckers can pull off being critical without sounding like a pretentious ass. And I think he's even more critical than you are. Secondly, you complain about his take on the characters, which has nothing to do with the technical quality of the writing. So obviously you are not just judging based on merit of the writing.

 

Also, I don't believe I have denied any of the more technical criticisms, the informal turns of phrases that Brandon uses, the 'favourite' words, and even regarding Mat and the Letter I only suggest we greatly temper the hate which is obviously an overreaction to the change in a beloved character. For example, Luckers loves Cads, he noticed the differences, most people probably didn't because they don't care as much one way or the other. Well the opposite is going to happen with someone as loved as Mat is.

 

Not to Team Jordan, to Brandon himself, at his [unsolicited] request. And it has already been turned in, some weeks ago.

 

Brandon's writing has flaws and strengths. Allowing appreciation for the strength to blind us to the flaws does no one a service--not when Brandon has stated that he firmly holds fan response as the guage by which he judges his efforts. To do so serves only to say that we do not respect Brandon as a writer, that we in fact put up with him out of gratitude for the plot gratification he grants us.

 

I for one will not so insult the man.

 

I think we should be more balanced, and try to stay rational, even if someone's crazy might support your side. What are Brandon's strengths Luckers and Suttree? I think Luckers does a fine job by not arguing down anything good someone might have to say about Brandon's writing, which Suttree appears to feel the need to do. I hope AMoL is better because of the work Luckers has done, but he isn't on a crusade to convince everyone he's right, recognize his credentials to make that call, and make us understand that if you liked TGS and ToM you are somehow stupid, uneducated, or simple.

 

But it's ok, because he's grateful Brandon, questionably a professional writer at all, is fulfilling his regrettable, baser-instinct for plot gratification.

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...

 

Once again Kael's insecurities take center stage. Quite telling you are the single person bringing up "hate" in this thread. Thank you for showing us your true colors and ability to read posts with blinders on.

 

Secondly, you complain about his take on the characters, which has nothing to do with the technical quality of the writing. So obviously you are not just judging based on merit of the writing.

 

I'm sorry but what? How does poor characterization and an overly literal portrayal have nothing to do with the quality of writing? This was addressed in the quote I gave towards the start of the thread.

 

So RJ would have certainly done better than BS, even though there's no way to prove it. But BS, who you critisized for being too blunt and plot gratification-y, would have certainly not done better than RJ in a section that is often considered slow and dull, even though there's no proof of that either... right. I'm sure you're a great speller, but I think you should have expanded on that lit degree a bit.

 

You do realize having plot gratification in these recent books is not some magic skill of BS correct? It is where we are in the story arc, regardless of who writes it, that is something that will exist in TGS and ToM. For the last time plot gratification is not a negative. Relying on it at times instead of the writing to carry the weight of the narrative is.

 

Btw if you are going to quote me and use it as the crux for why I am on a campaign to smear BS as a writer. Why note use my words in context.

 

For the most part I enjoy fantasy that is not ruined by the fact that I have a Lit degree from a UC school and for me the verdict is very much still out on BS as a writer. So far IMO he simply has not been consistent enough to be placed on the same level as Martin, Jordan, Bakker, Rothfuss etc. I will say I am very much looking forward to his changing the revision process and being able to spend more time writing multiple drafts. In doing this I think aMoL will be his best work to date and once again I am of the opinion that we are very lucky to have him.

 

Combine that with...

 

I think the time he has been giving to complete the first two books made the task near impossible.

 

The quotes above clearly show that my "hate" has reached unassailable levels ehh? You have caught me out in my master plan to bring the man down. Well done sir. :rolleyes:

 

The truth is he is a young writer whose best work "IMO" has not been consistent enough "so far" to be placed in the top tier(hence verdict still out). You are welcome to your own opinion but your shrill protests and false accusations in attempting to invalidate mine do not paint you in that good of a light. Why would you think that my criticism is somehow an indictment on your smarts because you see things differently? I welcome various points of view and that's a big part of what makes debate so enjoyable on DM. Criticism is a sign of respect and comparisons given the circumstances, are unavoidable. Not sure why you are having such a difficult time with the concept.

 

Let me be clear. No one has ever said or implied BS is incapable of writing a good story. Although I admire the job BS has done, I will not allow strengths and my love of the WoT to gloss over flaws in his writing. Again the author himself has changed his process to address these very real issues. It does everyone a disservice to pretend they do not exist. Count me as one more person that will not insult him in that manner.

Edited by Suttree
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Holy Smoke, Kael, relax. Noone on this Board has ever ripped Brandon on a personal level - and if it had happened, it would have been justifiably shot down immediately. This Board also - even among Sanderson's harshest critics - is consistently effusive in its expressions of appreciation to Brandon for finishing WOT. This is proper. I echo this. I've done so in this very thread and others. In fact, sometimes I worry that it teeters just on the edge of pandering. Brandon is not working as a slave in a coal mine. He is being paid very well and the publicity boost to his career that WOT has given him is literally priceless. It has also introduced many, many new fans to his own projects that may not have existed PRE-WOT.

 

Brandon Sanderson is co-writing the end of one of the most beloved and successful series of fantasy books of all time. Of course comparisons and criticism are inevitable. And probably will be still for many years after AMOL's publication. Literature and art are born for criticism - it comes with the territory.

 

I personally feel that, concerning actual prose, RJ was an extremely talented writer, technically-speaking, and was underrated in this area mainly due to the genre (fantasy) in which he primarily worked.

 

It is very possible to have criticism and appreciation both expressed for Brandon and that is what is done here 99% of the time. Noone here has been nasty or used the word "hate" (as you quoted).

 

Its laudable that you feel strongly positive overall about Brandon's writing. That is terrific. But try not to be so oversensitive when others express their right to constructively criticize as the final three volumes are released. Just an opinion.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King
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I'm more or less ignoring the ongoing argument, but my general thoughts....

 

BS doesn't have quite the same writing style as RJ, but frankly, RJ's writing style was not why I was reading the books. RJ's style was only passably readable anyway. It wasn't that he had a way with words; he had a way with storylines and world-building. Brandon is finishing out those storylines within that world, and he's doing so in a way that's also at least passably readable. So I like it a lot. My top 3 books in the series would probably be TSR, TOM, and TGS, in that order.

 

The only character I noticed sounding a bit off was Mat, but when it wasn't screamingly off (the mis-spelled letter?), he was actually a lot funnier than he has been in the past, so I didn't much mind. (Well, and Padan Fain lost a lot of what made him cool in that one scene in TOM because he was so over the top, but I don't mind that so much, as long as his role in the Last Battle isn't awful.)

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This thread has gotten a little nasty hasnt it..

 

I dont post on here much, though i read dang near everything on here, but i thought this topic was worth posting on

I have been reading WOT for many MANY years and have long awaited, and dreaded, the series coming to a close. WOT is by far my favorite series and the passing of RJ was horrible news to me, and i am sad to say for selfish reasons. I did not have a personal relationship with Robert Jordan but i did have a personal relationship with the Wheel of Time, what would happen not to the story that i have come to love.

 

In steps Brandon Sanderson. Before Brandon was announced as the author to finish WOT i had no idea who he was and i was very worried about how these books would turn out. I cant think of an author that would have not had me worried but a relatively unknown like Brandon was really worried me, primarily what would he do to Mat!!

 

So i went out and got most everything Brandon had written. I read Elatris and thought it was decent. I read the Mistborn Trilogy and i really became of fan of Brandon's writting.

But, Brandon's writting is nothing like RJs writting. I always thought RJ saw himself more as an artist then an author, he was painting you a picture with words. Many critics of RJs work simply say that he writes too much, he is too discriptive. I can certainly understand how someone can say that, i just dont agree.

Brandon doesnt write like that. He isn't painting a picture, he is telling a story and at some point he is going to punch you in the face with something you dont expect. He is much more blunt as an author, he uses some words to get you to what he really wants you to read, usually a fight scene.

 

I certainly dont think that BSs ability as a writer is up for debate anymore. He has a huge following and multiple best selling books. Yes, you can say that WOT did alot of that for him and i agree with that statement.

But finishing WOT was not a slam dunk, you will be a star, making project. If he would have tanked at finishing the books the WOT community would have destroyed him. Taking this job was a huge risk with posssible huge reward. I feel he has gotten the huge reward because he has done a very good job finishing this story.

 

Are there changes to the choice of wording and some character changes,of course, how could there not be. These two men are very different writers. I would argue that BSs work in WOT is much more like RJs style than it is like BSs style. Do some things feel different, yes, but not dramatically so. At least to me.

Mat is different but i still love him. The letter made me laugh out loud. Would RJ have written it that way, probably not, but it was still funny. And yes he has gotten a little over the top, but i can put that to Mat trying to prove to Mat that he is still Mat.

 

ToM is easily one of the top 4 books in the series for me. I loved it. I felt a little let down by "the rescue" but i have been dreaming of that part for a long time now, it is possible nothing would have been enough. In ToM i felt Mat became more Mat again and Perrin became Perrin again. Maybe that was all RJ but maybe not.

 

I am thankful that Brandon took this risk. He has done a wonderful job in my opinion and has gained a fan.

 

I suppose they could have gotten Mr. Goodkind to finish the books. He has been mimicking RJs style for years and finishing the story would have been no problem for him. I'm sure he has his own work that will be concluding strangly similar to WOT already in the works.

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I certainly dont think that BSs ability as a writer is up for debate anymore. He has a huge following and multiple best selling books.

 

So does Stephanie Meyer. :biggrin: My overall point is BS while at times a good writer can be pretty inconsistent and has room for growth. In TGS and ToM shortcomings were exasperated by constricted space in text and far too short of a time allowed on revisions. The talent is obviously there but he has flaws to address if he wants to get in that top tier of fantasy authors. As I said before it's my belief that this go round, with more time allowed to polish his work he will do so in aMoL.

 

As an aside the Goodkind comment got a chuckle.

Edited by Suttree
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Okay, I know this is a topic people have strong feelings about on both sides of the fence, but lets at least try for civility shall we. No more personal attacks please.

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RJs style never really changed throughout the series. He had a knack for writing clear, brief prose that richly described the subject scenes without becoming verbose or redundant.

 

I disagree the hi-lighted word. RJ was in no way brief, ever. That's my biggest complaint, aside from the repetitive behaviors in his characters; otherwise I really enjoyed his writing. I got the point about crossing the arms under the breasts the first hundred times you used that description, as an example. He really did know how to paint a picture of his world that kept me fascinated and coming back for more. I've ready every book save TGS and TOM at least 15 times at this point.

 

I'm not saying Brandon is perfect. I just don't have a problem with most of what people have complained about to date, and I can't think of anyone else who would have done better with it. I also am of the opinion a lot of the complaints are overblown and that we will find out after the fact that at least some of the things we complained the loudest about are actually things RJ had already written.

 

Brief is a relative term, and one that is a matter of personal opinion and taste. Compare RJs style to GRRMs, and I find RJ 'brief'. If you're familiar with ASOIAF, just recall all of the times we're forced through several pages where the banners of houses gathered for a tourney/battle are described, or almost any of Daenerys's chapters in the latest books. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have dimestore paperback writers, the types of stories where you may not know the main protagonists' eye color after completing the story. In those, you may not know the hero's eye color, but you'll get instant gratification in the form of a fight scene or two per chapter.

 

Every author has to make their own decision regarding how much they want their readers to be immersed in the story. The more detailed the story is, the more it is possible to immerse the reader, but this also means that the story is going to be longer. Conversely, with less detail applied then the less likely the reader will become immersed in the subject, but you will also be able to get plot gratification much sooner.

 

Back to the OPs subject, the more I think about it the less I think you can compare RJ and BS based on this series. I think you would have to read one of Brandon's other books/series to know his style, after experiencing his 'world building'. I say this because Brandon was such a fan of the series prior to be chosen to complete it, that I assume he wants / wanted to emulate RJ to the best of his ability. Whether he accomplished that is really what is being discussed here, IMO.

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RJs style never really changed throughout the series. He had a knack for writing clear, brief prose that richly described the subject scenes without becoming verbose or redundant.

 

I disagree the hi-lighted word. RJ was in no way brief, ever. That's my biggest complaint, aside from the repetitive behaviors in his characters; otherwise I really enjoyed his writing. I got the point about crossing the arms under the breasts the first hundred times you used that description, as an example. He really did know how to paint a picture of his world that kept me fascinated and coming back for more. I've ready every book save TGS and TOM at least 15 times at this point.

 

I'm not saying Brandon is perfect. I just don't have a problem with most of what people have complained about to date, and I can't think of anyone else who would have done better with it. I also am of the opinion a lot of the complaints are overblown and that we will find out after the fact that at least some of the things we complained the loudest about are actually things RJ had already written.

 

Brief is a relative term, and one that is a matter of personal opinion and taste. Compare RJs style to GRRMs, and I find RJ 'brief'. If you're familiar with ASOIAF, just recall all of the times we're forced through several pages where the banners of houses gathered for a tourney/battle are described, or almost any of Daenerys's chapters in the latest books. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have dimestore paperback writers, the types of stories where you may not know the main protagonists' eye color after completing the story. In those, you may not know the hero's eye color, but you'll get instant gratification in the form of a fight scene or two per chapter.

 

Every author has to make their own decision regarding how much they want their readers to be immersed in the story. The more detailed the story is, the more it is possible to immerse the reader, but this also means that the story is going to be longer. Conversely, with less detail applied then the less likely the reader will become immersed in the subject, but you will also be able to get plot gratification much sooner.

 

Can't believe I'm actually quoting Felix Pax but occasionally you find a gem mixed in with the nonsense and I think this is relevant to the topic.

 

TinkerPride Felix Pax

@Zommael It felt like Brandon was a TV play-by-play announcer being *pushed* to doing a Radio play-by-play... verbal pictures are missing.

 

Interesting point and quite valid at times. It's part of the reason I have had trouble with rereads of TGS and ToM.

 

In terms of RJ, don't think you will get many people to swing to your pov. To my mind he was far from brief and that is quite obviously one RJ's faults when he goes overboard with it.

Edited by Suttree
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Brief is a relative term, and one that is a matter of personal opinion and taste. Compare RJs style to GRRMs, and I find RJ 'brief'. If you're familiar with ASOIAF, just recall all of the times we're forced through several pages where the banners of houses gathered for a tourney/battle are described, or almost any of Daenerys's chapters in the latest books. On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have dimestore paperback writers, the types of stories where you may not know the main protagonists' eye color after completing the story. In those, you may not know the hero's eye color, but you'll get instant gratification in the form of a fight scene or two per chapter.

Two wrongs doesn't make a right. Just because Martin is prone sometimes to describe too much stuff like food and heraldry, doesn't make Jordan's style "brief" in any way or form. Besides, GRRM excesses in this regards are much less than Jordan's. Even if you disagree with the last sentence, I don't see how the style of someone who needed 11 thick books to tell a story and was nowhere near finishing it at the end of the last of those 11, can be considered brief.

Edited by David Selig
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