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sonjaruff

How Sanderson changed the naration

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Fist of all, I am sorry if this is too bold for s.o. as new as me or the wrong placew, but I seem to not find my way around this forum so, since I feel a strong desire to discuss things I needed to start somewhere. And I didn't find this topic somewhere else.

 

In my opinion, Sandersson did a great job, the naration is continoued beautifully, and I am very happy with that. However there are small changes, as is to be expected and I am not complaining. But being the nerd that I am, I can not help noticing and wanted to start a collection of such details.

 

1. Tan

Sanderson really likes the word tan, the landscape and the Aiel are very tan since he started writing WoT. As you can guess from my writing, I am no native English speaker and after the word kept surfacing I needed to look it up. Jordan could fill hundreds of pages with Aiel stuff without using the word tan once as a colour.

 

2. Talmanes

I've read this here before, but Talmanes maner changed a little to more ironic and witty. This could also be a sublte character development, and I like it. Also Mat needed a friend.

 

3. Mat and the ladys

In Sandersons eyes mat is kind of a wannabe playboy. he is overconfidet to the point of cockyness. Old Mat would have called him a puffed up bafoon.

Old Mat did charm women, didn't want to be tied down and played down the fact that he had a multitued of harmless but physical flirts (like in the Stone of Tear).

New mat thinks he is goods gift to women, but isn't really. I do not think this is character development - due to the Tylin and Tuon and being married experience - I think Sanderson has a slightly diffrent take on Mat as a charecter.

 

4. Elaynes attitude

I think there is a similiar thing going on with Elayne. Sandersons Elayne is more irrational and whiny and unrelatable than old Elayne was. And this is not just the pregnancy, but the whole perspective on life.

Old Elayne was of course also demanding, but curious and conflict easing and nice to everybody. She was genuinly brave and selfless, if comanding, whith a cause, as she had to be in accordance with what she was raised to be. Now she often appears spoiled and over the top.

I do not deny that she is a tricky character, walking the edge and many of you don't like her, but she was my favourite character and I think Jordan painted her complex and believable but fondly, that is, he liked her. I think Sanderson doesn't like her, and I think he doesn't really get her and her motives.

 

5. Sandersons Aiel, despite being tan, tend to be "nobel savages", strange people you don't really get, who mean nice but are a bit off. I feel that Sanderson Avienda narrative has an edge in this direction.

But since this is very long allready, I would ellaborate on this if anybody is in fact interrested for this will be the most difficult one to sketch.

I'm affraid I lost you whith Elayne allready...

 

So what do you think?

Do you agree with me and / or did you find other slight changes in the narration?

 

marlis

 

PS: concerning Aan'allein; allein is German for alone, einer allein means one alone. aonr allein is Bavarian dialect for one alone; so this old tounge name sounds amusingly literate fo a German speaker. :-D

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There is a good deal of difference with how BS writes a number of the characters. He was rushed and had very little time to polish his work. In addition he had limited time and space in which to wrap things up. As a result at times we get caricatures in place of the fully fleshed out versions we are used to. Mat and Cadsuane are two of the most obvious examples.

Edited by Suttree

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Please understand me, I am not complaining I do understand why, I am just pointing out.

 

How does Cadsuane change? Maybe I don't relate to her enough to notice.

 

Do you agree with my depiction of the changes?

 

I feel that in the case of Elayne it matters, because the narators attitude towards the character changes.

Can you see what I mean?

 

 

 

...and sorry, I am too tiered to sketch out Avienda and the Aiel tonight. :rolleyes: Tomorrow evening.

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Please understand me, I am not complaining I do understand why, I am just pointing out.

 

How does Cadsuane change? Maybe I don't relate to her enough to notice.

 

Do you agree with my depiction of the changes?

 

I feel that in the case of Elayne it matters, because the narators attitude towards the character changes.

Can you see what I mean?

 

 

 

...and sorry, I am too tiered to sketch out Avienda and the Aiel tonight. :rolleyes: Tomorrow evening.

 

Luckers made a great post on this topic in another thread...

 

Actually, I personally feel it has very little to do with bias, and more to do with his writing methodology. His style is all about slapping down words on a page and getting on to the next thing, and as a result both his character and plot work is blunt, simplistic and unpolished, relying on fan and plot gratification to pull the weight of the narative.

 

The end product is that characters under Brandon invariably are informed by a blunt assessment of their motivations, thus resulting in a deeply literal portrayal. Cadsuane, rather than being the exception, is merely an example in which this is made particularily noticeable due to the degree of negativity in Brandon's assessment of her. Other examples would include Berelain and her wierd niave 'me + Perrin + sex = treaty with the Dragon', or Olver and his nearly sociopathic understanding of his relationship with Mat, but it is present in pretty much every scene, and every character.

 

When you add this to Brandon's tendency to compromise secondary character to make primrary characters look good during confrontational scenes--and yes, its pretty shoddy writing.

 

I do agree with you that the narrator's attitude toward particular characters also play a small role in his depiction.

Edited by Suttree

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4. Elaynes attitude

I think there is a similiar thing going on with Elayne. Sandersons Elayne is more irrational and whiny and unrelatable than old Elayne was. And this is not just the pregnancy, but the whole perspective on life.

Old Elayne was of course also demanding, but curious and conflict easing and nice to everybody. She was genuinly brave and selfless, if comanding, whith a cause, as she had to be in accordance with what she was raised to be. Now she often appears spoiled and over the top.

I do not deny that she is a tricky character, walking the edge and many of you don't like her, but she was my favourite character and I think Jordan painted her complex and believable but fondly, that is, he liked her. I think Sanderson doesn't like her, and I think he doesn't really get her and her motives.

 

This is your only viewpoint I disagree with. I think Elayne's character went to 'spoiled and over-the-top' while she was still travelling with Valan Luca's Circus. She loses or is (hopefully) temporarily hiding many of her endearing qualities starting from that point. Uderstand that I'm not saying that Brandon's writing/characterization of her isn't slightly different from RJ though. We'd notice differences in the characters regardless of who was chosen to complete it. Brandon is trying to emulate RJs style to the best of his ability, but it's somewhat like watching one of the great comedic imitators (eg, Robin Williams). Sometimes they seem spot on, but there will always be that point where it just doesn't seem at all like the person they're trying to imitate.

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I posted this in another thread recently, but, considering the subject matter of this topic, I'd like to share it here:

 

I am a very big critic of Sanderson's ''style''...Very big. However, one thing that amuses me greatly every time it happens is when I - or others - will wince at a part in TGS/TOM that just sounds waaaay too colloquial, modern or informal - and then I find an example of some very similar phrasing in an early WOT book written by Jordan! LOL.

 

In fact, I think a Thread of its own may be deserved on this topic, but for here I will list just a few examples:

 

1 In Book 5, TFOH, Mat mentions that things got ''Hairy'' ...in fact his exact words are ''Things got REALLY Hairy'' - LOL...That sounds like something Id hear the kids say down at Starbucks! If Mat used that phrase in TGS or TOM Sanderson would be getting FRIED over it. My point is, there WERE examples in early Jordan WOT books where Jordan himself sometimes jarred me by randomly using a fairly modern, casual turn of phrase. I can actually think of several times in early books where Mat says or thinks phrases like ''No way''...''Not a chance''...''Things got really hairy''...''that deal''....all veeeery modern, casual slang that if Sanderson wrote...he'd be executed for on the spot, lol!

 

2 Mat's first dialogue in TGS featuring his litany to Talmanes on women, drinking and gambling has often been called ''painful''to read, HOWEVER, on a recent reread I've noticed that Mat has EXTREMELY similar thoughts on women, drinking and gambling in Book 5 and Book 7. Sanderson has also said that the notes left by RJ himself instructed that Mat was to be almost ''forcing'' himself to try and re-adopt his pre-Tuon personality as a way of denying and dealing with much that had happened to him (namely his marriage)...So, for people that say ''Thats not Mat''....well, actually, its almost like B.S. almost directly lifted that part from Books 5 and 7. Everytime I reread this part in TGS I grow more and more forgiving of Sanderson here. And it starts to sound more and more like Mat. I know, that's practically sacreligious to say here.

 

3 I have read complaints that the ''Tower of Ghenji'' chapters in TOM were a letdown and would have been much better ''if Jordan had written them.'' ... Guess what? Brandon has confirmed that Jordan DID write them. I personally enjoyed them. I thought they were a BIT lacking...but after so many years of anticipation, those chapters would have been almost impossible to NOT be a letdown. Expectations were too high.

 

4 I have read that the reason ''Mat is a lot better in TOM'' is because ''Jordan wrote most of Mat in TOM'' ... Jordan DID write much of it, yes, but what I think is funny is I often see ''A Seven-Striped Lass'' cited as the example of Mat ''back in form'' (and I personally DID feel that that particular chapter WAS an excellent, excellent ''Mat Chapter') and Brandon has confirmed that HE - not Jordan - wrote that chapter.

 

5 Mat's letter in TOM to Elayne. People seem to either love it or hated it. I certainly DID NOT CARE FOR IT..but I didn't HATE it. I will say, for the Haters, that Mat wrote a ''letter'' almost WORD FOR WORD THE SAME to Nynaeve in Book 7.

 

I guess what I am saying is...Brandon isn't perfect, and, in fact, he makes me wince quite a bit. But hes doing a good job, and I think we all - myself included - have been mistaken many times when we've said ''Jordan would NEVER have used that phrase'' - or that something was ''obviously'' written by Sanderson or Jordan and not the other.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

Fish

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2 Mat's first dialogue in TGS featuring his litany to Talmanes on women, drinking and gambling has often been called ''painful''to read, HOWEVER, on a recent reread I've noticed that Mat has EXTREMELY similar thoughts on women, drinking and gambling in Book 5 and Book 7. Sanderson has also said that the notes left by RJ himself instructed that Mat was to be almost ''forcing'' himself to try and re-adopt his pre-Tuon personality as a way of denying and dealing with much that had happened to him (namely his marriage)...So, for people that say ''Thats not Mat''....well, actually, its almost like B.S. almost directly lifted that part from Books 5 and 7. Everytime I reread this part in TGS I grow more and more forgiving of Sanderson here. And it starts to sound more and more like Mat. I know, that's practically sacreligious to say here.

 

Mind posting some examples of what you mean here Fish? I don't feel there are any similarities in the way Mat is portrayed during those situations. In fact when drawing comparisons to the two it is some of the best evidence used to show how off he is.

 

3 I have read complaints that the ''Tower of Ghenji'' chapters in TOM were a letdown and would have been much better ''if Jordan had written them.'' ... Guess what? Brandon has confirmed that Jordan DID write them. I personally enjoyed them. I thought they were a BIT lacking...but after so many years of anticipation, those chapters would have been almost impossible to NOT be a letdown. Expectations were too high.

 

Indeed, that always draws quite a chuckle when someone posts on that topic.

 

4 I have read that the reason ''Mat is a lot better in TOM'' is because ''Jordan wrote most of Mat in TOM'' ... Jordan DID write much of it, yes, but what I think is funny is I often see ''A Seven-Striped Lass'' cited as the example of Mat ''back in form'' (and I personally DID feel that that particular chapter WAS an excellent, excellent ''Mat Chapter') and Brandon has confirmed that HE - not Jordan - wrote that chapter.

 

This I find very odd. The SSL is often cited as one of the most cringe worthy chapters in the entire series. It embodies much of what BS has done wrong with Mat, don't think I have ever seen someone use that as an example of RJ's writing either here or on Theoryland.

 

5 Mat's letter in TOM to Elayne. People seem to either love it or hated it. I certainly DID NOT CARE FOR IT..but I didn't HATE it. I will say, for the Haters, that Mat wrote a ''letter'' almost WORD FOR WORD THE SAME to Nynaeve in Book 7.

 

Again if you could provide examples of what you mean I would appreciate it. I don't recall the letter all that well but, I def don't remember it being chock full of misspellings and forced humor.

Edited by Suttree

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2 Mat's first dialogue in TGS featuring his litany to Talmanes on women, drinking and gambling has often been called ''painful''to read, HOWEVER, on a recent reread I've noticed that Mat has EXTREMELY similar thoughts on women, drinking and gambling in Book 5 and Book 7. Sanderson has also said that the notes left by RJ himself instructed that Mat was to be almost ''forcing'' himself to try and re-adopt his pre-Tuon personality as a way of denying and dealing with much that had happened to him (namely his marriage)...So, for people that say ''Thats not Mat''....well, actually, its almost like B.S. almost directly lifted that part from Books 5 and 7. Everytime I reread this part in TGS I grow more and more forgiving of Sanderson here. And it starts to sound more and more like Mat. I know, that's practically sacreligious to say here.

 

Mind posting some examples of what you mean here Fish? I don't feel there are any similarities in the way Mat is portrayed during those situations. In fact when drawing comparisons to the two it is some of the best evidence used to show how off he is.

 

3 I have read complaints that the ''Tower of Ghenji'' chapters in TOM were a letdown and would have been much better ''if Jordan had written them.'' ... Guess what? Brandon has confirmed that Jordan DID write them. I personally enjoyed them. I thought they were a BIT lacking...but after so many years of anticipation, those chapters would have been almost impossible to NOT be a letdown. Expectations were too high.

 

Indeed, that always draws quite a chuckle when someone posts on that topic.

 

4 I have read that the reason ''Mat is a lot better in TOM'' is because ''Jordan wrote most of Mat in TOM'' ... Jordan DID write much of it, yes, but what I think is funny is I often see ''A Seven-Striped Lass'' cited as the example of Mat ''back in form'' (and I personally DID feel that that particular chapter WAS an excellent, excellent ''Mat Chapter') and Brandon has confirmed that HE - not Jordan - wrote that chapter.

 

This I find very odd. The SSL is often cited as one of the most cringe worthy chapters in the entire series. It embodies much of what BS has done wrong with Mat, don't think I have ever seen someone use that as an example of RJ's writing either here or on Theoryland.

 

5 Mat's letter in TOM to Elayne. People seem to either love it or hated it. I certainly DID NOT CARE FOR IT..but I didn't HATE it. I will say, for the Haters, that Mat wrote a ''letter'' almost WORD FOR WORD THE SAME to Nynaeve in Book 7.

 

Again if you could provide examples of what you mean I would appreciate it. I don't recall the letter all that well but, I def don't remember it being chock full of misspellings and forced humor.

 

To give you a place to look for two of the requests you made of me, Suttree, I can suggest Book 7. I don't rememeber the chapter, but Mat's first ''letter'' is in that particular volume. I can tell you that in the chapter titled ''Six Stories'' (also in Book 7) is where you will find an internal conversation Mat has with himself that is almost word for word a mirror of the one he has with Talmanes in TGS, ''A Broken Road.'' As for ''A Seven Striped Lass''...well, I remember MANY posts right after TOM was released on all the usual Boards (including Tor - where it was first reviewed) talking about how much...how VERY MUCH *Improved* Mat's persona was in that chapter. I tended to agree. It was an excellent ''Mat Chapter.'' Since Sanderson began writing WOT, the two ''Mat Chapters'' I have seen the most egregious outcry against have been ''On A Broken Road'' and the one in TGS where he uses ''Saidar'' as a verb....A Seven Striped Lass was slightly over the top, but muuuuuch calmer than the over-caffienated, cardboard cariacuture we got in TGS. And remember, RJ (via his notes) specifically INSTRUCTED that Mat be a bit nuerotic after KOD...and that he come off a bit more immature than the more mature adult he had grown into in COT/KOD all in an attempt to convince himself that he was still a ''free-spirit'' despite the marriage ceremony having been completed.

 

... ... ... Now, we can debate the difference in how RJ might have portrayed that vs Brandon's approach, but that's a different story. Again, Im not defending B.S. I think he seems to be an OUTSTANDING human being who has earned my eternal appreciation for helping see the end of WOT published, but his prose and characterization too often strikes me as a kid being given the keys to his dad's car for the first time.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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Brandon loves to use the word "tempest."

 

very true :rolleyes:

 

Marlis, I have enjoyed your post. I (eventually- and with great difficulty) got over ''Tempest'' when I went back and discovered that RJ had grown quite fond of the word in the second half of the series. I also was able to (barely) swallow the use of words like ''Alabaster'' and ''Magnificent'' for the same reason - discovering that Jordan himself had used them (if sparingly).

 

What really took me OUT of the story in TOM was how every single slightly older male character overused the word ''Son'' - it drove me up the wall. Gareth Bryne, Tam etc...everyone was ''Son.''

 

I did a search of TEOTW and Tam never even refers to Rand as ''Son'' once in that book.

 

Sanderson also uses 'Royalty' where Jordan preferred ''Nobility'' - but Jordan DID use 'Royalty' (though rarely) so, again, I swallow it.

 

I just wish Brandon didn't find these little terms and phrases and go soooooo overboard with them. Its just jarring - to me at least.

 

 

Fish

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The character changes that bug me the most is mat and berelain.

I think of the different styles as watching your favourite tv show but all the actor have changed.

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3. Mat and the ladys

In Sandersons eyes mat is kind of a wannabe playboy. he is overconfidet to the point of cockyness. Old Mat would have called him a puffed up bafoon.

Old Mat did charm women, didn't want to be tied down and played down the fact that he had a multitued of harmless but physical flirts (like in the Stone of Tear).

New mat thinks he is goods gift to women, but isn't really. I do not think this is character development - due to the Tylin and Tuon and being married experience - I think Sanderson has a slightly diffrent take on Mat as a charecter.

 

 

"Old Mat" would call himself all sorts of thing. Old Mat would've called Old Mat a lot of things. One of the most fun aspects of his character is his inability to judge himself accurately. He's always calling out others on things he's even more prone to himself. Right? He and Nynaeve are the worst (best?) at this. SO that aspect of new Mat doesn't bother me.

 

BUT i agree that he was off a bit in tGS. I didn't notice as much in ToM. Overall i think brandon is great, and i'm SO glad he's finishing this. but yeah, definitely there are people who don't read quite right.

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To be fair, Fisher, Tam and Rand didn't exactly talk much in TEOTW, the book pretty much had a single chapter with them together, it is fair to believe we only caught a tiny window of how they interacted.

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I would like to point out although I have been critical of his writing at times, I am very thankful for the job BS has done. I think the time he has been giving to complete the first two books made the task near impossible. He has performed well under very difficult circumstances and we are lucky to have him.

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There is a huge difference between how Robert Jordan and how Brandon Sanderson write, for me it's most noticeable in Mat, who went from being in my top three favorites to literally my second most hated, only behind Egwene.. Reading Mat's letter to Elayne made me put the book down in disgust..

 

The scene where Mat and Perrin reunited for that brief moment brought a tear to my eye.. But besides that scene and the final scene with Moiraine, I was truly appalled by Mat.

 

 

Edit: I enjoy all the other characters, Elayne's brothers have really improved in my opinion, as well as Perrin.

Edited by RyanG

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For me, Faile, Gawyn and Galad are just a few characters that I enjoyed more in TGS/TOM than I used too.

 

I also feel that Sanderson NAILS Perrin.

 

Cadsuane felt just right to me early in TGS but waaay off in the second half off that book. I have enjoyed Avi, Min and Rand quite a bit in the last two books.

 

The thing is, with very few exceptions, we don't really 'Know' which part of TGS/TOM were written by which author. All we 'know' so far is:

 

Jordan wrote much of the prologues. Much of the ending of AMOL. The TOG sequence at the end of TOM. Much of Mat (though not all) in the middle of TOM. Much of Egwene in TGS. Sanderson wrote ''A Seven Striped Lass'' in TOM, ALL of Mat in TGS, much of Rand in TGS/TOM, much of Egwene in TOM and much of Perrin in those books as well.

 

This is not much to go on. But its something.

 

 

Fish

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I agree with a lot of the OP. Glad someone else thinks that BS has changed the Aiel quite a bit.

 

...I don't wanna be a Brandon-hater. And I'm not a Brandon-hater. I'm very pleased that he's taken over WoT and I have very much enjoyed the last two books. But...I love characters. Characters are what makes a story for me. And RJ had some great characters - they had layers, their presonalities were subtle (however they acted on the outside), and nothing was ever too obvious. They'd think one thing and say another.

 

BS does not get that. The two most complex characters, Rand and Mat, have been whittled down to the bare framework of their personalities, and Rand has begun monologuing about himself as if he's taping his memoirs. Subtlety has been abandonned, and the characters have forgotten the meaning of cool, which is something I always used to like about WoT (certainly beats cringing constantly). BS does better with his favourite characters imo (Perrin and Aviendha) but I will never forgive him for mangling my favourites.

 

...But just to reiterrate, I do appreciate the job he's doing :blush:

Edited by Randommer

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Subtlety has been abandonned, and the characters have forgotten the meaning of cool, which is something I always used to like about WoT (certainly beats cringing constantly).

 

This. I think BS has a tough time trying to convey that "cool" aspect with some of the characters. It comes across as cliched some of the time.

 

Agree with others that he nails Perrin, although I have never been much of a fan of his storyline.

Edited by Suttree

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i think that sanderson did a much better job with mat in TOM than he did in his first book. i found mat's character (which is my favourite) to be much better and true to form.

 

I also think that sanderson has really nailed Perrin's character and does a great job there.

 

Have noticed a few differences with other characters, but i guess that's always going to happen.

 

All in all am happy that sanderson is doing a pretty decent job and think we all need to band together somehow and petition sanderson to do a few outrigger novels after AMOL.

 

I've heard he doesn't intend to do any, and feel very shortchanged. Let's get something going to convince him to do at least a few outrigger novels.

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i think that sanderson did a much better job with mat in TOM than he did in his first book. i found mat's character (which is my favourite) to be much better and true to form.

 

Because RJ wrote most of Mat in ToM. A few things such as the Seven Striped Lass and the "the letter" stand out as all BS.

 

I've heard he doesn't intend to do any, and feel very shortchanged. Let's get something going to convince him to do at least a few outrigger novels.

 

Not likely to happen. At this point both Harriet and BS are against it. Not to mention there is not much material for him to work with like there was for aMoL. RJ was very much against others writing in his world, it wasn't until the very late that he agreed to let someone finish the main series. We are all lucky to have BS wrap things up and I feel we should be content with that.

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4. Elaynes attitude

I think there is a similiar thing going on with Elayne. Sandersons Elayne is more irrational and whiny and unrelatable than old Elayne was. And this is not just the pregnancy, but the whole perspective on life.

Old Elayne was of course also demanding, but curious and conflict easing and nice to everybody. She was genuinly brave and selfless, if comanding, whith a cause, as she had to be in accordance with what she was raised to be. Now she often appears spoiled and over the top.

I do not deny that she is a tricky character, walking the edge and many of you don't like her, but she was my favourite character and I think Jordan painted her complex and believable but fondly, that is, he liked her. I think Sanderson doesn't like her, and I think he doesn't really get her and her motives.

I am a big fan of Elayne as well but I really don't see Sanderson's Elayne as much different from Jordan's and see no evidence that he dislikes her as a character. In fact I'd say ToM's Elayne was quite a bit more likeable than the one on KoD (which was her low point in this respect IMO).

 

The biggest mistake Sanderson made in regards to Elayne was that his Elayne didn't think about Aviendha once throughout ToM which is just sloppy writing. Apart from that, Sanderson did a very good job with her motivation and reasoning IMO.

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I felt that mat and gawyn were the two charaters that changed the most.... i felt as if i'd lost a friend who will never retern with mat's charater... like it was to be expected wiv BS and i'm glad hes finishing the WoT but its sad that the mat we are used to disapeared under a shallow potrail of what he was...

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I have been happy with Brandon's work. I too found Mat to be a little off in TGS, I didn't like him saying "Burn it." I kept reading it as if he was a cowboy. I don't think "burn it" was ever used in the series. It was always "burn me."

 

I would like to compliment his writing of Dark Rand in TGS. I think that was spot on.

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