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Perfexionist

True Masters of the Blade

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I just read a section out of The Gathering Storm (my first read through). In Chapter 13 "An Offer and a Departure", Gawyn defeats two warders at once for the third time in a row. One of the two warders, Sleete, was described as "...near-legendary in the White Tower for his prowess. He was said to have bested even Lan Mandragon twice out of seven bouts, back when Mandragon had been known to spar with other Warders."

 

Really? I want say Sanderson is hornswoggling us here. Some new Warder never before mentioned appears in Book 12, and he beats Lan two out of seven spars? And Gawyn can beat him plus another Warder three times in a row? I'm not buying it. I'd like to think Lan could beat anyone near 100% of the time, and if someone did near his skill they could defeat Gawyn with another Warder. If a swordsmen bests Lan two out of seven and Gawyn bests them thrice in a row while they have a partner, that makes Gawyn equal or betted than Lan, does it not?

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts. Do you guys find Sleete as much bogus as I do, or am I just being blinded by a liking of Lan here?

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Lan, whilst a good swordsman, isn't the best... we see lan admit that Toram was better than him, when he battles him in Far Madding.

I think Galad is better than both Gawyn and Lan.

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Lan, whilst a good swordsman, isn't the best... we see lan admit that Toram was better than him, when he battles him in Far Madding.

I think Galad is better than both Gawyn and Lan.

 

Not true. Per RJ and BS rankings list, Lan is the best swordsman in the WoT.

 

Lan>Rand(pre hand loss)>Galad>Gawyn...

Edited by Suttree

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Rand w/ two hands > Galad is a bit surprising, but makes it even more pitiful he lost his hand. I'm still mad at him.

 

Personally Lan seems a clear superior to any other swordsman living, and in my opinion by a fair margin. That is why some random Warder thrown into one chapter of the book beating Lan irritates me greatly.

 

Lan's most defining moment for me was (the details are now blurry) when he was practicing extremely exerting forms on his own a ways off while Aes Sedia quietly conversed about him, and later it is revealed he heard every word. True greatness.

 

Just wanted to hear your thoughts, if you agree / disagree, if Sleete beating Lan irritated you, etc.

Edited by Perfexionist

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Sleete probably fought with Lan years ago when both were young...time has passed. Doesnt it say in one of the books that Gawyne is better than Galad or it implies it[ correct me if im wrong]. I think the only person who could best Lan in fighting is Matt. But at the sword...Lan is good as gold. Rand did defeat Turok when He was basiclly a beginner though.. I realy liked that part..Too way freaking bad He lost his hand......I always wanted Galad and Rand to have a crazy fight ending with ..."Galad, I am your brother"! although Rand is the one who loses his hand..hmm

 

Good post.

 

P.s Id like Bashere to show some saucy manuevers with the sharp stick...

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Doesnt it say in one of the books that Gawyne is better than Galad or it implies it[ correct me if im wrong].

 

No it is the opposite.

 

TSR

"I suppose I had better get myself back to the practice yard if I expect to keep up with Galad. I managed two out of five against Hammar this morning, but Galad actually won three, the last time he bothered to come to the yard."

 

Various other characters also comment on how quickly Galad picks up on things.

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Hmm, don't think I'm that far yet. Lan admits that who is better than him? Not putting a character to that name at the moment.

 

Toram Riatin is the guy Rand fights in ACOS 35 before the BoE hits the Cairhien rebel camp. He then disappears for a while and reappears again with Fain, in Far Madding, in WH 33. Lan kills Riatin while Rand takes on Fain

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Lan, whilst a good swordsman, isn't the best... we see lan admit that Toram was better than him, when he battles him in Far Madding.

I think Galad is better than both Gawyn and Lan.

 

Lan is BY FAR the best swordsman in WOT. The LTT of swords.

 

Lan >> Rand.

 

Rand is the one that fought Toram, and Toram abilities are pretty close to Rand's. Lan killed Toram EASILY within less than a minute at most.

 

RJ&BS have ranked them as indicated above.

 

 

Lan >> Rand > Galad > Gawyn

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Well, to be fair, Rand was keeping the fight as even as he could against Riatin to try allowing his little magic touch to work.

 

I don't think Riatin is actually on Rand's level.

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Lan, whilst a good swordsman, isn't the best... we see lan admit that Toram was better than him, when he battles him in Far Madding.

I think Galad is better than both Gawyn and Lan.

 

Lan has admitted some men have been better than him such as when he fought Ryne in New Spring. I don't recall him saying that Toram was a better swordsman. I can only recall him mentioning that he got in a decent hit, thought he had won, and then Lan killed him, because it's not over until you're dead.

 

Galad is the second-best swordsman in the world right now. Lan is top-dog. Gawyn is third. Rand is currently not in the running.

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There's something that's always bothered me about that quote regarding Sleete, where it says he has "bested even Lan Mandragon twice out of seven bouts, back when Mandragon had been known to spar with other Warders." When exactly was this? We know that Moiraine didn't meet Lan until after she'd left the Tower from New Spring. We know that she wasn't about to return to the Tower in part because she was afraid they'd put her on the throne of Cairhein, and in part because she was on a secret mission to find the Dragon Reborn. When would Lan have had the opportunity to spar with other warders? Did he meet a few of 'em while he and Moiraine were out searching? It seems unlikely Moiraine would have wanted to stick around too long in a place where there were other Aes Sedai for fear she would receive a summons back to the Tower, not that she would have any intention of heeding that summons until she'd found Rand. I suppose she could have returned to the Tower once Suian was made Amryllin, but unless she'd run out of leads and was returning to the Tower for intel, she would have no real reason to. And I'm pretty sure that the Two Rivers was one of the leads she had at the end of New Spring. She would just have been able to breathe easier around other Aes Sedai while she was out and about searching. Even still, given the nature of her search, she would have wanted to avoid contact with other Aes Sedai.

 

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Once Lan was made a warder, he shouldn't have been around other warders often enough to train and spar with them.

 

Back on topic though, Lan's the best swordsman in Randland, but he's not supernatural-good. He's probably the best a mortal man can be at the sword, but he's not a god. Even the best will occasionally miss a block or a strike, overextend, or make other mistakes. This means that they will occasionally lose a couple of rounds just due to bad luck. And I don't recall Lan's admission that Riatin was better than him, though knowing Lan, if he said something like that, it was more likely a display of humility or some sort of dry sarcasm rather than a true estimation. A quote would be nice. And I think cookiecrisp is right about Riatin's abilities compared with Rand's. Rand was toying with him a bit, and Riatin was becoming more enraged as the fight wore on. There was every appearance that Rand would have won that fight if the tent hadn't been ripped off of 'em by that Mashadar-like thing.

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something to consider regarding Gawayn v sleete and friend

 

If u fight someone in the schoolyard or street 1 on 1 you can tell fairly easily who the better fighter is even if they lose to a lucky blow or mischance.

 

Now if you fight 1 v a 2 or 3 ppl or even up to 5 and u know what u are doing and have experience and they ARENT used to working together in a fight then you can use them against each other and win.

 

Gawayn did this to some extent. he particularly used the other warder against sleete and thus was able to win.

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moirane probably secretly went back to the tower sometimes and also she would have met other aes sedai on the road. After she had got to her full strength or near enough she could probably go back without becomming some other aes sedais slave, also once someone else had takent he throne of carhein its too late to put her on it. so she has probably spent some time in the tower as aes sedai since new spring.

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moirane probably secretly went back to the tower sometimes and also she would have met other aes sedai on the road. After she had got to her full strength or near enough she could probably go back without becomming some other aes sedais slave, also once someone else had takent he throne of carhein its too late to put her on it. so she has probably spent some time in the tower as aes sedai since new spring.

 

 

Agreed. We know moiraine was one of the strongest AS alive, so, there was probably only the Amyrlin and the Blue Ajah sitters who could order her about. Plus we know she took an angreal from the tower.

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has everyone forgotten that one scene in ToM in egwene's bedchamber? with the not ONE, not TWO, but THREE BLOODKNIVES, supposedly invincible assassins of the seanchan, and GAWYN winning, even if by the skin of his teeth? that means he still won against THREE opponents, which, most people dont win against ONE of, if they even realize the little buggers are there in the first place. oh and he did it blind, a situation when 1 person vs 3 normal persons probably wouldnt swing towards the one person winning.

 

rbs out

Edited by Rybesh

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Lan, whilst a good swordsman, isn't the best... we see lan admit that Toram was better than him, when he battles him in Far Madding.

I think Galad is better than both Gawyn and Lan.

 

Lan has admitted some men have been better than him such as when he fought Ryne in New Spring. I don't recall him saying that Toram was a better swordsman. I can only recall him mentioning that he got in a decent hit, thought he had won, and then Lan killed him, because it's not over until you're dead.

 

Galad is the second-best swordsman in the world right now. Lan is top-dog. Gawyn is third. Rand is currently not in the running.

 

 

Lan admitted that Ryne "was better", not some men. Lan was essentially fighting one handed at the end against Ryne. Lan was also out of practice since the end of Aiel war and this was his younger non prime version vs. Ryne at his prime (typically around 30 years in combat sports). According to Moraine: if there was a hair difference, it went to Ryne.

 

"Lan and Ryne danced the forms, gracefully flowing from one to another, their blades like whirlwinds, but if there was a hair between their abilities, it rested with Ryne. Blood fanned down the side of Lan's face."

 

Certainly a similar age Lan would dispatch Ryne. The new post Moraine Lan would annihilate him.

 

 

 

Toram was not better, only injury Lan received against Toram was minor cut to the side. Lan could have probably finished 2 Toram's at once the ease and quickness he dispatched him like trash.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes Rand > Toram. Rand was playing with him, however Toram was still close to Rand's abilities. Lan dispatched Toram with ease.

 

After Moraine died, Lan has essentially become this godly blademaster, taken it to the next level. According to Avienhda, she has never met a more dangerous man, "Death" she called him.

 

 

 

In the real world, even the best in the world can be beaten a couple of times, being unlucky, bad training camp or just having a bad night.

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has everyone forgotten that one scene in ToM in egwene's bedchamber? with the not ONE, not TWO, but THREE BLOODKNIVES, supposedly invincible assassins of the seanchan, and GAWYN winning, even if by the skin of his teeth? that means he still won against THREE opponents, which, most people dont win against ONE of, if they even realize the little buggers are there in the first place. oh and he did it blind, a situation when 1 person vs 3 normal persons probably wouldnt swing towards the one person winning.

 

rbs out

 

No one has forgotten. But according to RJ and BS he is at the bottom of the list. BS even said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks in relation to that fight.

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has everyone forgotten that one scene in ToM in egwene's bedchamber? with the not ONE, not TWO, but THREE BLOODKNIVES, supposedly invincible assassins of the seanchan, and GAWYN winning, even if by the skin of his teeth? that means he still won against THREE opponents, which, most people dont win against ONE of, if they even realize the little buggers are there in the first place. oh and he did it blind, a situation when 1 person vs 3 normal persons probably wouldnt swing towards the one person winning.

 

rbs out

 

No we haven't forgotten. It was an impressive feat. It doesn't mean someone else couldn't have done the same. But lets be honest, as scary as the Bloodknives are, I wouldn't rate them against Halfmen. And I'm half-convinced that when the aristocrats of the Wheel of Time talk about what to hunt tomorrow, if Lan's around, he'll propose hunting Halfmen. And he wont be joking.

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What I have a hard time understanding is that Gawyn beat three bloodknives and two warders without being a warder himself. I had thought that the warder bond enhanced speed, strength, reflexes, etc...but if a barely trained pup like Gawyn is beating two warders then the bond must not give that much of an advantage.

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It goes Drizzt Lan Gawyn Galad Steele Rodel......oops wrong world......Lan Gawyn Galad Steele Rodel......

I'm sure one of the Portal Stones can throw Rand into Forgotten Realms so they can duel.

 

What I have a hard time understanding is that Gawyn beat three bloodknives and two warders without being a warder himself. I had thought that the warder bond enhanced speed, strength, reflexes, etc...but if a barely trained pup like Gawyn is beating two warders then the bond must not give that much of an advantage.

I think warder bond only increases your endurance, so a short fight there would be no benefits for the warder. (I could be wrong, though.)

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has everyone forgotten that one scene in ToM in egwene's bedchamber? with the not ONE, not TWO, but THREE BLOODKNIVES, supposedly invincible assassins of the seanchan, and GAWYN winning, even if by the skin of his teeth? that means he still won against THREE opponents, which, most people dont win against ONE of, if they even realize the little buggers are there in the first place. oh and he did it blind, a situation when 1 person vs 3 normal persons probably wouldnt swing towards the one person winning.

 

rbs out

 

No one has forgotten. But according to RJ and BS he is at the bottom of the list. BS even said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks in relation to that fight.

 

Which was before he was bonded *cough*

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has everyone forgotten that one scene in ToM in egwene's bedchamber? with the not ONE, not TWO, but THREE BLOODKNIVES, supposedly invincible assassins of the seanchan, and GAWYN winning, even if by the skin of his teeth? that means he still won against THREE opponents, which, most people dont win against ONE of, if they even realize the little buggers are there in the first place. oh and he did it blind, a situation when 1 person vs 3 normal persons probably wouldnt swing towards the one person winning.

 

rbs out

 

No one has forgotten. But according to RJ and BS he is at the bottom of the list. BS even said Gawyn is luckier than he thinks in relation to that fight.

 

Which was before he was bonded *cough*

 

 

Agreed. In the new books Gawyn seems to have gone to another level with the sword. I don't think old comments by RJ bear much relevance now.

Maybe if asked today his blademaster league table would be different.

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