Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sign in to follow this  
aross

The Field of Merrilor is gonna be off 'da hook!!!!!

Recommended Posts

We already know many of the attendees of the Field of Merrilor. Already in attendance:

 

The Tower

Rand's subject nations (Tear, Illian, Arad Domon, the Aiel)

Elayne with Andor and Cairhien

Perrin with the Two Rivers, Ghealdan, Mayene, and the Whitecloaks

The Borderlanders

 

Gawyn has worried that the whole place could go up "like an Illuminator's firework." As usual, Gawyn has the brains of a donkey. Among these groups, there is no explosive potential at all. Everyone is led by an Emond's Fielder, or by Elayne. Yea, maybe they'll argue, but they'll figure it out.

 

I WANT the Illuminator's firework however, and that's why I'm trying to figure how the Sea Folk and the Seanchan figure in. Because if Tuon and her retinue show up, and Zaida and the Wavemistresses show up - and no one hates the Seanchan more than the Sea Folk - then we'll have some fun.

 

Also, per Aviendha's glimpse of the future, the Aiel must make peace if "a remnant is to be saved". The Aiel have as much cause to hate the Seanchan as the Sea Folk.

 

Right now only Perrin, among all of the leaders, know that Mat and Tuon are married. That reveal ought to be fun too, considering most of them used to like Mat. He won't be viewed so warmly by any of them (especially Elayne and the Tower women!).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Gawyn has worried that the whole place could go up "like an Illuminator's firework." As usual, Gawyn has the brains of a donkey. Among these groups, there is no explosive potential at all. Everyone is led by an Emond's Fielder, or by Elayne. Yea, maybe they'll argue, but they'll figure it out.

 

I WANT the Illuminator's firework however, and that's why I'm trying to figure how the Sea Folk and the Seanchan figure in. Because if Tuon and her retinue show up, and Zaida and the Wavemistresses show up - and no one hates the Seanchan more than the Sea Folk - then we'll have some fun.

 

The world's leaders aren't the only ones present - the Borderland armies are there, Rand's Aiel, as well as Tear's host.

 

I have a feeling that the spark in this particular gasoline keg will be the Traitor Reveals, when all the most highly placed Compulsion-victims and Darkfriends make their debut - Sorilea to the Aiel, Bashere and his Aes Sedai to the Borderlanders, and so on.

 

Once that explosion happens, Moghedien and Graendal might pop in and start trying to rack up a really high level kill count by Compelling Gawyn to kill Egwene and Alivia to kill Rand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a feeling that the spark in this particular gasoline keg will be the Traitor Reveals, when all the most highly placed Compulsion-victims and Darkfriends make their debut - Sorilea to the Aiel, Bashere and his Aes Sedai to the Borderlanders, and so on.

 

Good point Eht. Though I believe some of the Darkfriend theories are laughable, I do agree that Rand may out some. Even one Darkfriend reveal would invite mayhem if it's the right Darkfriend. Sorilea could be one such.

 

But better... what if Rand spots someone highly placed among Zaida's or Tuon's retinue? If they don't trust him yet, how will they believe it when he names someone Darkfriend? How would Galad react if Rand finds a Darkfriend among the Whitecloak officers? If you don't trust me and I turn around and name your best buddy Darkfriend, you will not care that I may be right. You won't even investigate. You'll just call me an asshole and start a fight.

Edited by aross

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a feeling that the spark in this particular gasoline keg will be the Traitor Reveals, when all the most highly placed Compulsion-victims and Darkfriends make their debut - Sorilea to the Aiel, Bashere and his Aes Sedai to the Borderlanders, and so on.

 

Good point Eht. Though I believe some of the Darkfriend theories are laughable, I do agree that Rand may out some. Even one Darkfriend reveal would invite mayhem if it's the right Darkfriend. Sorilea could be one such.

 

But better... what if Rand spots someone highly placed among Zaida's or Tuon's retinue? If they don't trust him yet, how will they believe it when he names someone Darkfriend? How would Galad react if Rand finds a Darkfriend among the Whitecloak officers? If you don't trust me and I turn around and name your best buddy Darkfriend, you will not care that I may be right. You won't even investigate. You'll just call me an asshole and start a fight.

 

Except, all Rand has to do is have the accused brought into his presence. The guilty will convict themselves when confronted by The Dragon. They literally cannot look at him or even be in his vicinity without becoming self-destructive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I strongly doubt there will be much of a flare-up, at least not between the groups gathered. Look at what is happening elsewhere in the world. Caemlyn under attack, the Seanchan about to attack the WT, the Shadow overwhelming the Borderlands, and possibly the Shadow about to attack Ebou Dar...These are things that has to be dealt with, and throwing in a showdown at FOM would make that extremely difficult to happen in a satisfying way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except, all Rand has to do is have the accused brought into his presence. The guilty will convict themselves when confronted by The Dragon. They literally cannot look at him or even be in his vicinity without becoming self-destructive.

 

That kind of assumes a couple things: First that Sorilea is dumb enough to wait for someone to accuse to accuse her of being a Darkfriend before implementing an Evil Plan . Anyone high-ranking enough to matter is going to already have their plans in place, and can do plenty of damage without coming into his presence. Sorilea is the queen of all poop-stirrers and Bashere is at the head of an army.

 

Rand already gave away the secret of his Light-Mojo by outing Weiramon and company like that. Other Darkfriends will be far more cautious.

 

More importantly, while that Mojo might work on DFs, there's nothing to show the same is true for Compulsion victims.

Emphasis "victims", people not already affiliated with the Shadow.

 

So if Bashere's under some Compulsion (like that dark shadow), Mojo isn't gonna do any good.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Except, all Rand has to do is have the accused brought into his presence. The guilty will convict themselves when confronted by The Dragon. They literally cannot look at him or even be in his vicinity without becoming self-destructive.

 

That kind of assumes a couple things: First that Sorilea is dumb enough to wait for someone to accuse to accuse her of being a Darkfriend before implementing an Evil Plan . Anyone high-ranking enough to matter is going to already have their plans in place, and can do plenty of damage without coming into his presence. Sorilea is the queen of all poop-stirrers and Bashere is at the head of an army.

 

Rand already gave away the secret of his Light-Mojo by outing Weiramon and company like that. Other Darkfriends will be far more cautious.

 

More importantly, while that Mojo might work on DFs, there's nothing to show the same is true for Compulsion victims.

Emphasis "victims", people not already affiliated with the Shadow.

 

So if Bashere's under some Compulsion (like that dark shadow), Mojo isn't gonna do any good.

 

Your point about Compulsion may or may not have merit. We haven't seen Rand in the vicinity of anyone we know to have been Compelled to work for the Dark.

 

My quick take is that the Compellor has so little respect for the one being Compelled that they would not do it in such a way that the person Compelled would believe they were doing good. At some level all the Baddies are sadists. They would want their victim to know they were doing wrong while being helpless to prevent themselves from doing it.

 

It think it's the self-knowledge of wrongdoing that what you call the Mojo exposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haven't Rand and Bashere been together since Rand's Ascension?

 

Yes. Which tends to shoot to pieces my theory that Bashere is a Baddie.

 

Yeah, I'm not inclined to think that he's a darkfriend either, because it's too easy for that to fall apart. Compulsion, on the other hand, is a nasty trick that has the potential to create insanely useful sleeper agents. The Forsaken, most particularly Ishamael, do have an understanding of the shape of the battle to come, and the quickest among them would certainly use that to good effect. Since it's a weave that can be woven by dark- or light-, I'm inclined to think of it as being outside of Rand's Mojo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Haven't Rand and Bashere been together since Rand's Ascension?

 

Yes. Which tends to shoot to pieces my theory that Bashere is a Baddie.

 

 

See

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/50915-the-davram-bashere-darkfriend-theory/page__st__40

 

my post 49, et seq.

 

My theory has always been that Slayer is not unique. He was a Proof-of-Concept. Once he proved out, in accord with what Faile remembers, there was a large raid into Saldaea. Her father led those who stopped the Darkspawn and drove them back, and pursued them into the Blight, taking some unknown time to do so with unknown results. Once he returned Tenobia exiled him for unknown reasons. He was returned to her good graces either just before or specifically to deal with the problem of Mazrim Taim, for which he had Cadsuane's help. Even so Taim was beating them both quite handily until the sky lit up with Rand's battle with Ba'alzamon at Falme.

 

Even though he was dealing with the most powerful ta'veren in history, I've always thought Bashere abandoned his duty to Queen and Country and agreed to become Rand's Captain-General a little too quickly and easily. It was that act, as much as anything else, that led the Borderlanders to come south looking for the Dragon Reborn with so much of their military strength. That played straight into the Dark's need for weak Borderland countries for the opening phases of Tarmon Gaidon. Also Bashere shows up to become Rand's new best buddy just hours after Lanfear and whatever influence she had over Rand disappears, leaving the Dark with nobody who has even a clue what Rand might be up to going forward. It was going to be weeks to months before Osan'gar, Aran'gar or Moridin would be fit for service. Demandred was the only one who was available and Bashere shows up.

 

Explanation - Bashandred. A creature like Slayer who contains the souls of two different individuals. And, who, like Slayer, decides which he will be as he enters and leaves Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Would such a creature have an alter-ego? If so who would it be? Davram Bashere? Or, Barid Bel Medar aka Demandred?

 

If he could be Bashandred, would such a creature have the same reaction to MahatmaRand as your average Darkfriend? Or would he react more like Bashere did at Maradon?

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, maybe I missed something... why do you (to those of you who DO think this way) think Sorilea is a darkfriend? I have yet to see her do anything but fight/hate the shadow. What are you drawing this opinion from?

 

And you do not need to be a darkfriend to have have hidden motives...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, maybe I missed something... why do you (to those of you who DO think this way) think Sorilea is a darkfriend? I have yet to see her do anything but fight/hate the shadow. What are you drawing this opinion from?

 

And you do not need to be a darkfriend to have have hidden motives...

 

I'm not sure where the Sorilea hate is coming from either. Probably the fact that it seems that Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Sorilea cooperate in a lot of stuff and there's a strong case that can be made that Amys is Dark. She is the only one outside Rand's inner circle who was told about Rand's attack on Rahvin, yet by the time Nynaeve captured her, Moghedien knew. She couldn't have gotten that info by spying on anyone's dreams either because none of those who knew directly other than Rand slept that night, and Rand was already guarding his dreams. The implication is that Rhuarc is also Dark and probably Melaine, as well. Maybe even the majority of Rhuarc's clan.

 

Given how well Rhuarc and Berelain have gotten along, you've gotta wonder how dedicated to the Light she is, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, maybe I missed something... why do you (to those of you who DO think this way) think Sorilea is a darkfriend? I have yet to see her do anything but fight/hate the shadow. What are you drawing this opinion from?

 

And you do not need to be a darkfriend to have have hidden motives...

 

I'm not sure where the Sorilea hate is coming from either. Probably the fact that it seems that Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Sorilea cooperate in a lot of stuff and there's a strong case that can be made that Amys is Dark. She is the only one outside Rand's inner circle who was told about Rand's attack on Rahvin, yet by the time Nynaeve captured her, Moghedien knew. She couldn't have gotten that info by spying on anyone's dreams either because none of those who knew directly other than Rand slept that night, and Rand was already guarding his dreams. The implication is that Rhuarc is also Dark and probably Melaine, as well. Maybe even the majority of Rhuarc's clan.

 

Given how well Rhuarc and Berelain have gotten along, you've gotta wonder how dedicated to the Light she is, too.

 

 

Sorilea is the leading candidate that helped Elza and Semirhage get the male a'dam out of Cadsuane's warded box. In an earlier chapter, Sorilea was walking into the room as Cadsuane was removing the wards. As a channeler, she could have learned the weaves to remove the wards. Cadsuane was also with the wise ones when the a'dam was taken from the box. Sorilea showed Elza how to remove the wards (in my opinion).

 

Also, the male access key was in the same room, but untouched. Cadsuane never mentioned the male access key to Sorilea; therefore, she didn't mention it to Elza; therefore, it wasn't taken.

Edited by Pinzarn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, maybe I missed something... why do you (to those of you who DO think this way) think Sorilea is a darkfriend? I have yet to see her do anything but fight/hate the shadow. What are you drawing this opinion from?

 

And you do not need to be a darkfriend to have have hidden motives...

 

I'm not sure where the Sorilea hate is coming from either. Probably the fact that it seems that Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Sorilea cooperate in a lot of stuff and there's a strong case that can be made that Amys is Dark. She is the only one outside Rand's inner circle who was told about Rand's attack on Rahvin, yet by the time Nynaeve captured her, Moghedien knew. She couldn't have gotten that info by spying on anyone's dreams either because none of those who knew directly other than Rand slept that night, and Rand was already guarding his dreams. The implication is that Rhuarc is also Dark and probably Melaine, as well. Maybe even the majority of Rhuarc's clan.

 

Given how well Rhuarc and Berelain have gotten along, you've gotta wonder how dedicated to the Light she is, too.

 

 

Sorilea is the leading candidate that helped Elza and Semirhage get the male a'dam out of Cadsuane's warded box. In an earlier chapter, Sorilea was walking into the room as Cadsuane was removing the wards. As a channeler, she could have learned the weaves to remove the wards. Cadsuane was also with the wise ones when the a'dam was taken from the box. Sorilea showed Elza how to remove the wards (in my opinion).

 

Also, the male access key was in the same room, but untouched. Cadsuane never mentioned the male access key to Sorilea; therefore, she didn't mention it to Elza; therefore, it wasn't taken.

 

After double-checking, Sorilea didn't show Elza anything. Elza got all of her instructions from Shaidar Haran.

 

Also, Bair was present with Sorilea when Cadsuane opened the box that contained the male a'dam and the male access key. So, Sorilea wasn't the only one who may have had knowledge of how to remove those wards.

 

We tend to think that anything one channeler can do all other channelers can do. Not true. So, there is no certainty that either Bair or Sorilea could have duplicated the weave necessary to remove Cadsuane's Wards on that box. Especially given that the Wards were inverted and invisible, so they might not have seen everything she did in the context of removing a series of Wards.

 

A Fade, hidden in a shadow, and looking for a way to free Semirhage and capture Rand, would likely be paying very close attention to everything Cadsuane did.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, maybe I missed something... why do you (to those of you who DO think this way) think Sorilea is a darkfriend? I have yet to see her do anything but fight/hate the shadow. What are you drawing this opinion from?

 

It's not a matter of hate, but an existing theory based on the fact that two or three people had on-screen access to the knowledge that Cadsuane possessed the sad bracelets, and only two of those knew about the specially warded chest. Personally, I think Sorilea's a great character, and having her turn out to be a major darkfriend (Dreadlord might be a better word) wouldn't hurt my opinion of her any. Really, the Aiel are due for some actual EVIL people being outed, not just the Shaido dynamic, those who aren't actually evil, but misguided. They're the perfect place for it, and Sorilea would be an ideal candidate for conversion.

 

It's mentioned that Bair is a possible candidate as well, since she was present, but it's notable that she is not a channeler, and therefore is good only for information. She'll know about the wards, but not the specifics. That's not necessarily a problem if the TP offers Elza obliteration weaves that won't trigger the OP, but...

 

Anyway, the other mention is that a certain Fade could have been lurking about and watching them, but that doesn't wring for me, even for SuperFade. As I recall, one of the benefits of being bonded (Cadsuane, and many of the Aes Sedai around the area) is the ability to sense things like that. That's probably why SH simply slaughtered Semirhage's prison guards.

 

There's also the point raised that one channeler cannot necessarily do what any other channeler can, and that's sort of true in Sorilea's case.... she's incredibly weak. However, that doesn't prevent her from learning the Gate weave that she is too weak to use, and then showing Cadsuane how to use it. The woman has an incredibly sharp mind, and also the ability to teach a certain other rare (to Aes Sedai like Elza) ability - unweaving. She knows how to put them together, and how to take them apart.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, maybe I missed something... why do you (to those of you who DO think this way) think Sorilea is a darkfriend? I have yet to see her do anything but fight/hate the shadow. What are you drawing this opinion from?

 

And you do not need to be a darkfriend to have have hidden motives...

 

I'm not sure where the Sorilea hate is coming from either. Probably the fact that it seems that Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Sorilea cooperate in a lot of stuff and there's a strong case that can be made that Amys is Dark. She is the only one outside Rand's inner circle who was told about Rand's attack on Rahvin, yet by the time Nynaeve captured her, Moghedien knew. She couldn't have gotten that info by spying on anyone's dreams either because none of those who knew directly other than Rand slept that night, and Rand was already guarding his dreams. The implication is that Rhuarc is also Dark and probably Melaine, as well. Maybe even the majority of Rhuarc's clan.

 

Given how well Rhuarc and Berelain have gotten along, you've gotta wonder how dedicated to the Light she is, too.

 

 

Sorilea is the leading candidate that helped Elza and Semirhage get the male a'dam out of Cadsuane's warded box. In an earlier chapter, Sorilea was walking into the room as Cadsuane was removing the wards. As a channeler, she could have learned the weaves to remove the wards. Cadsuane was also with the wise ones when the a'dam was taken from the box. Sorilea showed Elza how to remove the wards (in my opinion).

 

Also, the male access key was in the same room, but untouched. Cadsuane never mentioned the male access key to Sorilea; therefore, she didn't mention it to Elza; therefore, it wasn't taken.

 

After double-checking, Sorilea didn't show Elza anything. Elza got all of her instructions from Shaidar Haran.

 

Also, Bair was present with Sorilea when Cadsuane opened the box that contained the male a'dam and the male access key. So, Sorilea wasn't the only one who may have had knowledge of how to remove those wards.

 

We tend to think that anything one channeler can do all other channelers can do. Not true. So, there is no certainty that either Bair or Sorilea could have duplicated the weave necessary to remove Cadsuane's Wards on that box. Especially given that the Wards were inverted and invisible, so they might not have seen everything she did in the context of removing a series of Wards.

 

A Fade, hidden in a shadow, and looking for a way to free Semirhage and capture Rand, would likely be paying very close attention to everything Cadsuane did.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but Bair can't channel, right? So that would make Sorilea the only candidate that could pull this off.

 

I have loved Sorilea for a LONG time, so it would be great if she actually turned out to be a darkfriend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
After double-checking, Sorilea didn't show Elza anything. Elza got all of her instructions from Shaidar Haran.

 

Also, Bair was present with Sorilea when Cadsuane opened the box that contained the male a'dam and the male access key. So, Sorilea wasn't the only one who may have had knowledge of how to remove those wards.

 

We tend to think that anything one channeler can do all other channelers can do. Not true. So, there is no certainty that either Bair or Sorilea could have duplicated the weave necessary to remove Cadsuane's Wards on that box. Especially given that the Wards were inverted and invisible, so they might not have seen everything she did in the context of removing a series of Wards.

 

A Fade, hidden in a shadow, and looking for a way to free Semirhage and capture Rand, would likely be paying very close attention to everything Cadsuane did.

 

The Aiel have shown a skill in quickly learning weaves after only seeing them once. So for Sorilea to see and learn the weaves that easily, I am not surprised.

 

Many things happen off-screen that we learn about later, sometimes books later. Right now, we don't have any proof of who un-warded the box, but Sorilea is the leading candidate. Sure, Elza could have done it off screen as well, buy one has to start throwing more far-fetched speculation on how she unwarded the box.

 

Also, it would be just as far-fetched (unless I missed something) that a Fade or Super-Fade can read, describe, or negate weaves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct me if I am wrong, but Bair can't channel, right? So that would make Sorilea the only candidate that could pull this off.

 

I have loved Sorilea for a LONG time, so it would be great if she actually turned out to be a darkfriend.

 

After consulting the easiest source to Cut and Paste, Encylopaedia WOT:

 

Bair: A Wise One of the Haido sept of the Shaarad Aiel. A dreamwalker. She cannot channel. She has outlived three husbands.

 

So, if Sorilea can pick-up a weave just by seeing it once ( which is not certain ) she does indeed become the prime suspect for who supplied Shaidar Haran with the information he gave Elza about how to get the male a'dam. Occam's Razor would support the idea that she dunnit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shaidar Haran was able to detect the residue of a Gateway and can tell the difference between Saidin and Saidar. I dont think its too much of a stretch that the superfade was able to discover the location for himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh it's going to be an intense chapter.

 

There will be confrontations and drama...but no epic battle there. Look at the chapter where Rand waltzes into the WT. THAT could have been a powder-keg and instead it was tense, but fairly calm.

 

 

Same sort of thing will occur here. Rand-aura will hold most if not all the people. Perrin-aura will fill in the blanks. I hope Mat manages to make it there in time, because he's going to have a lot to do in AMoL and that'll be the chapter for him to get info and tasks.

 

 

Also, I've been very much looking forward to the reunification of the 3 since they all grew into their own. And then HUZZAH, no more 'weird patterns of lights' when they talk about each other...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a feeling that the spark in this particular gasoline keg will be the Traitor Reveals, when all the most highly placed Compulsion-victims and Darkfriends make their debut - Sorilea to the Aiel, Bashere and his Aes Sedai to the Borderlanders, and so on.

Sorilea, yes. Bashere, unlikely. I doubt this will be 'the' spark exactly, since the day has to start with Rand waking up from that dream, and while it's possible that Rand will have an anticlimactic reaction to that, it's likely he won't.

 

Once that explosion happens, Moghedien and Graendal might pop in and start trying to rack up a really high level kill count by Compelling Gawyn to kill Egwene and Alivia to kill Rand.

Graendal, maybe. Though I doubt the killing of Rand will come about via Compulsion at all. I think Moghedien will be busy, along with Lanfear, in guarding the dreamspike. After all, why not mindtrap Mesaana? Those two are valuable to Moridin, and their transgressions were simply an excuse to secure the plan. IMO.

 

How would Galad react if Rand finds a Darkfriend among the Whitecloak officers? If you don't trust me and I turn around and name your best buddy Darkfriend, you will not care that I may be right. You won't even investigate. You'll just call me an asshole and start a fight.
Interview: Sep 2nd, 2005

DragonCon Report - Emma

 

Question

If Galad and Rand were to fight with swords who would win? (laughter)

Robert Jordan

Well it's not going to happen. I would say Rand would, at least until recently.

 

Except, all Rand has to do is have the accused brought into his presence. The guilty will convict themselves when confronted by The Dragon. They literally cannot look at him or even be in his vicinity without becoming self-destructive.

I doubt it will be this simple and easy. For one thing, someone with as strong a will as Sorilea might well be able to resist the effects, even if Rand is channeling, much the same way as come people can resist Compulsion and some people can resist Rand's ta'veren effects (if it's important enough to them). Weiramon is a pussy.

 

I strongly doubt there will be much of a flare-up, at least not between the groups gathered. Look at what is happening elsewhere in the world. Caemlyn under attack, the Seanchan about to attack the WT, the Shadow overwhelming the Borderlands, and possibly the Shadow about to attack Ebou Dar...These are things that has to be dealt with, and throwing in a showdown at FOM would make that extremely difficult to happen in a satisfying way.

I agree it will mostly end up being a staging ground, but that doesn't mean there won't be any throwdown before that point. Certain types of throwdown can be resolved quickly. The Sorilea throwdown is going to happen whenever Cadsuane figures out what is going on. That's foreshadowed.

 

TITLE: Crown of Swords

CHAPTER: 36 - Blade

 

"Be quiet!" Cadsuane roared, slapping her hands together in a thundercrack. "You, girl. He needs his bed. Hop!" Nandera hopped. Rand was stripped and in his bed in a twinkling, with Samitsu and Niande both hovering over him, the Cairhienin chased out and Nandera at the door repeating Cadsuane's instructions that he was not to be disturbed by anyone, all so fast Min felt dizzy. She hoped one day to see the confrontation between Cadsuane and the Wise One Sorilea; it had to come, and it would be memorable.

I wonder if Cadsuane will pull a Vandene and take out Sorilea in a way that exposes her to being killed by other Darkfriends. She's definitely got 'blaze of glory' written all over her.

 

That kind of assumes a couple things: First that Sorilea is dumb enough to wait for someone to accuse to accuse her of being a Darkfriend before implementing an Evil Plan ™. Anyone high-ranking enough to matter is going to already have their plans in place, and can do plenty of damage without coming into his presence. Sorilea is the queen of all poop-stirrers and Bashere is at the head of an army.

Bashere will IMO most likely get killed when he goes after the Legion of the Dragon, which is probably controlled by Darkfriends. That's his 'something dark'.

 

Haven't Rand and Bashere been together since Rand's Ascension?

Yes. Which tends to shoot to pieces my theory that Bashere is a Baddie.

I have always felt like his POV rules him out as a Darkfriend, not necessarily because of anything he revealed in his thoughts—RJ was very careful about that—but because of what happened in that POV (his tent being ransacked, presumably for the seals, and his wife being attacked). And this is what caused him to go after Rand, and he told Rand everything with a great deal of concern. The scene with Torkumen kind of nailed it, though I suppose it's possible that Bashere has a will as strong as Sorilea's. He was brave enough to throw a knife at Rand's head in LOC. He was just trying to make a point, though, and you'd think a Darkfriend wouldn't be so ballsy as to risk his own life like that. And he does seem to genuinely love his wife.

 

Ok, maybe I missed something... why do you (to those of you who DO think this way) think Sorilea is a darkfriend? I have yet to see her do anything but fight/hate the shadow. What are you drawing this opinion from?

I gathered the evidence a while back. I think maybe I should have written the theory differently, because I feel the need to be thorough, and the evidence starts out pretty weak, and most people give up before too long and therefore miss the progression of evidence throughout the series. (Like these guys, who appear to be the soft underbelly of Dragonmount.)

 

The most compelling parts to me—aside from the blatant foreshadowing in Min's POV I quoted above—were the parts with Verin. Because while Verin might not have been officially in on the fact that Sorilea was a Darkfriend, this was something she had been studying for 70 years, and it's unlikely she would have missed it. The comments are careful, but they say a lot when you put them together. Little details, like the fact that Sorilea was the one to give Verin the poison to kill Cadsuane, and the fact that Verin thought there might be 'safety, of a sort' in the fact that Sorilea was in charge of the Wise Ones. The fact that Sorilea intimidated Verin. The fact that Amys and Sorilea had a battle over leadership of the Wise Ones, and over whether or not they would use the Power in battle. Sorilea championed the cause of using it. And god, what a nice, evil thing for RJ to do to us, with the way he had her proclaim it. One of the most awesome, exciting moments in the series—Sorilea's little declaration of war. Makes us feel all warm and fuzzy inside...until we reread the series after having read the last book. :biggrin: The fact that Sorilea smelled intensely satisfied when the Aes Sedai prisoners were given to her, and the fact that Katerine escaped. The fact that Sorilea was clearly thrilled when Min said that Sorilea would serve Rand. Hardly a thing for any Aiel to be happy about, much less the one who believes she should always be in charge, and always gets her way. She was happy because it gave Rand a reason to trust her. We've all seen how that viewing worked for Elza. The fact that Sorilea essentially tortured Min to get as many viewings out of her as possible.

 

That's the meat of it. Then there are things that are icing on the cake. Like the fact that Sorilea contradicted herself on whether or not Rand should be hard. Nearly right after she's introduced, she says Rand must be hard to lead the Aiel. Then, when Cadsuane stupidly tells her what her objectives are, Sorilea tells Cadsuane what she wants to hear—that Rand should be strong rather than hard—and immediately puts Cadsuane in her debt. In one stroke, she sealed the deal that would lead Cadsuane to be vulnerable to her at the right time, and she foreshadowed the fact that she can demonstrate weaves even if she's not strong enough to make them work. Of course, that gets way into meat territory, but the contradiction was a nice touch, and not likely to be accidental. And then there is the fact that Sorilea is almost always described in negative language. Linda has done great work on this sort of thing at 13th Depository, showing how RJ did this subtly with all Darkfriends. With Sorilea, you get multiple 'harridan' remarks, even 'harridan to give you nightmares', and it's all 'haha isn't she just awesome like that'. She makes Perrin's blood run cold and gives Verin the creeps. If just one or two or even three of those clues stood alone, it would be one thing, but all this is just a pervasive aspect of Sorilea's character. There's practically no time spent developing her outside painting her as an evil woman who comes across to the unwary as being just like Cadsuane—a strong-willed woman who has her shit together. She is that, but she's not Cadsuane.

 

I'm not sure where the Sorilea hate is coming from either.

It's not Sorilea-hate. She's a fantastic character. She's just a little on the red-handed side at this point.

 

Probably the fact that it seems that Amys, Bair, Melaine, and Sorilea cooperate in a lot of stuff and there's a strong case that can be made that Amys is Dark. She is the only one outside Rand's inner circle who was told about Rand's attack on Rahvin, yet by the time Nynaeve captured her, Moghedien knew. She couldn't have gotten that info by spying on anyone's dreams either because none of those who knew directly other than Rand slept that night, and Rand was already guarding his dreams.

Why don't you think they slept that night? Rand announced that he would go after Rahvin the day before he actually did. In either case, they can enter Tel'aran'rhiod during the daytime, and that's where Moghedien was seen spying on the Lanfear alliance.

 

After double-checking, Sorilea didn't show Elza anything. Elza got all of her instructions from Shaidar Haran.

There's nothing that says Elza got her instructions exclusively from Shaidar Haran. I believe that Brandon gave a pretty good Aes Sedai answer here:

 

Interview: Nov 15th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Freelancer (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

He doesn't say that Shaidar Haran gives her this knowledge...just that the knowledge is part of what made her a tool of Shaidar Haran. If Shaidar Haran actually could teach weaves, then it would have to be the True Power, and while it's possible they granted Elza access knowing she would be killed and that it didn't matter, it still seems doubtful. Also, while it's possible to do some things with the True Power that you can't do with the One Power—like disarm inverted traps, which the Forsaken can't do—you have to wonder why none of those given access to the True Power have done so already if it was that easy. Why not disarm the traps on Callandor? All evidence suggests that you have to know the specific weave(s) used by the person who made the trap in the first place.

 

A Fade, hidden in a shadow, and looking for a way to free Semirhage and capture Rand, would likely be paying very close attention to everything Cadsuane did.
Shaidar Haran was able to detect the residue of a Gateway and can tell the difference between Saidin and Saidar. I dont think its too much of a stretch that the superfade was able to discover the location for himself.

Brandon has also said that Shaidar Haran has certain limitations when it comes to people who haven't sworn to serve the Dark One.

 

Interview: Nov 10th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - Lexington, KY (Paraphrased)

BRANDON SANDERSON

Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.

Interview: Nov 16th, 2009

TGS Signing Report - kcf (Paraphrased)

 

QUESTION

You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Shaidar Haran needs a minion to do most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done. This lead to lots of discussion about swearing to the Shadow—basically, it's a very bad idea and you forfeit some very basic protections when you do. Shaidar Haran has special power over those that swear to the Dark One, and the Forsaken in particular. I asked about Alviarin's special mark, and he said Shaidar Haran has similar power over her. The implication is that there are lots of ramifications for swearing to the Dark One. Brandon mentioned that this makes Verin all the more remarkable.

The most logical explanation is that Sorilea taught the weaves to Elza, and Elza was used with Semirhage because she was dispensable. Sorilea, on the other hand, is essential.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...