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Zappa3837

Moiraine is My Hero

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I love Nynaeve, Perrin, Rand, Mat, and Egwene, and I understand Two Rivers folk are stubborn and Bullheaded, I also understand Robert Jordan, unlike Tolkien and many others that came before Jordan, Robert Jordan wants his characters to be more wary, skeptical, and not so eager to trust outsiders who tell them they are "chosen" for soe special task (I heard Robert Jordan mention something to this effect in an interview, but I'm almost finished with Shadow Rising, and none of these characters I've mentioned (especially Nynaeve, who is one of my absolute favorites) have come to realize that Moiraine is not the enemy, but their greatest advocate (at least so far as I can see). I get what Jordan was doing, and I admire it, it was a very pioneering move, but he took it to0 far; the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Frankly, it's starting to get on my nerves a little (possibly, i just need to be more patient, there are 10 more books to go for me. Maybe Jordan is just using a long period of time to build the tension up surrounding the Moiraine issue, only to resolve sometime in one of the novels 5-14. I have to say, if this is so, it would be a master stroke on Jordans part. After all, the greater the tension, and the longer its drawn out, the greater the satisfaction when it resolves. It would be well worth a little annoyance to experience something like that.

 

However, Jordan did allude a couple of times, I think with Perrin once, and definitely with Nynaeve, that even though they talk massive s*** on Moiraine, they realize on some level that if it wasn't for her and Lan, they, and all of the two rivers folk, would be dead, and if she hadn't pulled Rand out of the two rivers, he'd be dead, thereby dooming the world to be shaped in the image of the dark one for all time. For this reason, MOIRAINE IS MY HERO. She's not very celebrated by any of the characters, nor does she ask to be. She does what needs to be done, and doesn't ask for a pat on the back. It's time everybody wakes the eff up, and give credit where credit is do. Hopefully as I read on, or listen on because I'm doing the audiobook thing (I know, that probably disgusts some of you), more of that starts to happen, an open recognition and acknowledgment of who and what she really is. I might be pushing it, but hopefully somebody expresses a little gratitude, and (this is pushing it even further) maybe an apology or two for treating her like s**t time and again for saving lives. Something like: "Hey Moiraine, I know we've been ungrateful little brats to you even though without you we'd all be dead and the dark one would have won the last battle (if there even was one without the Dragon Reborn, who'd be dead without Moiraine), but we now realize all you've done for us, and for the world, so please forgive our foolishness." Again I love Nynaeve, Perrin, Rand, Mat, and Egwene with all my heart, but their are always things you do not like about your favorite characters, or even your best friends and significant others. Calling them out on their BS doesn't mean you don't love them, in fact, it's quite the opposite. One of these five needs to wise up, and speak some truth to the other four.

 

Again, I'm only on shadow Rising, so I don't know what happens. Although i doubt it, for all I know Moiraine could end up being black Ajah, or some sort of dark friend; or, everybody will do as I think they should and start giving Moiraine credit, and trusting her a little more. If you respond to this,which I hope you do, please try not to give me any spoilers (although, obviously, you are free to do as you wish, I only ask that you don't). What I really want, is for you to try to view this from the perspective of only having read this first fout books (roughly). How did you feel about this when you were where I am now. Do you agree with me, or disagree, and why? Or maybe you agree with some of what I'm saying, and disagree withg other parts (the more likely scenario). If this is the case, what do you agree with, and what do you disagree with, and why?

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Hi there I must say I did kind of agree with you when I first read the books but I never let it get to me too much. There's still a long way for you to go and so much awesome twists and turns to come.

 

One thing I want to stress to you more than anything else though is that you should read/listen to the books before coming on here because if anyone does spoil anything for you I think you will regret it, I know I would've. Ultimately the choice is yours but hearing about massive events to come through somebody else will never EVER be the same as reading them as RJ intended them. I hope you are enjoying The Shadow Rising as I think it is the best book in the series :)

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I sympathize with your frustration about the Two River's folk not trusting and dogging on Moiraine. I don't think it's overdone, though, and in all fairness, and as awesome as Moiraine is, her trust issues with the Two River's folk are at least partly her fault. And get going on those next books. I'll just say that something big happens in the upcoming books with regard to Moiraine's story-arc, and it makes it almost impossible to talk about these issues without risking major spoilers.

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Have you read New Spring? I would recommend reading it after book 5 or 6. I think you'll love it and it really does flesh out Moiraine's personality, and you'll at least understand part of the reason she acts the way she does.

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As for being annoyed by the youngsters, oh yes, I was literally banging my head to my desk both during my first read and now during my re-read. I can understand their skepticism, and nor is it completely unfounded since most Aes Sedai indeed have their own schemes. If they only had realized the full extent of what they face and how little they can trust everyone else... they'd probably have appreciated Moiraine more.

 

Two examples that come to mind is when the boys do not tell Moiraine about their dreams, and when Min does not tell Moiraine that Lanfear walked up to her and said that Rand was hers. I wanted to scream at their stupidity (I can't remember if I actually did...).

 

 

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I agree with you. I love Moiraine. I think the Three Rivers kids were raised in a very small village and were told negative and fearsome stories about Aes Sedai. We see how the village men first react after Moiraine and Lan saved the village from Trollocs and Moiraine heals many of the villagers. Grateful? Hardly.

 

Moiraine also holds her cards close to the vest, so to speak, and it leaves them with doubts and fears and unable to trust her fully.

 

Read "New Spring." It answers lots of questions about Moiraine and the Aes Sedai in general. I had so many questions about them that were answered in that book.

Edited by Ryrin

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All she had to do was not be such a bitch and everyone would like her a whole lot more. Like maybe reveal just a SMALL piece of knowledge here and there so they feel comfortable with her and what she has in mind. Have to give trust to get it back. Instead, she just constantly told everyone "THE SHADOW WILL COSNUME YOUR SOULS IF YOU DONT LISTEN TO ME" and used that to boss them around.

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Ever tried to make a group of teenagers do something they dont want to do? I am a huge Moiraine fan I dig the two rivers group, I think it is a pretty accurate description of reality. Teenagers are angsty whiny know it alls, I know I used to be one, and an adult never knows better than they and their friends do. Just my two cents.

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Moiraine is awesome, but she is just as distrusting towards Rand as the 2 Rivers folk are to her. She wanted Rand to attack Illian when he figured out to go to Rhuidean. She also argued persistently against Rand leading the Aiel across the dragonwall. She was one of the few on his side, and Rand unfairly treated her like shit, but she brought some on herself. Her attitude is understandable, though, since she committed her whole life to finding him and helping him meet the last battle.

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All she had to do was not be such a bitch and everyone would like her a whole lot more. Like maybe reveal just a SMALL piece of knowledge here and there so they feel comfortable with her and what she has in mind. Have to give trust to get it back. Instead, she just constantly told everyone "THE SHADOW WILL COSNUME YOUR SOULS IF YOU DONT LISTEN TO ME" and used that to boss them around.

 

Lol, agree with this. I'm one of the very few people who can't stand Moiraine and just wanted to see Nynaeve box her ears...

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All she had to do was not be such a bitch and everyone would like her a whole lot more. Like maybe reveal just a SMALL piece of knowledge here and there so they feel comfortable with her and what she has in mind. Have to give trust to get it back. Instead, she just constantly told everyone "THE SHADOW WILL COSNUME YOUR SOULS IF YOU DONT LISTEN TO ME" and used that to boss them around.

 

Lol, agree with this. I'm one of the very few people who can't stand Moiraine and just wanted to see Nynaeve box her ears...

 

ha i actually liked moiraine, but i did think her behavior with the two rivers group was a little ridiculous. moiraine was the only aes sedai in the series who really retained that "aes sedai status" of mystique, power, knowledge, etc.

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I Love Moiraine. I think her character is spot on for her situation. As some have said, NS does flesh some things out. She has the most important "job" in the whole world, the best way to keep things secret is to say nothing to nobody. She also does not know who the Dragon Reborn is at the start, granted she has a good idea (and I hate they cut that line out from the NS from Legends, made for a nice laugh). But anyone of them could have been a DF that destroyed everything she worked for. But it is also a theame for the whole book, no one talks to each other about what they are going to do, or trust each other. Even though they showed they can trust them. But there is good reasons why, when you look at actions and who to trust, some people turn out interesting. (sorry if the last sentece dont make sence, don't want to creat spoilers. I was thinking of the dress color comment made later in the books and its revelation)

 

Of all the AS, Moiraine holds to the spirit of what being an AS is the most. Yes, there are some others, but Moiraine is just well, awsome. She sees her duty clear and will do anything to see that the Light wins. On re-reads I am always struck by the line in EotW that she will destroy them to keep the DO from getting them.

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Moiraine also annoyed me all through the series the first time I read it. But, after re-reading it, knowing what happens already and how it effects the whole world, its much easier to understand why she is the way she is. Hindsight is a fantastic thing sometimes. Teenagers are difficult, and sometimes need strong discipline from an authority figure who wont back down and give in to their whims. She had to be tough or the world would end,thats just it.

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I used to like her, but Moiraine kind of annoyed me MORE on my last re-read. It almost seemed to me like every move she made was calculated to drive Rand further away from her. For the most part, she was one of the worst when it came to the whole "I know better than you because I'm Aes Sedai" attitude.

 

Yeah, I get her reasoning, and her motives. She was doing the right thing, but she was going about it in an entirely wrong way.

 

For example, telling the boys that she would destroy them herself before letting the Shadow have them ... Her point comes across, but I know my reaction as a teenager would have been "Get this crazy *$@ away from me".

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Thank you guys for all of your responses! I seriously did not expect anything close to this amount of feedback. Also, let me apologize for being delayed in responding back to you. In the last 5-or-so days, I have been entirely consumed with the task of getting all of my law school application materials in to the LSAC.

 

It is apparent that I have overlooked some things, which some of you have helped me to see clearly. Like Ryrin said, Moiraine does hold her cards really close to her vest, and like Rand and the others, I would be less inclined to follow someone if I didn't have a clear idea of where that person was going and why. Just by being a little more informative, Moiraine could have most likely dispelled the majority of the trust issues between her and the Two Rivers folk, and by doing so, she would have made it more likely that Rand and co. would have done things her way; but alas, the wheel weaves as the wheel wills.

 

I just started "Shadow Rising", and something I had mentioned that I would like to see happen has already happened, albeit in a different manner than I envisioned it happening if it were to happen at all. Rand apologizes to Moiraine, although only after she apologizes to him. At least in this situation, I still think Moiraine is more of the adult.

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You know what is really interesting - to me at least - about Moiraine? Its that, for such an iconic character,

 

SPOILERS FOR BOOKS 5 - 13 FOLLOW!!!

 

 

SPOILERS FOR BOOKS 5 - 13 FOLLOW!!!

 

 

 

 

shes actually in very LITTLE of the series. And the next book is both the 14th and final volume. Moiaine can truthfully be said to have had significant screentime in Books 1, 3, 4 and 5 only. ... She was in Book 2, but just barely. Then not at all for Books 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12. ... She is only in the very end of Book 13.

 

Truth is, interestingly, that this 'Main' Character is OUT of much more of thr series than she is in it.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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I hope the OP doesn't read this thread anymore, because the above is a major spoiler on his/her continued reading.

 

I thought about that, and wasn't trying to be inconsiderate, but this Board's Official Policy is all spoilers allowed through Towers of Midnight now...Also, Book Five came out SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO...how long can consideration of spoilers really remain in effect, lol??

 

Plus, noone has mentioned any SPECIFIC details, if you know what I mean.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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I hope the OP doesn't read this thread anymore, because the above is a major spoiler on his/her continued reading.

 

I thought about that, and wasn't trying to be inconsiderate, but this Board's Official Policy is all spoilers allowed through Towers of Midnight now...Also, Book Five came out SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO...how long can consideration of spoilers really remain in effect, lol??

 

Plus, noone has mentioned any SPECIFIC details, if you know what I mean.

 

 

Fish

 

Fish, please, at least put it in spoiler tags. The thread creator was commenting up until this point in the series and specifically asked for no spoilers beyond where he (?) was. It's just common decency. If this was another thread where people were discussing the whole series and the TC read through it and spoiled himself that would be one thing. Please do the right thing for the TC's sake.

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I hope the OP doesn't read this thread anymore, because the above is a major spoiler on his/her continued reading.

 

I thought about that, and wasn't trying to be inconsiderate, but this Board's Official Policy is all spoilers allowed through Towers of Midnight now...Also, Book Five came out SEVENTEEN YEARS AGO...how long can consideration of spoilers really remain in effect, lol??

 

Plus, noone has mentioned any SPECIFIC details, if you know what I mean.

 

 

Fish

 

Fish, please, at least put it in spoiler tags. The thread creator was commenting up until this point in the series and specifically asked for no spoilers beyond where he (?) was. It's just common decency. If this was another thread where people were discussing the whole series and the TC read through it and spoiled himself that would be one thing. Please do the right thing for the TC's sake.

 

Agitel...I didn't realize the OP had specifically asked for no Moiraine spoilers within THIS thread. Probably because it was in the very last paragraph and I admittedly skimmed. Still, Im sorry. Oversight on my part. Ill edit my post for the OP.

 

 

Fish

Edited by The Fisher King

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One thing to keep in mind is the different perspective you have as a reader vs what the characters have.

 

As a reader, you KNOW that the dark one is real and what is at stake. For the characters, their perspective is different. For the last 3000 years or so everything has been pretty quiet. Most people outside of the borderlands don't even believe in Trollocs.

 

Add to the fact that Aes Sedai do have a really bad reputation and the fact that Moiriane isn't exactly forthcoming with all of her information and you can see the paranoia. It makes complete sense, even though as readers (who've gotten peaks inside Moiriane's head) know that she's one of the good guys.

 

Look at our society... How would you react if some priest (whom most people at least respect and consider nice) came to your town, picked 3 random kids and ran away with them while saying that they were pivotal to saving the world from an anti-Christ?

 

Looking back to Moiriane (also one of my favorites), she HAS manipulated them quite a bit. Rand especially.

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As others have said, the reactions of the Emond's Fielders is pretty typical human behavior. On top of that, Moiraine is pretty heavy-handed. They regard Aes Sedai with suspicion to start with, then she threatens them. Even when they start to more or less trust her, she tries to make them do things her way despite the fact she has no real idea herself what they have to be doing.

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I am, like almost everyone who has read all of the books to date, a fan of Moiraine.

 

That said...

 

For the supposed expert on the people of the Two Rivers, she sure picked the wrong way to deal with them, didn't she? Imperious, manipulative, deliberately maintaining an air of mystery, reeking of classism and urbanite disdain for the hicks...

 

Of course they don't like or trust her, until they get to know her. I wouldn't, either. Add to that the fact that she is a member of an institution that is (must...control...self) ummm, let's say, "Not universally revered" and you really can't expect any love for Moiraine until her moment of awesome.

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