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Randommer

We need to talk about Rand.

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So I've been meaning to do this mondo-post for ages; I'm sick atm so I might as well. Deep pre-theory breaths everyone...

 

Weird unexplained things:

1. Lord of the Morning/Prince of the Dawn. These were LTT's titles, as far as I know. At least, he claims a right to them fairly vehemently in Rand's head once or twice. Where did they come from? What do they mean? They are also used to describe Rand in a piece of prophecy at the end of...TGH, I think.

 

2. Web of white stuff in Rand's head.

 

3. Why exactly the DO would rather capture him than kill him.

 

4. How it happened that Rand turned darkside in previous lives and yet the DO didn't break free (see confusing RJ quotes; too lazy to look for them).

 

5. The land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the land, and there can be no health in us nor any good green somethingorother while he's all emo. Why, exactly?

 

6. Rand the apparent fertility god. Ta'veren works by altering probability. That's why food doesn't spoil around Mat and Perrin; their ta'veren effects are out-dicing the DO in some way. The food around them just happens, conveniently, to be fine. Apple trees re-blossoming and growing new fruit in the space of a minute? That's impossible, and not a ta'veren thing. It's obviously related to the 'the land is one with the Dragon' thing, but what I'm wondering is how does that work? RJ worked out the mechanics of things very carefully, so what exactly is Rand that he has this special set of rules?

 

 

...And I have a big theory I was going to go into, but I'm very dizzy so I'll come back with it later. Sides, I'd like to see if anyone has any ideas or also finds this stuff strange, since I'm probably wrong.

 

EDIT: My actual theory(ish) is in post #9.

Edited by Randommer

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The Dragon becomes one with the land.... Maybe that means that he has become SO ta'veren that the entire pattern is weaving itself around him at once, as if it were an extension of him or something.

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1. Lord of the Morning/Prince of the Dawn. These were LTT's titles, as far as I know. At least, he claims a right to them fairly vehemently in Rand's head once or twice. Where did they come from? What do they mean? They are also used to describe Rand in a piece of prophecy at the end of...TGH, I think.

 

It's mostly symbolic I'm guessing. Dawn/morning come after the night, once shadow passes. If I had to bet, I would guess he was given these titles when he rose to great prominence before and during the War of Power, either to give people hope that the Light would eventually win led by him, or after some victory of his, perhpas with decisive action at dawn. That kind of thing.

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So I've been meaning to do this mondo-post for ages; I'm sick atm so I might as well. Deep pre-theory breaths everyone...

 

Weird unexplained things:

1. Lord of the Morning/Prince of the Dawn. These were LTT's titles, as far as I know. At least, he claims a right to them fairly vehemently in Rand's head once or twice. Where did they come from? What do they mean? They are also used to describe Rand in a piece of prophecy at the end of...TGH, I think.

 

2. Web of white stuff in Rand's head.

 

3. Why exactly the DO would rather capture him than kill him.

 

4. How it happened that Rand turned darkside in previous lives and yet the DO didn't break free (see confusing RJ quotes; too lazy to look for them).

 

5. The land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the land, and there can be no health in us nor any good green somethingorother while he's all emo. Why, exactly?

 

6. Rand the apparent fertility god. Ta'veren works by altering probability. That's why food doesn't spoil around Mat and Perrin; their ta'veren effects are out-dicing the DO in some way. The food around them just happens, conveniently, to be fine. Apple trees re-blossoming and growing new fruit in the space of a minute? That's impossible, and not a ta'veren thing. It's obviously related to the 'the land is one with the Dragon' thing, but what I'm wondering is how does that work? RJ worked out the mechanics of things very carefully, so what exactly is Rand that he has this special set of rules?

 

 

...And I have a big theory I was going to go into, but I'm very dizzy so I'll come back with it later. Sides, I'd like to see if anyone has any ideas or also finds this stuff strange, since I'm probably wrong.

 

1. Aren't those just metaphors? And rather obvious ones at that? The Dark One is a god of darkness, he's closely associated with concepts like shadow and night and the morning and the dawn are the end of the night.

 

2. I think it's an expression of the change which happened in VoG. Either by fully assimilating LTT or by crossing his limit with the One Power with the Choden Kal and surviving or both Rand's access to the One Power changed and the power is now somehow protecting him from the Dark One's touch.

 

3. My guess would be that if the Dragon gets killed too quickly that can have adverse consequences for the DO. Either the Dragon is somehow required for him to break free completely or because the Pattern might demand a new Dragon that could leave the DO in a worse position than before.

 

4. Do we know for certain that a Dragon was ever turned, because all I remember are Ishy's somewhat insane philosophical arguments, but no proof.

But even if a Dragon turned, like I said in 3. the Pattern might demand a new one.

 

5. Because that's how strong a ta'veren Rand is. The DO is exerting his will against the Pattern to influence the world and the Dragon is opposing that influence because he is ta'veren. However, the power of the ta'veren depends on the mindset of the person. A ta'veren whose mind is controlled by the shadow will have a negative influence and now that Rand is full of light his presence has a positive influence.

 

6. Ta'veren altering probability is just an empirical observation of the Aes Sedai. No one in Randland really knows what ta'veren can do. I think ta'veren is a spark of the power of the Creator. To some small extent ta'veren can control the Pattern. They can change threads in the Pattern to suit their liking or in other words they can directly control the reality around them. However, that control happens mostly unconsciously and their own awareness is limiting them.

Take for example the grain in Arad Doman. When Rand opened the bags in ToM he said that they had just opened the wrong ones and that all they didn't open were perfectly fine. But were they really? Had Rand opened them before VoG couldn't they have been all spoiled?

In a way as long as the sacks remained unopened for Rand the grain was both consumable and spoiled at the same time and Rand's taveren gave it the nudge which decided that it was consumable. The example of Schrödinger's Grain is directly tied in with the limit their own awareness puts on them. If they see something and recognize it as a fact they can no longer change it, because they have accepted it as part of their reality and that acceptance further fortifies it within the Pattern. Only if they ever realized that they can directly control reality would they be able to change it and fortunately that will never happen.

Edited by b3arz3rg3r

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My guesses?

 

1 thru 3 are linked. Rand/LTT/Dragon is the champion of the Light; while that's also a fancy title, it's not just a fancy title: it actually forms the basis of what he is and forms the foundation of his link to the land. What exactly the "Light" is may be in question. Perhaps its the ultimate manifestation of the OP, the essence of what the OP truly is before being split into five different semi-elemental weaves. It would give special meaning to "all that he is may be seized". The web of white might be visible manifestation of that power. Thoughts to chew on.

 

With Rand's power under its control, and the (near?) immortality it can grant, the DO not only directly and permanently affect the land directly, it also shuts down the risk of Rand ever closing the Bore, and there will be no Age that comes again with a different turning until Rand is dead. Sounds like a lot of motive.

 

4 - Being darkside doesn't mean being under the DO's control. Fain is a -prime- example of this. You can be the devil made flesh, and still be smart enough to say, "Hey, that's kinda bad idea...!" :)

 

5 - Light is a critical element of the growth cycle, manifested through photosynthesis. Cloak that light, darken it so that it cannot shine, and things die. Rand's choices (influenced by his emo attitude) cause that light to dim. Hence, the aura of darkness?

 

6 - So, if Rand's OP (or some other dragon-power) is that of Light, he should have the ability to influence the growth cycle at a hyperspastic rate. Channeling heat, water, earth, spirit and air unconsciously is feeding that cycle. Not an impossibility in terms of OP, but if reality rules were applied, such behavior might eventually strip the affected area of growth potential, I think?

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The title Lord of the Morning is very similar to Moringstar which is a title connected to Satan. Morningstar is the translation of Lucifer from Latin. Lucifer means light bearer and also refers to Venus, the morning star.

Lucifer was a fallen angel and the term is also used to describe a Babylonian king in the bible who was all powerful but the prophets believed would fall and he did. It is the term used for Satan before he fell from heaven.

 

Now Lews Therin did most certainly fall from his place of power and after that the name 'Dragon', when spoken of in the Third Age invokes reactions something similar of that of Satan in our world. Satan is even know as 'the Great Dragon'. Son of Dawn is also closely related to the term Morningstar/Lucifer. And again in Randland the titles Lord of The Morning and Prince of Dawn are closely related.

 

Jesus is also referred to as 'the bright and morning star' in revelations.

 

So I guess the titles generate the idea of the Dragon being both the destroyer and saviour.

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So I've been meaning to do this mondo-post for ages; I'm sick atm so I might as well. Deep pre-theory breaths everyone...

 

Weird unexplained things:

1. Lord of the Morning/Prince of the Dawn. These were LTT's titles, as far as I know. At least, he claims a right to them fairly vehemently in Rand's head once or twice. Where did they come from? What do they mean? They are also used to describe Rand in a piece of prophecy at the end of...TGH, I think.

 

Pass

 

2. Web of white stuff in Rand's head.

 

Taint inoculation he got from using the EotW in book 1. Yeah yeah yeah, no one believes, but think of the awesomeness of finding out he brooded for 13 books over something he was already immune to.

 

3. Why exactly the DO would rather capture him than kill him.

 

Cause controlling the Fisher King makes the game much easier to win. Moridin explains it pretty clearly, without him you have to kill every single opposing piece to win.

 

4. How it happened that Rand turned darkside in previous lives and yet the DO didn't break free (see confusing RJ quotes; too lazy to look for them).

 

RJ did say that those were "draws", so the light side must have still been pretty decimated. But that just shows that Rand isn't as powerful/godly as most people seem to think he is. I mean if he was that strong, the light side would have already won, so obviously there are counters to his strength on both sides, he just tips the scales more than the rest.

 

5. The land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the land, and there can be no health in us nor any good green somethingorother while he's all emo. Why, exactly?

 

No idea, I've wondered this myself. The way [the creator] made him is about as good as I could guess. Same way Birgitte is always good with a bow in all her lives?

 

6. Rand the apparent fertility god. Ta'veren works by altering probability. That's why food doesn't spoil around Mat and Perrin; their ta'veren effects are out-dicing the DO in some way. The food around them just happens, conveniently, to be fine. Apple trees re-blossoming and growing new fruit in the space of a minute? That's impossible, and not a ta'veren thing. It's obviously related to the 'the land is one with the Dragon' thing, but what I'm wondering is how does that work? RJ worked out the mechanics of things very carefully, so what exactly is Rand that he has this special set of rules?

 

This is the same question as 5 I think. I suspect he didn't really "regrow" brand-new apples, but restored them to where they should have been. In WOT mechanics he fixed their threads in the pattern, which is different than growing new apples, creating new threads. In theory some might assume that if they picked all those apples, Rand's presence would instantly force new ones to grow, I suspect not because there would no longer be anything to fix.

 

Just think of it the other way, If Rand's presence made stuff die, he couldn't make NEW death, he could only cause things to die. So in going the other way he doesn't make new life, he just made the rotting things reborn. I THINK the actual way the passage is written reads as new growth, but that could just be the worldly manifestation of the "fix".

Edited by Kael Pyralis

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4. Do we know for certain that a Dragon was ever turned, because all I remember are Ishy's somewhat insane philosophical arguments, but no proof.

But even if a Dragon turned, like I said in 3. the Pattern might demand a new one.

 

Most believe that he has. It comes down to this...

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

The answer is in regards to an incident in text in which Ishy is referring specifically to Rand, not some generic hero of the light.

 

We also know that Ishy and Rand are frequently spun out together which supports Ishy's musings on the topic.

 

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting

 

I didn't hear the question but someone asked something about Rand's and Moridin's souls being intertwined. Sanderson said that many souls' threads are frequently woven together in the Pattern such as Birgitte and Gaidal. He said that Rand and Moridin are also frequently woven together in the Pattern.

 

As to how he could have turned and the DO not won, RJ said their are degrees of victory. When the DO has been successful stopping the Dragon in certain ways the result has been a draw.

Edited by Suttree

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My guesses?

 

1 thru 3 are linked. Rand/LTT/Dragon is the champion of the Light; while that's also a fancy title, it's not just a fancy title: it actually forms the basis of what he is and forms the foundation of his link to the land. What exactly the "Light" is may be in question. Perhaps its the ultimate manifestation of the OP, the essence of what the OP truly is before being split into five different semi-elemental weaves. It would give special meaning to "all that he is may be seized". The web of white might be visible manifestation of that power. Thoughts to chew on.

This is something along the lines of what I was thinking. The first part at least; I really have no specific ideas about the white stuff. Though what you've said sounds fairly plausible.

 

 

Ok, here's my actual theory:

We've seen the DO's effects. The Blight, the rearranginess. These effects are caused by the Bore - the 'spot' where the there's a hole in the Pattern and the DO can reach through. RJ said that the Bore isn't in Shayol Ghul; the Bore is everywhere, disrupting the Pattern itself. Shayol Ghul is simply where it can be felt the most. So we've seen the effects of a decaying Pattern, rot being the most prominent, such as in the Blight.

 

And what is the opposite to rot? Growth. Which is just what Rand is causing to happen now, like with the apple trees. So if rot is caused by decay and corruption of the Pattern, then surely growth must be caused by regeneration of the Pattern. Again, this is not a Ta'veren thing that we've seen so far; the others pull threads to them, they don't have the power to repair them. So if the Bore is a sort of black hole in the Pattern, is Rand maybe the opposite? Is he a sort of...well, star or sun, come to think of it, going with the space analogy. Something that gives out life and energy instead of sucking it in. Which of course would fit in very well with the whole Lord of the Morning/Prince of the Dawn thing, since both are presumably metaphors for the sun. Actually, He Who Comes With The Dawn and Shadowkiller are both pretty good sun metaphors too.

 

(Hmmm...come to think of it, RJ was a physics graduate. The whole ta'veren concept is similar to gravity; some objects have more mass and 'pull' smaller objects to them. So in WoT, lighter threads end up 'in orbit' around heavier threads. Never thought of it that way.)

 

This would also fit the 'the Dragon is one with the land' thing, if Rand is sort of a 'sun' in the Pattern, if it's energy is directly related to him somehow, then his state of mind could possibly have a large effect on everything. Makes me wonder if that time when Randland started to cook was actaully the DO's work at all.

 

Anyway, that's not really the end of my theory, but I've run out of steam again :smile:

 

Also, I know that this idea probably won't be popular, because a lot of people seem to want Rand to be as close to a regular guy as possible at the end of it all. But at this point, that's really not looking likely :blink:

Edited by Randommer

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4. How it happened that Rand turned darkside in previous lives and yet the DO didn't break free (see confusing RJ quotes; too lazy to look for them).

 

*ponders for a moment*

 

Heres how I see it.

 

Rands will affects the Pattern, we have seen the darker side of it in TGS; food was rotting every time he went nasty.

 

His frame of mind, whatever it may be, affects the Pattern. Obviously its not the only thing that can affect the Pattern and I doubt he has absolute control of everything, but the way I see it is that his mind is like a focus point for the Pattern, and throughout all of this, his core task in all of this is simply to stay loyal to his fight against the Dark One. That way, his will bends the Pattern to that end, making people do all the right things, making all the right things happen, all the usual Ta'veren stuff. When he went dark, people were starving because every single food crate they opened just happened to be the rotten ones. But there was plenty of fine food there.

 

This is why Rand is so important to the Dark One. As long as the Champion of the Light opposes the Dark One breaking free it aint happening. The world, time, and everything just happens to win, literally. If the Champion of the Light was evil, though, then the whole thing works differently. The world, time, and everything might NOT work against the Dark One then. Hence, making the Dragon Reborn either evil, paranoid or insane work very well in this game.

 

If, say, Moridin was the Dragon Reborn instead of Rand, with that quality, but he still went Dark and turned out how he did now... Moridins will is to destroy the Pattern, because according to him its going to happen sooner or later and sooner is better. You think Rand was bad in TGS? Moridin would make that look nice and pretty before he destroyed it. And he WOULD destroy it.

 

Now, lets say Lanfear had the Pattern-affecting will, yet was as exactly the same as she is.

 

The Dark One wouldnt break free would he?

 

It would take a very special evil Dragon Reborn for the Dark One to break free. The thing that makes this one a close call is that Rands started acting like Moridin, and that could easily happen again. Snap Alannas bond please.

 

For the record I think the Horn of Valere is the Patterns Plan B against Dark Dragons.

Edited by Drekka Mort

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So I've been meaning to do this mondo-post for ages; I'm sick atm so I might as well. Deep pre-theory breaths everyone...

 

Weird unexplained things:

1. Lord of the Morning/Prince of the Dawn. These were LTT's titles, as far as I know. At least, he claims a right to them fairly vehemently in Rand's head once or twice. Where did they come from? What do they mean? They are also used to describe Rand in a piece of prophecy at the end of...TGH, I think.

 

2. Web of white stuff in Rand's head.

 

3. Why exactly the DO would rather capture him than kill him.

 

4. How it happened that Rand turned darkside in previous lives and yet the DO didn't break free (see confusing RJ quotes; too lazy to look for them).

 

5. The land is one with the Dragon, and the Dragon is one with the land, and there can be no health in us nor any good green somethingorother while he's all emo. Why, exactly?

 

6. Rand the apparent fertility god. Ta'veren works by altering probability. That's why food doesn't spoil around Mat and Perrin; their ta'veren effects are out-dicing the DO in some way. The food around them just happens, conveniently, to be fine. Apple trees re-blossoming and growing new fruit in the space of a minute? That's impossible, and not a ta'veren thing. It's obviously related to the 'the land is one with the Dragon' thing, but what I'm wondering is how does that work? RJ worked out the mechanics of things very carefully, so what exactly is Rand that he has this special set of rules?

 

 

...And I have a big theory I was going to go into, but I'm very dizzy so I'll come back with it later. Sides, I'd like to see if anyone has any ideas or also finds this stuff strange, since I'm probably wrong.

 

 

 

2. It's the Eye of the World that is protecting him. It's purpose was to protect the future Dragon from the taint

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"Lord of the Morning/Prince of the Dawn"

 

Easiest assumption is that they are entirely symbolic.

 

 

Assuming these titles had some real meaning and that LTT had almost the same abilities as Rand currently: Where Rand goes, he clears ups the sky (Shai'tan influence on the Pattern) and brings out the sun.

 

"Web of white stuff in Rand's head."

 

VoG awakening, entirely new compared to LTT and at a minimum this protects him from the taint already present in his mind.

 

"How it happened that Rand turned darkside in previous lives and yet the DO didn't break free (see confusing RJ quotes; too lazy to look for them)."

 

RJ has some contradictory quotes on this.

 

Ishamael was lying. Rand stated he has never turned.

 

For example, if he turned in this Age, the Pattern would have been destroyed (with the Choden Kal he was ready to destroy the world and end the Pattern, his choice, as the wolves said). With an evil Dragon, how can the Light win? Certainly can't in this Age.

 

 

 

Skipping the rest.

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This is one of those memes that has become embedded in the WoT community.

 

BS (I think) said the CoL had been turned.

 

RJ also said Rand hadn't.

 

Ergo, Rand is either not always the CoL, or is not the first CoL.

 

Considering Ishamael, and the fact the two are linked, along with the Korean twin-dragon references, mythological sun god references, etc., it's not too much of a stretch to conclude that Ishy's lie, this time, regards the subject- Ishy himself was the CoL, and fell, and now champions the DO, and Rand is the second string, with reality on his side.

 

As I recall the quote, the listener concluded that it meant Rand had turned, but that is not what was said.

 

Given RJ's quote regarding Birgitte- that if Rand failed, she would be the Pattern's next choice for a Dragon, or the first choice if a female Dragon was needed, there is a mechanism to replace the "Dragon soul" if needed. It's a role given to the best suited.

 

Furthering that argument in an idly speculative way, this would implie that the key characteristic from the Wheel's perspective for the Dragon is the ability to undergo all-consuming love. Rand is by nature a head-over-heels romantic; this is what turns him from despair and makes him want to keep the resurrection cycle going. He loves romantic love and being in it. Alternately, he is in love with womankind. Birgitte has an over-riding, specific focus: Gaidal Cain, and eternity with him. Taking Moridin as the original Dragon, as a philosopher and thinker, he may have begun as a generally compassionate character- caring about the future of all others. His conclusion that the cyclical nature of time means there can be no true future, that all of humanity is "trapped" like rats in a hamster wheel, would cause his fall to despair and nihilism. Rand's despair over killing women- something that Ishamael tried to encourage- attacks his own Achilles heel. I'm getting indirect here; the idle thought is that the Pattern is going to more and more specific forms of devotion to love for a champion of cyclical time.

 

Machin Shin is much the same, in terms of being a community meme.

 

Machin Shin appears in the WotHY

It is fatal to Shadowspawn when roused

There was a Waygate in Aridhol

Readers connect that, and assume the Wind comes from Aridhol

Some hold with the characters in-book, who speculate it comes from the taint

I never hear the third option- the Blight has swallowed two Waygates. The second Waygate fell near the beginning of the WotHY. Time match. The Ways are like a living thing, and we know what the Blight does to living things.

(Incidentally, this would explain why the "voices" in Machin Shin both feared Fain and saw him as kindred- the HoundFain was kindred of the DO, MordethFain being their antithesis. If it was Aridhol evil, would it not attack him?)

 

In this case, the meme is a false dichotomy: "Aridhol or Taint".

 

Why didn't it happen the first time a stedding fell to the Blight? Possibly that was the first time the AS destroyed a Waygate- we aren't given the location, after all.

 

Or "Who Killed Asmodean".

 

The meme there? "Graendal likes her pleasures too much, she never does anything like that."

 

We are given explicit examples of her doing things exactly like that

She is the only character we only see completely certain that Asmo is dead (there's even textual implication Sammael was using a light Compulsion on her during that interview- she's not embracing the Source and therefore protected, she's eager to reveal all she knows, he issues her orders she accepts, he reflects that it's dangerous to use Graendal's tricks on Graendal if she finds out)

She was promised a "reward" for something she did

The other FS warn the reader constantly not to be fooled by the appearance she puts on

 

Yet the majority of fans seem to have adamantly done exactly that. Again, a meme- "She's too passive."

 

EDIT:

 

Rand's entire persona is that of a sun god, from multiple mythos. Hence the Lord of the Morning and Prince of the Dawn. Incidentally, also He Who Comes with the Dawn. The Man who is a Sun, to be simple about it.

 

His battles with the male Forsaken/Couladin may be viewed as battles with imposter sun gods, for the regalia of the sun, whereas most of the female forsaken have false moon goddess connections.

 

Osan'gar- Straightforward, this is claiming his power/divinity/divine birthright.

Be'lal- the Sunbeam (sword of light; alternately, this episode leads to Rand mastering balefire, the arrow of the sun. Regardless, it's a sunblade/sunbeam image).

Asmodean- The serpent/mystical knowledge connection (the Pythia and the attendent Pythian priesthood- Aiel and Wise Ones, Aiel history.)

Rahvin- The relationship with the moon (Andor is littered with moon imagery, and Elayne is the Mother face of the moon goddess in Rand's personal symbology, as Min is the Wise Woman and Aviendha, the Maiden/Huntress).

Sammal- the Corona, the crown of the sun.

 

The showdown with Moridin, of course, will involve the eclipse.

 

What's most fascinating about all of this is that Jordan managed to create individual day episodes for his male characters, while leaving Rand- the sun god of sun gods- with an overall arc that reflects a solar cycle. (Rand briefly appears at Falme, flees incognito to the East, has a "false dawn" at Tear, and then arises in his full power and glory out of the Aiel Waste. By the time he kills Rahvin, he's at his noontide, his zenith- he then begins his decline, collecting his second never-healing wound, losing his hand, becoming Darth Rand while focusing on the West. That's a sun cycle for Rand the Conquerer spanning the series, with mini-Sun episodes scattered throughout. The day=power night=weakness nature of Rand's character is even reflected in the structure presented for sha'rah!)

 

Rand leaves Tarabon, and wanders as a refugee to the Stone. This is the night before the dawn, and only one sun rises- Rand.

Rand leaves Tear and enters Rhuidean, eventually journeying to the Golden Bowl (place of the sun?) and causes rain clouds to appear (obscures the sun until the combat is over). In the end, he binds Asmo to serve him, and they return as a single sun with a single sun shining.

 

Rand again is inactive as he gathers the clans and pursues Couladin, emerging with the dread fires to protect the city of the sun from its intended usurpation by a false serpent- in this case, although he's already claimed the mystic knowledge, he can be seen as having killed Couladin's army with his lightning, the arrows of heaven- which is how Apollo slew the Pythia.

 

Rand confronts Lanfear on the docks, and again is passive- Lanfear is a false moon (she even regularly assumes the three phases, Else/Selene (false maid, false huntress), Mierin/Lanfear, in her full glory, and Keille/Silvie, dark dealer and crone) whereas Moiraine, a moon character, is the one to take action. He then strikes at Rahvin in the dawn.

 

He strikes at Sammael after a moment of illness when he seemed incapacitated. Sammael flees to Aridhol, a kind of new night, and again, there is only one sun revealed at the end. Always the rising at dawn. That's part of the color symbology Jordan wove into his works- positive Rand, aggressive Rand, triumphant Rand, wore red and gold, the colors of the sunrise. His own coloring reflects his purpose- fair skin, red hair, and eyes of the sky (changeable blue-grey). Moridin's colors of red and black reflect the sunset, night oncoming. Again, this would fit the idea that they are twin-dragons; mirrors of each other.

 

Someday, I'm going to do a formal write-through of all this- y'know, details like in the World of Dreams (Dreams=Sleep=Night), neither Rand nor Rahvin won the fight, but the moon goddess figures determined the winner. Particularly Nynaeve, in her guise of Ma'at, guardian of law, order, and tradition, warded the true sun through its journey in the otherworld.

 

Jordan's use of clothing colors in the series is extremely important, hence why he spends all that time on them. Colors, to an extent, indicate role in the repetitive "night-day" cycles the story is written in.

 

And that's just one kind of mythology, the symbolic cycle he uses throughout the text. (Fun note- it always involves water crossings, an implication from the Egyption sun mythos. Even Perrin's battle at Malden.) He also directly twists mythology in the more notable ways, such as Mat and Gawyn between them being Gawaine, the Knight of Ladies/Women, or al'Thor the Dragon (with the royal 'al'), drawer of the Sword in the Stone and Artur the great king, wielder of the sword of justice, becoming King Arthur, drawer of the Sword in the Stone, the just and perfect king.

 

Second edit: I'm an idiot, I just realized the importance of Elayne's bath. The man stuck to his formula, give him that.

Edited by BrainFireBob

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Lotta interesting stuff.

 

Entreri and BrainFireBob: Rand thinks he's never been turned (or he used to)and RJ gave an Aes Sedai-ish answer once, but at other times he stated directly that Rand has turned to the Shadow before. And he also said that Rand's soul is always the Light side's champion.

 

BrainFireBob: Yeah it's incredible how much effort RJ put into the mythological parallels. And I can't help but feel that in Rand's case, the sun motif may be a metaphor for his odd Pattern powers.

 

Drekka Mort: That's very similar to what I think. I think that it may be very hard to destroy the Pattern so long as Rand exists, because the Creator picked him to be a sort of...'sun' or seal or knot or something in the Pattern, and I also think it's possible the DO just hasn't figured out how to destroy him; his soul not just his body. I think this partly because of the weird stuff Ishamael said back in the day, something like, "But this time there will be no rebirth for you. You will be destroyed utterly." I mean, have we seen anything with the power to destroy a soul? I can't remember it. Or...yeah something like that anyway. There's definitely a lot of missing info though; the Dragon could have 'turned to the Shadow' for many reasons other than wanting to destroy the Pattern, which, as Drekka said, would help explain why the DO isn't free.

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Lotta interesting stuff.

 

Entreri and BrainFireBob: Rand thinks he's never been turned (or he used to)and RJ gave an Aes Sedai-ish answer once, but at other times he stated directly that Rand has turned to the Shadow before. And he also said that Rand's soul is always the Light side's champion.

 

RJ did confirm that Rand has turned as I noted in post #8. Ishy was referring to Rand in that specific instance in text and was not referring to some generic CoL. RJ said he was not lying, it is pretty clear.. Rand's claim that he is not is entirely suspect, he didn't know any better at that point in the story. It falls under RJ's theme of people not knowing what they think they do.

 

As for the second part although I believe you are correct nowhere is their a quote where RJ said Rand's soul is always the lights champion. BS does confirm that Ishy and Rand are frequently spun out together, that combined with Ishy's claim they have fought countless times should be enough to show it is the case however.

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As for the second part although I believe you are correct nowhere is their a quote where RJ said Rand's soul is always the lights champion. BS does confirm that Ishy and Rand are frequently spun out together, that combined with Ishy's claim they have fought countless times should be enough to show it is the case however.

There is a quote somewhere; I think there's two in fact. Once, someone's asking if the Dragon could ever be female, and the other time someone's asking if the Dragon could ever be anyone but Rand in a different turning of the wheel. He said that the Dragon couldn't be female because gender is a soul thing and Rand's soul is always the Dragon. The other answer was a bit roundabout I think, but came to the same thing.

Edited by Randommer

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As for the second part although I believe you are correct nowhere is their a quote where RJ said Rand's soul is always the lights champion. BS does confirm that Ishy and Rand are frequently spun out together, that combined with Ishy's claim they have fought countless times should be enough to show it is the case however.

There is a quote somewhere; I think there's two in fact. Once, someone's asking if the Dragon could ever be female, and the other time someone's asking if the Dragon could ever be anyone but Rand in a different turning of the wheel. RJ said that it could definitely be someone other than Rand as he is now, but it would still be the same soul.

 

There's also a quote where he stated that Birgitte, in his opinion, would be the Wheel's next choice for a Dragon if Rand failed hard- I assume meaning that the DO got him.

 

Whether the Dragon and CoL are the same isn't every clearly defined.

 

Suttree, that question isn't as clear as you're thinking. Ishamael says that Rand has turned- he also says that the Creator's champion has turned. RJ responded to the question, which regarded the CoL, not Rand. I don't know where you are getting that it had to be Rand. That's not part of the question, nor his response.

Edited by BrainFireBob

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As for the second part although I believe you are correct nowhere is their a quote where RJ said Rand's soul is always the lights champion. BS does confirm that Ishy and Rand are frequently spun out together, that combined with Ishy's claim they have fought countless times should be enough to show it is the case however.

There is a quote somewhere; I think there's two in fact. Once, someone's asking if the Dragon could ever be female, and the other time someone's asking if the Dragon could ever be anyone but Rand in a different turning of the wheel. RJ said that it could definitely be someone other than Rand as he is now, but it would still be the same soul.

 

There's also a quote where he stated that Birgitte, in his opinion, would be the Wheel's next choice for a Dragon if Rand failed hard- I assume meaning that the DO got him.

 

Whether the Dragon and CoL are the same isn't every clearly defined.

 

Suttree, that question isn't as clear as you're thinking. Ishamael says that Rand has turned- he also says that the Creator's champion has turned. RJ responded to the question, which regarded the CoL, not Rand. I don't know where you are getting that it had to be Rand. That's not part of the question, nor his response.

But the thing is, the CoL is the Dragon. The Dragon's the dude chosen repeatedly to protect the Pattern from the DO. We have no reason to think that there is a CoL beyond that.

 

Also, he mentioned Birgitte?

 

But anyway, previous turnings of the wheel are only speculation really, since we get very little info on them. There's a lot more interesting (in my nerdy opinion) stuff to debate about Rand's current powers.

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As for the second part although I believe you are correct nowhere is their a quote where RJ said Rand's soul is always the lights champion. BS does confirm that Ishy and Rand are frequently spun out together, that combined with Ishy's claim they have fought countless times should be enough to show it is the case however.

There is a quote somewhere; I think there's two in fact. Once, someone's asking if the Dragon could ever be female, and the other time someone's asking if the Dragon could ever be anyone but Rand in a different turning of the wheel. He said that the Dragon couldn't be female because gender is a soul thing and Rand's soul is always the Dragon. The other answer was a bit roundabout I think, but came to the same thing.

 

Here it is. To be clear I agree that it is always Rand but the quote isn't definitive for everyone. I have seen people try and interpret it different ways. Not aware of a second one, would like to see it if it exists.

 

Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

Jordan said "Yes" then maybe a few more words and only then did I remember to actually put the recorder on again...

RJ: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern. But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

There's also a quote where he stated that Birgitte, in his opinion, would be the Wheel's next choice for a Dragon if Rand failed hard- I assume meaning that the DO got him.

 

Whether the Dragon and CoL are the same isn't every clearly defined.

 

Suttree, that question isn't as clear as you're thinking. Ishamael says that Rand has turned- he also says that the Creator's champion has turned. RJ responded to the question, which regarded the CoL, not Rand. I don't know where you are getting that it had to be Rand. That's not part of the question, nor his response.

 

I am beyond sure it is not stated that Birgitte would be the next champion if Rand failed. RJ said he never intended to explore the female dragon aspect/saidar being tainted. He said if there was a time in which a female champion was needed it would be "*insert female dragon name here*".

 

Not sure of the quote for this but I have seen people claim he said Amaresu would play that role.

 

Here is what the questioner was asking about. Pulled the relevant quotes from a different thread provided by Terez...

 

"That is better, Lews Therin." Ba'alzamon tossed the banner to the floor and put his hands on the chair back; wisps of smoke rose from between his fingers. The shadow no longer encompassed him. "There is your banner, Kinslayer. Much good will it do you. A thousand strings laid over a thousand years have drawn you here. Ten thousand woven throughout the Ages tie you like a sheep for slaughter. The Wheel itself holds you prisoner to your fate Age after Age. But I can set you free. You cowering cur, I alone in the entire world can teach you how to wield the Power. I alone can stop it killing you before you have a chance to go mad. I alone can stop the madness. You have served me before. Serve me again, Lews Therin, or be destroyed forever!"

And another:

 

"You worm, you know nothing at all. As ignorant as a beetle under a rock, and as easily crushed. This struggle has gone on since the moment of creation. Always men think it a new war, but it is just the same war discovered anew. Only now change blows on the winds of time. Change. This time there will be no drifting back. Those proud Aes Sedai who think to stand you up against me. I will dress them in chains and send them running naked to do my bidding, or stuff their souls into the Pit of Doom to scream for eternity. All but those who already serve me. They will stand but a step beneath me. You can choose to stand with them, with the world groveling at your feet. I offer it one more time, one last time. You can stand above them, above every power and dominion but mine. There have been times when you made that choice, times when you lived long enough to know your power."

He says YOU have served me before; YOU made that choice. Not some random hero of the Light. Rand. RJ said he wasn't lying. Case closed.

Edited by Suttree

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Id hardly say it was case closed. Didnt RJ say Rand and Lews Therin werent the same person? That would put a bit of a dint in Ishamaels case. And just because someone isnt lying, it doesnt mean they are telling the truth, they might be wrong. Ishamael has been wrong before.

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I think Rand is called lord of the morning or prince of the dawn because the freaking sun comes out wherever he goes...as far as him turning to the dark side...he never did, Baalzamon only said that he head, then tried to kill him when he finally vehemently denied ever serving him. Besides, Jordan steals from every other religion, why not temptation a la Jesus or Luke Skywalker?

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I have an idea but I need to clarify something first. Help me out with the acronym CoL please, then I can hopefully put my idea into words.

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That's what I thought I just needed to make sure. So why does the dragon reborn have to be the CoL? LTT was the Dragon because that was his title, sort of like...amarilyn right? None of the other CoL were called the Dragon Reborn because LTT, the Dragon, hadn't existed yet. So.. if Rand Screws up, the Dragon Reborn doesn't HAVE to be the CoL, somebody else can take up the mantle. Then the next time.. it isn't Rand Al'Thor reborn.. its some other guy reborn. Man... I had a real thought here and now I'm lost.

 

It had to do with Moridin not ever BEING the Dragon Reborn in the first place. If Moridin hadn't turned to DO then LTT wouldn't have been the CoL, it would have been Moridin reborn.

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Id hardly say it was case closed. Didnt RJ say Rand and Lews Therin werent the same person? That would put a bit of a dint in Ishamaels case.

 

That was never said. They are the same soul, there is no question about that.

 

That's what I thought I just needed to make sure. So why does the dragon reborn have to be the CoL? LTT was the Dragon because that was his title, sort of like...amarilyn right? None of the other CoL were called the Dragon Reborn because LTT, the Dragon, hadn't existed yet. So.. if Rand Screws up, the Dragon Reborn doesn't HAVE to be the CoL, somebody else can take up the mantle. Then the next time.. it isn't Rand Al'Thor reborn.. its some other guy reborn. Man... I had a real thought here and now I'm lost.

 

Titles can change, that has no bearing on the soul however.

Edited by Suttree

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