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DRAGONMOUNT

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You know what ''minor'' event SERIOUSLY Bummed me out?


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Mangin's death.

 

And, it bums me out a little more every time I read it - which I have reread recently, hence this post. ... I think three reasons exists for this on my part:

 

1 Jordan planted lots of ''hooks'' regarding Rand's friendship with this young man in previous books.

 

2 Mangin WAS likable. I disagreed with Rand that his personality was ''like Mat's'' but I DID think he was funny.

 

3 It was just another in a long list of SUCKY things to happen to The Dragon Reborn and further isolate and harden him. It made me really sad when Rand thinks to himself that he has no time for new friends. Also, just regular friendships are so rare in WOT, and Mangin was one of the FEW times Rand gets a chance at even the possibility of one. Of course, early in the series the running point seems to be that Rand just keeps losing things. And it was just so...ALIEN...even beyond regular Aiel standards. The First is shocked by Mangin's acceptance, and I was too. I never understood why Rhuarc acted the way he did in this scene...it was like he was trying to convey something to Rand (and maybe The First, too) but it went right over my head.

 

..... Maybe just because everytime I read it I am a little older and get how precious real friendships are, or just that I see how sucky Rand's life is more clearly...plus, Lan, Perrin, Thom, Tam and Mat are probably the only five males Rand trusts implicitly and...Guess what??? They have ALL been removed from Rand's life by this point in the series. And here is Mangin. Just a regular guy, Can't Channel. Isn't a Warder or Ta'veren or someone who WANTS something out of Rand. And he has to hang himself for killing a man that was being disrespectful of Rand. How bad does THAT blow???

 

 

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I agree, I consider his death one of the most shocking moments of the series. Far more upsetting than the "gasp" moment with the Amayar (whom we don't even know). The way Mangin goes to his death willingly is chilling and in my most recent re-read I had to stop and think about it for a while. It's very well done by RJ, and definitely shows how hard Rand has become, but it still sucks.

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I agree, I consider his death one of the most shocking moments of the series. Far more upsetting than the "gasp" moment with the Amayar (whom we don't even know). The way Mangin goes to his death willingly is chilling and in my most recent re-read I had to stop and think about it for a while. It's very well done by RJ, and definitely shows how hard Rand has become, but it still sucks.

 

Totally. It really says something about the Aiel and how ingrained they are in 'Law'

 

Mangin doesn't even protest the PUNISHMENT, much less the accusation. Yes, he WAS guilty...but to not even consider asking for leniency or a postponment of the sentencing...Chilling, yeah.

 

 

 

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I also get a little teary when I get to that part in the books. We are told about Aiel ways and see some of it, but to see an instance like this make me even more inpressed with them. What a far better world we would be in if people followed ji'e'toh.

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I don't understand sympathy for Mangin. He was a murderer and a fanatic. He killed a stranger because of a tattoo that offended his cultural beliefs. There's nothing to respect in his blandly accepting death afterwards. It just makes him the Third Age equivalent of a suicide bomber. It also shows the selfishness of honor codes. Mangin may value his honor more than his personal welfare, but he's still only thinking of himself: his honor.

 

It's a bit sad that Rand lost a friend, but if there's anything he should be ditching friends for, it's murder.

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It wasn't his honour he cared about, it was for Rand's honour. That's hardly selfish.

 

Besides, the victim had to die according to the will of the Pattern since the dragon tattoo is reserved for the Dragon Reborn alone. So you can't really pin it on Mangin, the pattern wouldn't have it any other way ;)

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Besides, the victim had to die according to the will of the Pattern since the dragon tattoo is reserved for the Dragon Reborn alone.

 

And, you know, a dozen clan chiefs.

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Mangin's death.

 

And, it bums me out a little more every time I read it - which I have reread recently, hence this post. ... I think three reasons exists for this on my part:

 

...

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Rand specifically warned the Aiel Clan Chiefs after transiting the Jangai Pass that he would hang any Aiel that took more then the "Fith" or took food from starving Cairhienen. He also reminded them that he would not tolerate killing any Wetlanders except in battle or self-defense. He realized that many Aiel still held grudges from the original war and that he had to stamp out the "just Treekillers" attitude that most Aiel seemed to harbor. In doing so, he had to be seen as being totally impartial and he also had to to demonstrate his resolve to the Wise Ones who indirectly questioned his "softness" on some issues.

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Besides, the victim had to die according to the will of the Pattern since the dragon tattoo is reserved for the Dragon Reborn alone.

 

And, you know, a dozen clan chiefs.

 

On both arms?

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Besides, the victim had to die according to the will of the Pattern since the dragon tattoo is reserved for the Dragon Reborn alone.

 

And, you know, a dozen clan chiefs.

 

On both arms?

 

The victim only had one tattoo.

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I don't understand sympathy for Mangin. He was a murderer and a fanatic. He killed a stranger because of a tattoo that offended his cultural beliefs. There's nothing to respect in his blandly accepting death afterwards. It just makes him the Third Age equivalent of a suicide bomber. It also shows the selfishness of honor codes. Mangin may value his honor more than his personal welfare, but he's still only thinking of himself: his honor.

 

It's a bit sad that Rand lost a friend, but if there's anything he should be ditching friends for, it's murder.

actually the murder was for his personal honour, accepting the punishment was his obligation to society.

Ji e to

 

that is why people can sympathize with him, because in a perfect world people would accept the consequences of what they do. But in actuality almost everyone tries to resist and change the consequences.

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I don't understand sympathy for Mangin. He was a murderer and a fanatic. He killed a stranger because of a tattoo that offended his cultural beliefs. There's nothing to respect in his blandly accepting death afterwards. It just makes him the Third Age equivalent of a suicide bomber. It also shows the selfishness of honor codes. Mangin may value his honor more than his personal welfare, but he's still only thinking of himself: his honor.

 

It's a bit sad that Rand lost a friend, but if there's anything he should be ditching friends for, it's murder.

actually the murder was for his personal honour, accepting the punishment was his obligation to society.

Ji'e'toh

 

that is why people can sympathize with him, because in a perfect world people would accept the consequences of what they do. But in actuality almost everyone tries to resist and change the consequences.

In a perfect world, people wouldn't go around murdering other people in the first place. Especially for such trivial reasons.
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I liked Mangin and was also saddened by his death. I want to blame him for doing something wrong, but in his culture he did the right thing. I applaud his courage in accepting the fact that even though he did what is right in HIS culture, in the culture of the country he did it in that was wrong and he therefore must be punished.

 

The death that really p's me off is Ronan's.

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While I agree Mangin's death was well done. I remember what I took away form this was that Rand orders this mans death for breaking the laws he set down. But when the Cara'carn's justice was handed out he did not have the guts to witness the execution himself. I was very disappointed in Rand by this in-action, for me it was one of the first signs that Rand was not ready for the responsibility of leadership.

 

All things being equal it was a brilliant piece of story telling.

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How about Rand's balescream against Graendil; and his attempted mass-extermination of Ebou Dor. For all his "weakness" regarding the death of women; Rand has had his share of killings; and not all were 100% justified.

 

The sad thing about "dark Rand" is how he was made by the Aiel; yet used them ruthlessly. And most didn't complain.

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I think one of RJ's greatest themes is balance, and I think we see a perfect illustration here in regards to ji'e'toh. Some people think it's great, others think it sucks. The reality is it does neither. It does nothing. It is what you make of it. It has good parts (taking responsibility) and bad parts (knee-jerk reactions aka killing someone because their tattoo offends you in some way).

 

It was also a good balance lesson for Rand. If you make the rules, you have to enforce them. And also I don't see this scene as Rand being hard at all, far from it. He was pissed at Rhuarc and Berelain for not carrying out the sentence, because he really didn't want to order the death of someone he liked even though he knew it was just. If he was that hard he wouldn't have cared.

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While I agree Mangin's death was well done. I remember what I took away form this was that Rand orders this mans death for breaking the laws he set down. But when the Cara'carn's justice was handed out he did not have the guts to witness the execution himself. I was very disappointed in Rand by this in-action, for me it was one of the first signs that Rand was not ready for the responsibility of leadership.

 

Should Rand really go and witness the punishment of every criminal and murderer that is caught within his lands? Mangin may be somewhat sympathetic since we know him, but the bottom line is that he murdered an innocent man who commited no crime other than emulating Rand (which was actually not a crime at all according to the law). And given that tattoos are obviously nothing like real dragons, the guy was probably an admirer of Rand. Mangin not only spiritually hurt Rand which was bad considering Rands already weakening mental state, but probably also turned people off from Rand by murdering someone who admired him. The Aiel were known to be Rands people afterall, and the fact that Mangin was not punished once caught as he should have been (and as any other murderer would have been), but was allowed to roam free whiel waiting for Rand to arrive probably only made it worse in the eyes of the population. In a way this whole thing was a minor version of what the Dragonsworn and Masema did.

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