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Will the Creator speak again


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As a bookend to the entire struggle, do you think the Creator will pop up and give us a wee victory speech of some sort?

 

I'm thinking a God-about-Jesus style "THIS IS MY CHAMPION AND I AM WELL PLEASED" sort of thing.

 

Or has the fact He spoke at all in EotW been a bit Retconned?

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As a bookend to the entire struggle, do you think the Creator will pop up and give us a wee victory speech of some sort?

 

I'm thinking a God-about-Jesus style "THIS IS MY CHAMPION AND I AM WELL PLEASED" sort of thing.

 

Or has the fact He spoke at all in EotW been a bit Retconned?

 

Some people still try to deny that was the Creator in tEotW. I don't prescribe to that as it just happens to speak exactly RJ's thoughts that the Creator has on the matter. To me it was an early bookism before things were fully fleshed out. Don't believe we will be seeing it again.

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As a bookend to the entire struggle, do you think the Creator will pop up and give us a wee victory speech of some sort?

 

I'm thinking a God-about-Jesus style "THIS IS MY CHAMPION AND I AM WELL PLEASED" sort of thing.

 

Or has the fact He spoke at all in EotW been a bit Retconned?

 

Some people still try to deny that was the Creator in tEotW. I don't prescribe to that as it just happens to speak exactly RJ's thoughts that the Creator has on the matter. To me it was an early bookism before things were fully fleshed out. Don't believe we will be seeing it again.

 

Yeah, I don't see that it could have been anyone but the Creator. And it probably was early bookism even though it'd be kind of cool if RJ had everything out even back then. If the Creator were to talk in aMoL, it would have to be very well placed and only towards Rand, since he's supposed to be his champion. I'm not expecting it though.

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As a bookend to the entire struggle, do you think the Creator will pop up and give us a wee victory speech of some sort?

 

I'm thinking a God-about-Jesus style "THIS IS MY CHAMPION AND I AM WELL PLEASED" sort of thing.

 

Or has the fact He spoke at all in EotW been a bit Retconned?

 

Some people still try to deny that was the Creator in tEotW. I don't prescribe to that as it just happens to speak exactly RJ's thoughts that the Creator has on the matter. To me it was an early bookism before things were fully fleshed out. Don't believe we will be seeing it again.

 

Who on earth do they claim it is, if not the Creator? The Spirit of Bela or something? :bela:

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As a bookend to the entire struggle, do you think the Creator will pop up and give us a wee victory speech of some sort?

 

I'm thinking a God-about-Jesus style "THIS IS MY CHAMPION AND I AM WELL PLEASED" sort of thing.

 

Or has the fact He spoke at all in EotW been a bit Retconned?

 

Some people still try to deny that was the Creator in tEotW. I don't prescribe to that as it just happens to speak exactly RJ's thoughts that the Creator has on the matter. To me it was an early bookism before things were fully fleshed out. Don't believe we will be seeing it again.

 

Who on earth do they claim it is, if not the Creator? The Spirit of Bela or something? :bela:

 

The Dark One. He's the only other character we've met who speaks in all caps.

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As a bookend to the entire struggle, do you think the Creator will pop up and give us a wee victory speech of some sort?

 

I'm thinking a God-about-Jesus style "THIS IS MY CHAMPION AND I AM WELL PLEASED" sort of thing.

 

Or has the fact He spoke at all in EotW been a bit Retconned?

 

Some people still try to deny that was the Creator in tEotW. I don't prescribe to that as it just happens to speak exactly RJ's thoughts that the Creator has on the matter. To me it was an early bookism before things were fully fleshed out. Don't believe we will be seeing it again.

 

Who on earth do they claim it is, if not the Creator? The Spirit of Bela or something? :bela:

 

The Dark One. He's the only other character we've met who speaks in all caps.

 

Also have heard a few loonies say it was LTT speaking for the first time...

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As a bookend to the entire struggle, do you think the Creator will pop up and give us a wee victory speech of some sort?

 

I'm thinking a God-about-Jesus style "THIS IS MY CHAMPION AND I AM WELL PLEASED" sort of thing.

 

Or has the fact He spoke at all in EotW been a bit Retconned?

 

Some people still try to deny that was the Creator in tEotW. I don't prescribe to that as it just happens to speak exactly RJ's thoughts that the Creator has on the matter. To me it was an early bookism before things were fully fleshed out. Don't believe we will be seeing it again.

 

Who on earth do they claim it is, if not the Creator? The Spirit of Bela or something? :bela:

 

The Dark One. He's the only other character we've met who speaks in all caps.

 

Also have heard a few loonies say it was LTT speaking for the first time...

 

.... I don't even see what kind of support one could find for this theory.

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Pretty sure LTT's first words are in TSR when he says "Now." Well arguably...

 

I always thought it was the Creator as well. It doesn't fit the DO's tone to be him.

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Pretty sure LTT's first words are in TSR when he says "Now." Well arguably...

 

I always thought it was the Creator as well. It doesn't fit the DO's tone to be him.

 

Nah. His first words are in the prologue in the EOTW. He was calling for Illeyna.

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As a bookend to the entire struggle, do you think the Creator will pop up and give us a wee victory speech of some sort?

 

I'm thinking a God-about-Jesus style "THIS IS MY CHAMPION AND I AM WELL PLEASED" sort of thing.

 

Or has the fact He spoke at all in EotW been a bit Retconned?

 

Some people still try to deny that was the Creator in tEotW. I don't prescribe to that as it just happens to speak exactly RJ's thoughts that the Creator has on the matter. To me it was an early bookism before things were fully fleshed out. Don't believe we will be seeing it again.

 

Who on earth do they claim it is, if not the Creator? The Spirit of Bela or something? :bela:

 

The Dark One. He's the only other character we've met who speaks in all caps.

 

Also have heard a few loonies say it was LTT speaking for the first time...

 

.... I don't even see what kind of support one could find for this theory.

 

The evidence is that this happens while rand is channeling for the first time, and we know that in the later books channeling stirs mr. terin. That, combined with the statements that the creator does not actively influence the world provide the groundwork for the theory.

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Pretty sure LTT's first words are in TSR when he says "Now." Well arguably...

 

I always thought it was the Creator as well. It doesn't fit the DO's tone to be him.

 

Nah. His first words are in the prologue in the EOTW. He was calling for Illeyna.

 

 

Ok, first time in Rand's head is what I meant.

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I would say that's the Creator, and I'm sure he will speak again. The Dark One and Creator will probably speak through their avatars (Rand and Moridin).

 

Time after time we've seen how RJ had things planned out from the beginning, and he spent years writing the first two books, so I'm sure it wasn't "bookism" or whatever... Min's viewings in the first book are a good example of that.

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Time after time we've seen how RJ had things planned out from the beginning, and he spent years writing the first two books, so I'm sure it wasn't "bookism" or whatever... Min's viewings in the first book are a good example of that.

 

Yes he had the framework planned from the beginning but sorry mate there are a number of well documented examples of "early bookisms" in the WoT. When he started the story it was planned to be much shorter and he did not have every detail of the world fleshed out. Which considering how complex the series has grown to be, really isn't a knock in the slightest.

Edited by Suttree
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I don't think the Voice was the DO's. There were more to DO's voice than the caps, Demandred described it as "terrible", furthermore the Forsaken are only able to communicate with DO in Shayol Ghul.

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Time after time we've seen how RJ had things planned out from the beginning, and he spent years writing the first two books, so I'm sure it wasn't "bookism" or whatever... Min's viewings in the first book are a good example of that.

 

Yes he had the framework planned from the beginning but sorry mate there are a number of well documented examples of "early bookisms" in the WoT. When he started the story it was planned to be much shorter and he did not have every detail of the world fleshed out. Which considering how complex the series has grown to be, really isn't a knock in the slightest.

 

Obviously plans changed as he went along, but anything like that is generally worked into the rest of the story later sufficiently enough and he knew early on that it wasn't going to work in 6 books like he originally planned. In terms of the Creator voice I didn't find it to be out of place or a bookism.

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I too believe that RJ had things masterfully worked out as far as careful detail, and yes, there have been a few changes in the first books especially dealing with channeling (healing I think it was), but this might or might not be influence from a publisher who wanted things more vivid. Some have argued how could Rand (and Nyneave) have been channeling and not known what hew as doing when embracing the source it such a violent struggle with all the sweetness and filth, but I think RJ smoothed this out further with the visions that Avi had of children who could channel without first connecting to the source. It's a good and believable reason I think and probably not planned as providing additional proof. It is downright scary how well planned out (exception being to length but I'm not complaining) that RJ had as to foreshadowing, Min's visions, fortellings, and dreams for the entire course of the story.

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I too believe that RJ had things masterfully worked out as far as careful detail, and yes, there have been a few changes in the first books especially dealing with channeling (healing I think it was), but this might or might not be influence from a publisher who wanted things more vivid. Some have argued how could Rand (and Nyneave) have been channeling and not known what hew as doing when embracing the source it such a violent struggle with all the sweetness and filth, but I think RJ smoothed this out further with the visions that Avi had of children who could channel without first connecting to the source. It's a good and believable reason I think and probably not planned as providing additional proof. It is downright scary how well planned out (exception being to length but I'm not complaining) that RJ had as to foreshadowing, Min's visions, fortellings, and dreams for the entire course of the story.

 

My thoughts on the bit in bold:

 

For a woman to be channelling takes surrender, not struggle. It's probably no co-incidence that Nynaeve's innate talents came to the fore at times where she'd all but given up on her patients - she was probably surrendering to the inevitable without even realising it.

 

As for Rand, maybe he wasn't channelling at all. For instance, the fact Bela was able to keep up with the other horses and stay fresh - he might not have been channelling, but rather bending the pattern to his will (as we saw in Darth Rand's confrontation with Cadsuane where he told her he could stop her heart just by willing it) - his sheer desire for Egwene to keep with them, coupled with his Ta'veren nature. Therefore, the struggle to hold the Source didn't apply.

 

Oh, in terms of Avi's visions - it wasn't so much that they could channel without first touching it, more that they just never ever let it go.

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As for Rand, maybe he wasn't channelling at all. For instance, the fact Bela was able to keep up with the other horses and stay fresh - he might not have been channelling, but rather bending the pattern to his will (as we saw in Darth Rand's confrontation with Cadsuane where he told her he could stop her heart just by willing it) - his sheer desire for Egwene to keep with them, coupled with his Ta'veren nature. Therefore, the struggle to hold the Source didn't apply.

 

We know per RJ and the fact that he got the channeling sickness afterwards that he was. The same when he was on the riverboat and swung the sail around during the fight and then got all crazy climbing about the rigging after.

 

Oh, in terms of Avi's visions - it wasn't so much that they could channel without first touching it, more that they just never ever let it go.

 

Correct, they perpetually embrace the source.

 

As for the rest, sorry guys you can talk all you want about how RJ planned it. The "early bookisms" are well documented in the fandom. It's not even open to debate that they exist. Only thing that is would be if the "Creator" speaking is one of them. There are many direct quotes from RJ that human kind is totally on it's own and that for the Creator to act would be admitting his own imperfection. Well guess what, a booming all caps voice driving Rand to action would most definitely fall in the category of the Creator taking a hand in the proceedings.

Edited by Suttree
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As for Rand, maybe he wasn't channelling at all. For instance, the fact Bela was able to keep up with the other horses and stay fresh - he might not have been channelling, but rather bending the pattern to his will (as we saw in Darth Rand's confrontation with Cadsuane where he told her he could stop her heart just by willing it) - his sheer desire for Egwene to keep with them, coupled with his Ta'veren nature. Therefore, the struggle to hold the Source didn't apply.

 

We know per RJ and the fact that he got the channeling sickness afterwards that he was. The same when he was on the riverboat and swung the sail around during the fight and then got all crazy climbing about the rigging after.

 

Not to mention the description when he's willing Bela to run. It sounds a lot like saidin, not that we could have known back then.

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It could be the Great Lord of the Dark. In any case, I don't think anything from book 1 should be taken seriously (early-bookism).

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IMO it was the Creator (though I played with an idea of LTT and DO but at the end of the day only the creator makes sense). As to his reappearance, I hope so. Maybe not in public but at least to Rand (you know, as a reward for all the work the lad did and all). But than, I think there is no DO or Creator and it all comes down to human choice. Anyways, long story so my 5 cents, yes I think the creator will (or should) appear again.

 

P.S. I used to think that RJ put the caps in before he knew where the story was going, but considering how much tEotW foreshadows it's hard to believe that he would put something as major as caps indicating the Creator and than just ignore it.

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I've always felt it was the Creator.

 

Given what we've learned since then, and especially in the last book. I agree in part with NetSlider.

 

The Creator spoke, as a reaction to 2 things. Rand thinks he's in battle with the DO and not Isha as it turns out to be, and he calls out "It has to end"

 

 

I think the Creator answers, not so much in terms of the final battle, but to stop the cyclus. Every Dragon Reborn gets the choice to end the cycle, to stop history from repeating itself and move on. So far none has been succesfull and the Dragon comes back again and again to do battle against the DO.

No, what the Creator means is, it is up to his Chosen One, the Dragon - to end this properly, if he will. To not die in the final battle, to break the patterns loop.

 

Was this the plan all along from RJ? I really doubt that. But as his world grew, he needed to figure out the best way to explain this involvement from the Creator, and what better than to see the next upcoming Dragon for the zillionth time, actually call out to the DO and shout "It has to end" - as the first hint of Rand being able to end it once and for all, by breaking the prophecies and his fate.

Edited by lostcause
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Disagree.

 

I would like to see why people think it is not the DO's MO. What is not DO about this?

 

"IT IS NOT HERE."- in response to Rand literally calling out the DO and demanding they have it out

 

"ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL" whereupon the DO, if it is him, directs Rand to the Chosen One- who isn't Rand, but Moridin. Remember, the Forsaken are "the Chosen" to the DO.

 

If HERE is at or near Shayol Ghul- say in Moridin's fire-room, which may be in a vacuole attached "near" Shayol Ghul, or in TAR, or at SG- then Rand, in his first flush of power as the Dragon, is calling out the DO for TG- and the DO tells him "Look, if you want to start it now, that's fine- my Nae'blis is responsible for making sure the conditions are met. He's in this room, pop in and start swinging if you think you're ready."

 

Ishy has spent thousands of pages trying to make sure the Last Battle happens when it's advantageous for the Shadow, and that Rand is in the "right" frame of mind. The Prophecies are partially to guide Rand. But with the Shadow in play, the Wheel can't predict everything, and the Prophecies can fail. To me, that means that the trigger conditions for the LB can be met at nearly any time- it's making sure they're met at the right time that's the issue.

 

Late night side-thought: If the Champion of Light has fallen before, then Moridin may be the original Dragon. Hence being Chosen.

 

Alternately, "Chosen to rule the world forever" may be a very sloppy rendition of "Chosen to rule the world until the end of time"- in like, five minutes.

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