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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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The RJ quote about pillowfriends settles it. It is clearly implies a sexual relationship. The "sexual" part is certain from his quote. The "relationship" part is not clarified by RJ but judging from the examples in the books it is something more than a one time event or a fling, but it doesn't need to be a long term relationship either. I think the 13th depository article says practically everything that needs to be said about it and should be read by everyone who wonders.

 

Regarding Moiraine and Siuan I think it is clear that their relationship is serious. By that I don't mean that they plan to be together for the rest of their lives. They discuss boys and their future without mentioning each other as a possibility. But it is much more than a fling, and deeper than what is needed to qualify for "pillowfriends". The quotes in the 13th depository article (and there's more) should be enough evidence that their relationship is just as much (or more) romantic than sexual. They love each other, they say it outright, they kiss, they share beds on several occasions, and they are confronted with the fact of their relationship.

 

There are several factors which confuse people with regards to Moiraine/Siuan however:

 

  1. RJ is anything but blunt about sex in the books. You can easily read New Spring and miss it if you're not paying attention to details. I can't remember if you can miss what a pillowfriend is if you read the main series but it is possible as well. Why? RJ just prefers the more old-fashioned approach to describing things sexual by using euphemisms or fade-to-black. Usually this is not a problem and you can figure out what he means, but in a few cases thing can be confusing and this is one of those.
  2. He is even more conservative in his description of gays and lesbians. We don't know why, whether he was afraid of stirring up controversy, or that people or the media would focus too much on only that part of the books, or that he was uncomfortable (or simply not good at) writing it.
  3. Moiraine and Siuan's previous relationship and their deep friendship is not recognized in the main series. I'll just say this is a big weakness, even if its my subjective opinion. One day they were intimately involved and the next they are separated and practically unable to meet publicly or privately for the next 20 years. A hug in tEotW does not recognize their history. Nor does the moments when they learn of the fates of the other. Egwene even pushes Moiraine about it when she hears about Siuan being stilled or dead, and Egwene doesn't even know about the extent of their relationship. See my speculation on the previous point, RJ may simply have been afraid of controversy. Sadly the story suffers because of it.

Edited by Alric
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New heights in off-topicism have just been reached. We've discussed lesbians and gay men in WOT, prostitution and/or negotiable affection, tortures in fantasy - and now the new gem, Hitler-Ghandi comparison!

 

So, about the pillowfriends... :tongue:

 

Agreed, so back to topic. XD If you'll recall the time Cadsuane held the threat over the Sea Folk woman about her being pillow friends with someone, wasn't part of the reason that it was so effective was how seriously the Sea Folk would take the infidelity against her husband? I think this sheds light on to what extent pillow friends could take their relationship. Not to mention RJ's quote that was mentioned before.

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noones ever watched strictly enough to stop that

 

Even if there had not been an avatar or name in that post, I would have known who had made it...

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Hey this is bloodragon.... The answer to this riddle is in the book i just finished: "path of Daggers. A Pillow-Friend by any Other Name…

 

In common usage, both historically and today, a pillow-friend can be defined basically as someone or something with whom you share your bed; a pillow pal, bed fellow, or bed buddy. Beyond that, there is quite a range in the definition depending on how you choose to use the term. A pillow-friend can be as simple and innocent as the favorite stuffed teddy a child might sleep with, to as complex and mature as a pillow-friend who is a lover or sexual partner. Given the historical context in which the Wheel of Time is set, with its greater prevalence in the use of euphemisms than in our more blunt, straightforward times; and given a mature reader’s understanding of Jordan’s multi-layered and often indirect writing style; as well as what he has said on the subject outside of the books; the meaning of the term as Jordan uses it is actually quite clear: in the Wheel of Time, a pillow-friend is a lover or sexual partner, and – at least up to this point in the books - the term pillow-friends has been used exclusively as a descriptive for female same-sex relationships.

 

Jordan has in fact confirmed that this is indeed the definition he uses in the Wheel of Time:Personally I think Aviendah, Elayne and Min would be good "Pillowfriends" Should anything untoward happen to Rand.....lol

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Edited by bloodragon
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It is on the other hand weird how Siuan and Moiraine walk away from each other and this relationship, which tended to be very close from what we can gather from New Spring, just ceases to be without any kind of...Anything. Some people has criticized RJ for treating Siuan's and Moiraine's relatinship not seriously enough, in "lesbian until graduation" kind of way. But who knows how this relationships really work? Certainly not me :wink:

Considering New Spring:

 

The Moiraine/Siuan relationship wasn't exactly treated badly, but compared to other relationships it was not done as well as we have come to expect from RJ.

 

Part of the problem is New Spring. The ending was way too short. After Moiraine kills Merean (brave badass Moiraine at her best :wub: ) everything just apruptly ends. Moiraine and Siuan's goodbye is barely mentioned and practically on the next page she bonds Lan and its over. NS suffers because of that abrupt ending. I'm not sure if he did it that way because he expected to follow up with a sequel shortly (but later they were put on hold) or that he was pushed to work on the main series. But that fact is unfortunate both for NS and for Moiraine/Siuan.

 

I would love to see books that cover the 20 years from when Moiraine bonded Lan to finding Rand in Emonds Field.

 

FYI, I love your Avatar.

Edited by Ryrin
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and how does the pillow friend relate to the sock monkey?

 

I have to admit, I Lol'd a little after reading pillow friend and monkey, but maybe that's just me

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I would love to see books that cover the 20 years from when Moiraine bonded Lan to finding Rand in Emonds Field.

Definitely. There is so much I'm curious about that would have made excellent books. And not just for the hardcore fans. Tam's story begs to be told. How did Siuan manage to end up being a candidate for Amyrlin - that story must be incredibly interesting because I can't imagine her being patient enough for the amount of diplomacy needed :laugh:. And Moiraine who was probably on the run from the Tower for all those years. The almost-Queen of Cairhien with the almost-King of Malkier adventuring across the continent - I would have loved to read it. Thom would have been fun to follow, both during his time with Morgase, the events around Owyn, and was he involved in the killing of Taringail? I'm sure there would be some interesting bits about the Black Ajah and the Forsaken as well and tons of cameos from familiar characters like in NS (I loved those bits - fan service at its best).

 

And somewhat more back on topic, RJ could have repaired some of his handling of Siuan/Moiraine in these books too.

 

 

FYI, I love your Avatar.

 

Thanks, I love that image. Shame that the scene in the book isn't as epic as it had deserved to be.

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And where and when under the Light would Moiraine have had time to fall in love with Thom? And when would he have had time to be with her? I mean, when they meet in EotW there is no "flicker of recognition"...

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And where and when under the Light would Moiraine have had time to fall in love with Thom? And when would he have had time to be with her? I mean, when they meet in EotW there is no "flicker of recognition"...

 

It happens ove the course of the series, but is somewhat subtle. Do a re-read and listen to the comments as they speak about each other, and about love and marriage and so forth.

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As I recall, RJ once mentioned the intended prequels to span New Spring to Emond's Field, and Tam's story, with following outriggers following Mat and Tuon.

 

Also, a number of people in this thread are looking for the term "situational homosexuality", a relatively well-documented phenomenon.

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And where and when under the Light would Moiraine have had time to fall in love with Thom? And when would he have had time to be with her? I mean, when they meet in EotW there is no "flicker of recognition"...

 

its probably the pattern meddling again. theyve had a lot more contact than the first of mayene and the lord commander of the children of the light. And you know what happened there. And the same with min and rand after a conversation lasting only a few minutes.

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I would love to see books that cover the 20 years from when Moiraine bonded Lan to finding Rand in Emonds Field.

Definitely. There is so much I'm curious about that would have made excellent books. And not just for the hardcore fans. Tam's story begs to be told. How did Siuan manage to end up being a candidate for Amyrlin - that story must be incredibly interesting because I can't imagine her being patient enough for the amount of diplomacy needed :laugh:. And Moiraine who was probably on the run from the Tower for all those years. The almost-Queen of Cairhien with the almost-King of Malkier adventuring across the continent - I would have loved to read it. Thom would have been fun to follow, both during his time with Morgase, the events around Owyn, and was he involved in the killing of Taringail? I'm sure there would be some interesting bits about the Black Ajah and the Forsaken as well and tons of cameos from familiar characters like in NS (I loved those bits - fan service at its best).

 

And somewhat more back on topic, RJ could have repaired some of his handling of Siuan/Moiraine in these books too.

 

 

FYI, I love your Avatar.

 

Thanks, I love that image. Shame that the scene in the book isn't as epic as it had deserved to be.

 

 

 

Those other things you mentioned would be wonderful additions in new books.

 

Also Tigraine... Tigraine received advice from Gitara Moroso that the fate of the world depended on her journeying into the Aiel Waste to join the maidens, thus becoming Rand's mother.... and the Black Ajah's attempts to find him.

 

 

We can only hope Brandon Sanderson will change his mind.

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