egwene hate thread

[Guest PiotrekS]

I feel you're playing with what is most sacred to me, i.e. my success at proselytism to Egwene hatred.

 

Cats are cruel creatures.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

mwahahahahahahahahaha... *cough*

 

 

tell me more about why you hate egwene... details... quotes... please.

[Guest PiotrekS]

I'm totally immune to taunting. To describe my attitude to the topic, let me borrow another wonderful quote from ISAM:

 

I am not emotional. My emotions are cold like a winter blizzard.

\

 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

please, i know there's more in there. you've honestly wrtten some of the best reasoned arguments for this character's craptitude on the site. but everywhere else they get shouted down by trolls who don't even read what you're saying or pretend not to understand it.

 

i don't think that'll happen here.

 

not taunting, asking nicely.

[Guest PiotrekS]

And now you're flattering me

 

That's my weak spot, I'm vain as a peacock

There are generally two main kinds of anti-Egwene posts, those which explain why she is disliked (there randsc was probably leading, many others as well), others which criticized the writing of her arc. The latter was my specialty

 

I think that's good, it's from Drekka Mort (thread-"Egwene lying to world leaders"):

Yep. Just like she spent 5 minutes with the Aiel and was, like, super uber Aiel-like, now shes spent 5 minutes being Aes Sedai and is more Aes Sedai than any of them.

 

Maybe if she spent 5 minutes with Rand she could teach him a few things about the Age of Legends.

 

And that's something I wrote, I feel really a little narcissistic quoting myself, but I have no strength left to write it all again

 

I think that "Egwene controversy" on the forums is caused to some extent by the lack of any balancing out of her "awesomness" in the books. Every other character has some major drawbacks, gets criticized or is shown in a way which prompts the reader to question them (e.g. when Rand destroys Natrim's Barrow - wow, he's powerful and smart, but OMG what is he doing?!It's evil!)

 

In Egwene's case, I get the impression her story is told specifically in order to create a particular "image" of Egwene in the eyes of the reader - great Amyrlin. We're not shown her "as she is" (in an imagined world of WOT, I'm aware of that), with some good actions and some bad actions and we - the readers - are not allowed by the author to make up our own minds about Egwene. Her arc reads as though it was written by the White Tower's PR department.

 

I think all these discussions come from the unbalanced way she is portrayed in the books - if somebody does not "buy" her pure and unlimited awesomness, then the only place to express this frustration is the forum, because in the books you can find just another praise of Egwene...and another...and another.

 

It changed a little in ToM though, and, what's interesting, a few Egwene's fans have criticized ToM because in their eyes the portrayal of her character has strayed from the shining path from TGS. In my eyes, it was a relief and possibly the best Brandon has done to this character, making her a little more believable.

 

Another thing is inconsistency in Egwene's narration throughout the series. In the first few books, she is one of important characters (on par with Nynaeve, Elayne, Moiraine) while the Dragon is clearly the central piece of the story. Further on, Egwene get elevated to a more important place, culminating in TGS where the whole strory shows her and Rand as two equally important elements. Even now the "confrontation between Rand and Egwene" in the AMoL is discussed more than Rand's confrontation with the DO! It seems as though RJ realised halfway through that Egwene should have more important role to play and suddenly "boosted" her up to her current level - but her previous history does not justify it! There is no "in-story" reason to believe Egwene is as essential to the Last Battle as the Dragon - but the story has been written for some time as though she is!The best example are parallel plotlines of Rand fighting against his inner darkness and Egwene regaining the Tower in TGS.

 

Just my two cents. To conclude, there are lots of the characters in WOT I dislike more than Egwene, but only Egwene is the character where my feelings go "against the story" so to speak, which causes me to feel disconnected and lessens my enjoyment of the books a little (I still enjoy them very much).

 

And another one, is a more polemical tone:

 

First, whether Rand "features" in a certain tome is not relevant. What I pointed at was his overall role in the story which is absolutely central even in the books he scarcely appears in. If he's gone, the story would make no sense. Egwene, on the other hand, while being an important element, was not central to the plot. She wasn't mentioned in the prophecies, the DO didn't care about her too much.

 

Later, this clear composition of the overall story got distorted - in TGS, we get the feeling that somehow Egwene's power over the White Tower is equally cricial as Rand "light v. dark" fight, which makes no sense from the point of view of previous books. That was my point, it had nothing to do with "page time" for various characters.

 

Second, I have no problem with success. Neither mine, nor other people's and what's more, irrespective of their gender. But true success is built on hard work and requires a lot of growth, while in Egwene's case we get only achievements without any foundations. The only case where we see Egwene work hard for some significant time is her Dreaming training with the Wise Ones - and you might notice I've never said a bad word about Egwene's Dreaming achievements.

Her other successes, mainly in channeling and politics, are obviously "deus ex machina-like" and rightly remind many readers of Mary Sue.

 

How can you explain her stunning channeling technique in TGS, while her channeling training was cut short, she'd never been shown as a talent larger than Elayne or Nynaeve before and she had absolutely no time to return to it after leaving Tar Valon? How do you explain her bottomless knowledge of White Tower history and law while she had only a short, makeshift training with Siuan in these matters? Yet somehow she was able to totally dominate sisters who'd supposedly studied these matters for years.

 

The answer is simple - the perfect Amyrlin must be a perfect channeler, so RJ made Egwene a perfect channeler in TGS. The perfect Amyrlin should know White Tower law and history better than anyone, so Egwene does - even though it makes no sense from the perspective of earlier books! She is a perfect Amyrlin, who has little in common with Egwene the hard working girl - but that's too bad, I guess.

 

If you're able to show me an example of vast historical and legal studies Egwene has undertaken to outwit all sisters she discussed with (evening talks with Siuan are not enough -we're talking about years of deep study these sisters had)...Or if you're able to point me to the pages where Egwene acquired this vast experience in dealing with warders that allowed her to give sage advice about this to the sister who had had a warder probably for decades - I'll recant all my critique of Egwene as a literary character.

 

Oh yes - and this "genius" ploy of hers and Siuan's to give her more power by making the Hall to declare war against Elaida. Why hasn't the Hall take another resolution in next five minutes to declare peace with Elaida? Answer is again simple - plot convenience.

 

The "legandary Amyrlin" at last - maybe you don't realise it, but you actually support my point. You don't become "legendary" in the first year in office, when most important work is yet to be done. You are just as impatient in giving to Egwene this "legendary status" as RJ was. Compare it to Moirane, who was also called "legendary" - first we're told her story, shown how awesome she was, then after some time the word "legend" appears. In Egwene's case, we have "legendary Amyrlin" in her description:" Short girl, dark hair, legendary Amyrlin". It makes no sense to read about her further on - what will she do? Obviously, the best that can be done! She's the legendary Amyrlin after all...

 

Another:

What would make Egwene's arc in TGS more believable to me? First thing that comes to mind- throw away the scene where an old, experienced Aes Sedai asks Egwene, (who is a teenager and who's never had a warder) for advice how to deal with this warder's problems (it was ageing, as I recall ).And Egwene solemnly answers with something very wise, of course. There is such a thing as carrying your point too far.

 

I have never had problems with the suspension of disbelief when reading fantasy, but I couldn't bear this. Try to imagine yourself in analogous situation and decide if it makes any kind of sense. When did Egwene have the time to become Master Yoda, I ask

 

There might also be a subjective difference in our perception of the style of writing. Maybe you have no problem with accepting that people can be so great as to be almost perfect without any significant development and growth process (I don't forget about Wise Ones, Siuan etc. I think that is simply not enough), so when a character is written in such a way it doesn't strike you as odd or unrealistic.

 

I, on the other hand, remember some opinions I held when I was younger and I can't believe I could be so dumb So I think that to grow you have to get through a lot of experiences, suffer a crisis or two, make some serious mistakes. You don't become such a superhuman as Egwene in TGS just like that.

 

It is very well shown in case of Rand and that's why I think RJ did much better with creating his character than Egwene. He could relate to his own experiences, especially concerning war and cold-blooded killing. In case of Egwene, her arc reads superficial and implausible to me.

 

I would love to read Egwene's story written by Marion Zimmer Bradley.

 

Egwene's problem is writing imho and precisely, badly handled character-growth:

PiotrekS, on 26 April 2011 - 02:51 AM, said:

Character growth means some internal change, a development in the character's ways of thinking, moral beliefs, abilities, sometimes reexamining the ideas held before, sometimes periods of crisis when old beliefs and values are compromised and the new ones aren't available yet... Acceptance of loss, of prices that have to be paid, of your own imperfectness and necessities of reality.

 

In case of Egwene, there was only this: her abilities were getting stronger, stronger, stronger. Her power of will was getting stronger, stronger, stronger...

 

As for some more real and sophisticated character development, there was none. What Elan described were the effects that a wondeful character growth would have. The only problem is that this growth is missing and we are shown only its effects. That's why I think that Egwene arc is very badly written. RJ wanted Egwene to become a certain kind of person, but he had no real idea how to get her there IMO (and no wonder, since it was probably impossible for a teenager to become a Personified Institution in a year or so).

 

In terms of character growth, Egwene's and Rand's arcs are examples of very bad and very good writing from the same author. If more of WOT were written similarly to Egwene's arc, I'm sure I wouldn't be a fan of the series.

 

To provide a positive example, Nynaeve's character growth is done very well. She is still herself, but some of her traits are developed, some are consciously reduced, all is plausible and makes sense.

 

^^^^ This. A character in a novel can achieve great things without ever growing or changing.

 

What I've learned:

- there is a bloody huge number of pages of Egwene discussions out there. I was just a small fish in a ocean that had sharks and big octopusses.

- what is really interesting is what is in Egwene that sparked such a huge discussion and seriously helped to generate traffic at Dragonmount?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

thank you!

 

tip of the iceberg, but the onle really sensible and non trolly arguments on the WOT boards.

[paetric]

Ohhhh great points/posts!

 

We need to start a Egghead haters club.

[Guest PiotrekS]

You're too nice!

 

I needed something to detach myself from real life problems when I jumped into Egwene discussion. Funny how seriously some people treated it.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

you guys should be the presidents of that club.

 

this isn't even 5% of piotreks work in the cause.

 

piotrek, paetric, paetric, piotrek.

 

enjoy

[paetric]

Yeah it makes a lot of ppl mad to bad mouth Egghead. But it makes more people mad to bad mouth RJ.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

you are too modest, Piotrek, and you KNOW your hatred of this character is burning and true.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Yeah it makes a lot of ppl mad to bad mouth Egghead. But it makes more people mad to bad mouth RJ.

 

 

i don't see how you can do one without the other.

 

she did not write herself.

 

this is an author fail.

 

he wasn't perfect. he was good. for a while real good.

 

but this he screwed up.

[Lessa Nikia]

I don't hate Egwene however there have been times when I truely wanted to beat some sense into her. The same for a few other characters: Rand, Tuon, Perrin, Elyane, Nynaeve and Siuan to name a few

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

please, tell us why.

 

and... i think you'd have to find another way to get some sense into her cause the beatings definitely don't teach her anything.

[Turin Turambar]

LOL cindy. So true. She loved her beatings.

[Guest PiotrekS]

My hatred for Egwene is old and stale. After writing all this, I feel my part is done. Let the new generation of anti-Egweners proudly carry on!

 

I'll sign in to the club though

 

And Cindy, 5%? Seriously? I think it was more than 5%, at least I hope so! If I had really written on Eggy more than twenty times that, then my condition had been more serious than I thought

 

I agree with you about RJ btw. For me, Egwene in TGS is the lowest point of the series in terms of writing (apart from small chapters such as Hinderstrap). It is a pretty minority opinon, it seems many readers loved how "awesome" she was.

 

What was funny about all those discussions about Eggy, arguments flying back and forth etc. is that I have never been able to get a response from even the most zelous Egwene lovers on one small scene from TGS where Egwene was giving advice on warders to an experienced Aes Sedai sister. I posted about it three or four times, asking specifically what did they think about it in terms of writing. I was thoroughly ignored. We were discussing more equivocal scenes to death, but when something openly ridiculous showed up, it was ignored and the discussion happily carried on. Funny.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

which scene? it's hard to look stuff up on audiobook. and I can't make myself re buy the series n kindle.

 

ugh, yeah, hinderstap. that was just so bad. like a creative writing exercise he'd done in high school with the names changed to fit in the series. how do they let him get away with garbage like that...

[Guest PiotrekS]

In chapter "Unexpected Encounters" in TGS there is a string of scenes where Egwene is asked for advice by different Aes Sedai under the guise of testing her - e.g. she is asked how she would deal with a certain situation and she knows the sister asking has a very similar problem in her life. It is supposed to show that Egwene, the perfect Amyrlin, is gradually gaining the respect of the sisters and helping them with her wisdom. The thing I menioned is proceeded by a few similar encounters, after that we read:

At the meeting with Nagora, Egwene found herself being trained in logic - and the "logical puzzles" presented sounded very similar to a request for help in dealing with a Warder who was growing frustrated with his increasing age and inability to fight. Egwene gave what help she could, which Nagora declared to be "logic without flaw" before releasing her.

 

So we have probably an experienced sister (since her warder has grown old, probably he hadn't been bonded in old age), who's had a warder for a long time and she is asking Egwene - a teenager who never had a warder - for advice on how to handle the problems of againg warder! The disconnect between "perfect Amyrlin" and Egwene, as described in previous books, has never been greater.

 

Hinderstap...All respect for Brandon, but that should have been edited out.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

not a real lot of respect for... well, that's obvious no need to go on. but that chapter was... zombies? really? got nothing else that needed resolving, so lets fluff this thing out with some zombies? lordy.

 

i guess we're expected to believe that eggs managed to absorb all the knowledge of the womens circle by the time she left the field so she'd know how to handle anything....

 

yeah, i never caught that cause i tend to zone out on the parts that... zone me out.

 

it is ridiculous.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

btw... if you join the BT.. and you should... as should everyone who finds themselves getting tired of having the same endless debates with the same people on the "serious" discussion boards," you should sign up for 100 questions for points... and you should ask questions of others who sign up... they don;t all have to be egwene related but... they can if you like

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/66401-game-100-questions-for-points/

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

and here's something i just remembered about egwene and why she may be a kind of crappy character... maybe RJ was basing her more than a little on guinivere (sp? don't know, don't care).

 

guin was definitely a dark character in most of the arthur legends. and fated to betray al'thor/arthur. not necessarily seuxally as in the legend, but betray him nonetheless.

 

she was weak and strong at the same time, and...

 

ok, someone smarter than me can figure that out.

 

but she was noone to really look up to.

[Lessa Nikia]

I don't know why, I just wanted to. It was the only way I could think of for her to see sense but that's me

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

can't hurt.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i'm thinking it might take her doing something with such horrible repercussions she finally realizes the magnitude of her own megalomany (is that a word? if not i'm making it oone), like guin did... but don't know if that's how itll go. would like it to, but no high hopes at this point.

[Guest PiotrekS]

btw... if you join the BT.. and you should... as should everyone who finds themselves getting tired of having the same endless debates with the same people on the "serious" discussion boards," you should sign up for 100 questions for points... and you should ask questions of others who sign up... they don;t all have to be egwene related but... they can if you like

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/66401-game-100-questions-for-points/

 

I'll gladly join BT because I clearly see you are awesome

 

The link doesn't work though It tells me they could not determine which forum the topic was in. Or does it only work after I've joined the BT? Probably that's the case.

 

I have two questions:

1. How do I join?

2. What do you do in BT?(stupid question, I know). What are the points for? Are there any obligations? If I can't post for some time (or have nothing to say which happens sometimes ), is it ok or am I thrown out/balefired? I'm not well versed in Internet social communities, so please forgive my ignorance!