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Mesaana and Alviarin

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Hey guys, here's my question. What happened to the whole Mesaana hating Alviarin issue? RJ made such a big deal of the Shaidar Haran marking Alviarin and Mesaana hating Alviarin, that I thought this was going to have some sort of story line. But at the battle in the White Tower, it seems that Mesaana does not even think about it, and Alviarin is simply working for her again. Does Alviarin being marked still have some role to play? What do you think?

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Hey guys, here's my question. What happened to the whole Mesaana hating Alviarin issue? RJ made such a big deal of the Shaidar Haran marking Alviarin and Mesaana hating Alviarin, that I thought this was going to have some sort of story line. But at the battle in the White Tower, it seems that Mesaana does not even think about it, and Alviarin is simply working for her again. Does Alviarin being marked still have some role to play? What do you think?

 

RJ mentions the mark as allowing shadowspawn to identify her. They will not obey her like a chosen but won't try to kill her either. Somewhat like the tattoo some people put inside the ear of their dog so others will know who it belongs to.

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I've been thinking about this topic, and more and more, I think it shows the difference between what we expected from Jordan versus what we get from Sanderson. With Jordan, I expected a build up in the fighting between the good/evil sides; perhaps we didn't have a POV from one, but we certainly knew what was going on. What Sanderson gave us was strictly from Egwene's POV. Period. Cut and dried, straight to the point.

 

When they found Mesaana and her true identity, I was... well, it was disappointing, even though a pet theory was correct. Anyone else feel...let down when the information was given?

 

~~EDIT

I want to make it clear that Sanderson is doing a great job in a tough situation, in my opinion. My comments here should NOT be taken as a "Sanderson ruined the series" sort of opinion.

Edited by Dreggs Morlock

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I feel the same things as you do reguarding that element Dreggs. The Black Ajah in particular become nothing but plot pieces in TofM, but then the Shadow played this role often in TofM--standing up so that the Light can triumphantly knock them down. Graendal and Perrin is another example.

 

In reguards to the Mesaana/Danelle reveal, I agree... the funny thing is a nice moment could have been made of it if Egwene hadn't magically intuited against all she had ever been led to believe that Mesaana had found a way around the Oaths, then Sanderson could have had Egwene realise early in TofM that Mesaana was still in the Tower (perhaps wrongly concluding her disguised as a novice/accepted/servant) allowing her to set her trap, and then afterwards the reveal of Danelle could have been used as a powerful blow against the confidence Aes Sedai have in the inviobility Oaths--even if its just them freaking out about someone learning that Mesaana was able to violate them in some way.

 

This is what I mean when I say that as a result of the speed with which Brandon produced the novel plot tended to be slapped down in the bluntest, most obvious manner, and why I am deeply glad that more time is being taken this time around.

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Agreed, and said much better than I could have.

 

After reading the discovery of Mesaana, I kept expecting to see a Alviarin POV flashing back to those moments when everything went up in smoke... especially when you consider the shock they must have had when they could not "teleport out", as their plans seemed to be. Instead, it is left for the good guys/Moridin to let us know why things worked out the way they did.

 

In the end, the longer the Jordan team takes to iron everything out, the better. Oh....and hopefully, they are listening, as Sanderson seemed to after GS. Matrim was hugely improved between books, so I have high hopes for MoL.

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This is what I mean when I say that as a result of the speed with which Brandon produced the novel plot tended to be slapped down in the bluntest, most obvious manner, and why I am deeply glad that more time is being taken this time around.

 

Bingo. I want them to take all year with it. Releasing it before the deadline would be worse than after IMO

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This is what I mean when I say that as a result of the speed with which Brandon produced the novel plot tended to be slapped down in the bluntest, most obvious manner, and why I am deeply glad that more time is being taken this time around.

 

Bingo. I want them to take all year with it. Releasing it before the deadline would be worse than after IMO

 

Ditto, it just shocks me every time someone mentions how fast BS can write or that the polish doesn't matter. Worse yet I have seen people actually propose putting out a "rough" version and then cleaning it up after(thank God we know that isn't an option). I am really excited to see what Brandon can do with the extra time.

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while Alviarin was correct in thinking that Messena would want her dead for seeing her punished, Messena was in the dog house and wouldn't have been game to "step out of line" and kill someone marked as the Dark Lords.

 

i think given time to improve her position, she would have certainly made short work of Alviarin.

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Sanderson was given the totally unenviable job of cramming ten pounds of stuff into a five pound bag. Jordan had promised "Just one more book.", but that was a promise he couldn't have delivered on any more than Sanderson could have.

 

I've said it before and I will repeat it now, Jordan was always three books away from finishing. Had he lived, after The Gathering Storm he still would have been three books away from finishing, and after Towers of Midnight still three books away.

 

To Brandon Sanderson's credit he was unwilling to sacrifice his own life and his own career to writing the remainder of the Wheel of Time in the same fashion that Jordan would have. With Sanderson, we will get to read the end of the story. With Jordan we would have all died of old age and the story would have still been three books away from being finished.

 

Brandon Sanderson was given a nearly impossible task and he has done nothing but the most commendable work accomplishing it. And it has been accomplished. The last words have been put on the manuscript page. The story has been completed. Can't we all just be grateful that we each lived long enough to see that?

Edited by Bob T Dwarf

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I feel the same things as you do reguarding that element Dreggs. The Black Ajah in particular become nothing but plot pieces in TofM, but then the Shadow played this role often in TofM--standing up so that the Light can triumphantly knock them down. Graendal and Perrin is another example.

 

In reguards to the Mesaana/Danelle reveal, I agree... the funny thing is a nice moment could have been made of it if Egwene hadn't magically intuited against all she had ever been led to believe that Mesaana had found a way around the Oaths, then Sanderson could have had Egwene realise early in TofM that Mesaana was still in the Tower (perhaps wrongly concluding her disguised as a novice/accepted/servant) allowing her to set her trap, and then afterwards the reveal of Danelle could have been used as a powerful blow against the confidence Aes Sedai have in the inviobility Oaths--even if its just them freaking out about someone learning that Mesaana was able to violate them in some way.

 

This is what I mean when I say that as a result of the speed with which Brandon produced the novel plot tended to be slapped down in the bluntest, most obvious manner, and why I am deeply glad that more time is being taken this time around.

 

I am not sure I understand here. You are saying you wished Sanderson to write a different plotline than the one Jordan intended? I do see what you mean regarding the reveal and all else, but I think Sanderson was bound by Jordans plotline. It was Jordan who came up with the story, Sanderson was faithfully relating the tale as best he could.

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Man, I love these threads. By the time the end of the thread rolls around, we're discussing something totally different! I read all 13 books in around a month, with no prior exposure to the series at all. Thus, I found it hard to tell the difference between BS and RJ. Second and third time around, I can see where some of y'all are coming from. At any rate, I have the feeling that we are going to see Alviarin squashed like a bug some time early in AMoL.

 

I really do like the tangential nature of discussion. for real. not kidding.

Edited by JustKidding

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I feel the same things as you do reguarding that element Dreggs. The Black Ajah in particular become nothing but plot pieces in TofM, but then the Shadow played this role often in TofM--standing up so that the Light can triumphantly knock them down. Graendal and Perrin is another example.

 

In reguards to the Mesaana/Danelle reveal, I agree... the funny thing is a nice moment could have been made of it if Egwene hadn't magically intuited against all she had ever been led to believe that Mesaana had found a way around the Oaths, then Sanderson could have had Egwene realise early in TofM that Mesaana was still in the Tower (perhaps wrongly concluding her disguised as a novice/accepted/servant) allowing her to set her trap, and then afterwards the reveal of Danelle could have been used as a powerful blow against the confidence Aes Sedai have in the inviobility Oaths--even if its just them freaking out about someone learning that Mesaana was able to violate them in some way.

 

This is what I mean when I say that as a result of the speed with which Brandon produced the novel plot tended to be slapped down in the bluntest, most obvious manner, and why I am deeply glad that more time is being taken this time around.

 

I am not sure I understand here. You are saying you wished Sanderson to write a different plotline than the one Jordan intended? I do see what you mean regarding the reveal and all else, but I think Sanderson was bound by Jordans plotline. It was Jordan who came up with the story, Sanderson was faithfully relating the tale as best he could.

 

There are many places where RJ just had a broad outline and BS had to figure out how to fill it in.

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I feel the same things as you do reguarding that element Dreggs. The Black Ajah in particular become nothing but plot pieces in TofM, but then the Shadow played this role often in TofM--standing up so that the Light can triumphantly knock them down. Graendal and Perrin is another example.

 

In reguards to the Mesaana/Danelle reveal, I agree... the funny thing is a nice moment could have been made of it if Egwene hadn't magically intuited against all she had ever been led to believe that Mesaana had found a way around the Oaths, then Sanderson could have had Egwene realise early in TofM that Mesaana was still in the Tower (perhaps wrongly concluding her disguised as a novice/accepted/servant) allowing her to set her trap, and then afterwards the reveal of Danelle could have been used as a powerful blow against the confidence Aes Sedai have in the inviobility Oaths--even if its just them freaking out about someone learning that Mesaana was able to violate them in some way.

 

This is what I mean when I say that as a result of the speed with which Brandon produced the novel plot tended to be slapped down in the bluntest, most obvious manner, and why I am deeply glad that more time is being taken this time around.

 

I am not sure I understand here. You are saying you wished Sanderson to write a different plotline than the one Jordan intended? I do see what you mean regarding the reveal and all else, but I think Sanderson was bound by Jordans plotline. It was Jordan who came up with the story, Sanderson was faithfully relating the tale as best he could.

 

It's pretty much as Suttree stated--especially in regards to things like the Danelle reveal. Jordan would have notated who she was, and it was for Brandon to work it in and write the specifics of the scene.

 

That being said, Brandon is not bound by RJ's notes. He has full creative freedom, and has gone against the notes in the past--for instance in splitting Egwene's dinners with Elaida and all that went on between the two dinners was one such shift--which I agree with, incidentally. And too there are no doubt elements of the novel that RJ himself would have changed when it came down to writing it, so I fully support Brandon employing his creative freedom should it be necessary--for instance I've said many times, and maintain, that had the Graendal/Perrin arc being noted Brandon should have gone against the notes there and developed the arc much further.

 

But yeah, when it comes to the Danelle thing, I've no doubt that the extent of Jordan's notes was 'Mesaana is disguised as Danelle'.

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But didn't we already guess Mesaana was Danelle like...a year ago or more? Were we expecting to be surprised or something, like when you read the reveal you'd suddenly forget that we knew that already? "*gasp!! It's Danelle!?!?!?!?!?"

 

I like that the fight between Mesaana and Egwene was a test of wills, and that Egwene was still learning what Perrin had already learned about Tel'aran'rhiod - that skill there is really based on imagination and conviction of will. It was kind of interesting that Mesaana's mind was broken in that way; likely the only person who could have Restored her was Semirhage or Graendal...any Aes Sedai of this Age with that sort of skill wouldn't use it to Heal a Forsaken.

 

I wasn't "disappointed" per se...but it wasn't a huge surprise or anything. I don't know how you would write a surprise reveal when everyone had already figured it out.

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But didn't we already guess Mesaana was Danelle like...a year ago or more?

 

Try, like, ten years ago.

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