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The True Nature of the Creator and Dark One...


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I want to see everyones' theories on the nature of the Creator and Dark One. It does not matter if your theories have been debunked already or not, I would still like to see them.

 

It's already been explained that the Dark One is the antithesis of the Creator. They are equal and opposit in every way.

 

The theory that I had for a long time was that the Dark One and Creator are actually the offspring of the True Source (Or that they are actually two halves of the same being and make up the True Source as a whole). This would explain why they are both able to draw onto it. (I am assuming that the power the creator used to create the universe comes from the True Source, just as the True Power. used by the DO, does). Both the Creator and Dark One take the power of the True Source into their bodies to either be purified by the goodness of the Creator or Corrupted by the evil of the Dark One. The True Source itself it the source of all things, both good and evil. The Wheel of Time and the Pattern and all other things created by the Creator draw upon the version of the Power that is within his being, just as the Dark One if able to use his version (The True Power) to fulfill his designs. So, the True Source created both good (The Creator), and evil (The Dark One), and allowed the Dark One to sealed so that there would be a balance, with the Dark One's prison weakening to allow evil into the world to offset the power of good. Then, when evil grows too powerful, the Creator would be allowed to cause the birth of the Chosen of Light to defeat and reseal the Dark One. It is an endless cycle of Balance. I am also assuming that when the Dark One is defeated at the Last Battle of each turning, his prison is fully remade, such as it was before the Bore was made, so his evil can no touch the world until it is time for him to be freed again.

Edited by Dagon Thyne
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Ahh, first post back from a prolonged absence. Excellent question, I always enjoy it.

 

My theory.

 

The creator = creation. The Dark One = Destruction.

 

Basically, they are equal opposites, and this explains their actions.

 

It explains the creators absence from the whole thing. S/he isn't "good" and the Dark One "evil", although the characters would certainly perceive them in such terms. The creator does not take part in the events of the world because s/he is a force of creation, not salvation or good. He creates, and once that is done, s/he has no role to play.

 

The DO, however, being the force of destruction has a job to do. Thinking on a broader scale than just the pattern, which in has yet to be destroyed, on a more cosmic level, it is possible that the creator creates a million patterns and the DO has destroyed equally as much. Of course, all conjecture on my part, but it fits in to my theory.

 

SO the DO's task is solely to destroy, by any means possible. This explains quite a few things.

1. A motivation for the DO. Because, really, WHAT do we know of the DO's motivations? So far as the story goes, he has none at all! Thus, if i was correct, it would be a case of the DO's nature. It's his job to destroy the pattern, as a force of destruction, s/he destroys everything.

 

2. It works well with Moridin's "truth" as of the Gathering Storm, that he reveals to Rand. That the DO doesn't plan to rebuild the pattern in his image, nor give his chosen eternal life and power in the new world. Rather, existence itself would be destroyed.

 

3. It explains the True Power. Looking at the True Power and its difference between the OP, mainly in TOM and TGS. It is said the pattern screams when the TP is used. That the use of the TP drills holes in the pattern etc... So the TP being more or less the "essence" of the DO, if the DO was destruction, the TP would definitely fit the bill of being "essence of destruction."

 

 

Last note on the prison of the DO. Not sure if anyone else has had a problem with it, but the DO and Creator have always been depicted as "equal opposites" from RJs remarks on the subject. Yet, somehow, the DO managed to get itself imprisoned by the creator? It doesn't really fit in.

 

Well, if my theory was correct, it does. The "prison", in my opinion, is something that is perceived by the characters, not a "fact". From their point of view, it would be a prison keeping the DO out of the prison, as existence outside of the pattern is something very hard to contemplate. However, on a cosmic scale, i think of it as such:

 

The pattern is like Earth (not a planet, but to explain, bear with me.) Imagine the pattern as a huge planet-like Wheel, or whatever is easiest to imagine. An object with clear boundaries. The Creator and Dark One are like the Moon and Sun in so far as they are outside of the earth, in space. (outside the pattern, in whatever...is outside the pattern...) The creator has erected a massive wall around the Pattern. (like the atmosphere of earth, but a little more secure) The Dark One, as a force of destruction, is trying to get inside that wall (the pattern) to destroy the yummy yolk inside (humans, life itself as we know it, etc...)

 

Thus, the pattern itself is the one "imprisoned" in this theory, protected by a shell so the DO has a hard time destroying it, courtesy of the blessed Creator.

 

Well, that's the jist of it, any questions about it, feel free to ask, although I may not have the answers. Havent really gone into too much detail on the theory.

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A question that's bothered me for a while is this. If the Creator and the DO are in balance, equal and opposite, how does anything manage to get created and stay that way? Equally, when it is destroyed, why doesn't it stay destroyed?

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A question that's bothered me for a while is this. If the Creator and the DO are in balance, equal and opposite, how does anything manage to get created and stay that way? Equally, when it is destroyed, why doesn't it stay destroyed?

 

The way I see it, is both creation and destruction are necessary. That has been one of the things RJ has talked about, that one cannot exist without the other etc..

 

Therefore, every creation it is equally possible for it to be destroyed.

 

If there was something that could not be destroyed, or something that was destroyed forever, then wouldn't it mean that the balance is unequal?

 

For the Wheel itself, I think that it is up to the people in it to stop its destruction. (therefore, the whole I WILL NOT TAKE PART.)

 

With both forces balanced equally, the humans can tip the balance either way. -> Enter WoT plot.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Ive always liked this (Barid Bel Medar) theory. I always thought along the same lines but you have really refined it... like when the dark one and the creator are viewed as good and evil it doesn't make sense because if the creator was good he would stop suffering but him being a creative force matchs in with his actions (or lack of) thoughout the series. The same goes for the DO. Also the concept of good and evil has always seemed... naff to me, espacially in fantasy series... and the way the DO and the creator paired up mirrors some physical notions which we know RJ knew about from his science background... :biggrin:

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A question that's bothered me for a while is this. If the Creator and the DO are in balance, equal and opposite, how does anything manage to get created and stay that way? Equally, when it is destroyed, why doesn't it stay destroyed?

Because while they might be equal and opposite, they are not simultaneous. One acts (Creator creates), then the other acts (Shai'tan destroys).
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Ive always liked this (Barid Bel Medar) theory. I always thought along the same lines but you have really refined it... like when the dark one and the creator are viewed as good and evil it doesn't make sense because if the creator was good he would stop suffering but him being a creative force matchs in with his actions (or lack of) thoughout the series. The same goes for the DO.

 

But then you have to take into account free will. If the Creator gives his creatures (or some of them) free will, is it 'good' to limit that freedom by not allowing the choice of doing good things or bad things even if that choice sometimes leads to suffering? Would it be 'free will' at all then? After all, they don't have to fight/kill/steal etc...

 

(Sorry, danger of going seriously OT here..)

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Ive always liked this (Barid Bel Medar) theory. I always thought along the same lines but you have really refined it... like when the dark one and the creator are viewed as good and evil it doesn't make sense because if the creator was good he would stop suffering but him being a creative force matchs in with his actions (or lack of) thoughout the series. The same goes for the DO.

 

But then you have to take into account free will. If the Creator gives his creatures (or some of them) free will, is it 'good' to limit that freedom by not allowing the choice of doing good things or bad things even if that choice sometimes leads to suffering? Would it be 'free will' at all then? After all, they don't have to fight/kill/steal etc...

 

(Sorry, danger of going seriously OT here..)

 

No one really has true free will in the Wheel of Time. THey have small, unimpoartent choices, but not on any of the important things. The Pattern dictates the direction that a person's life will take. Take Min's visions for example. She see's the weaves of the pattern. No matter what a person wants or thinks,her visions ALWAYS come true.

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Ive always liked this (Barid Bel Medar) theory. I always thought along the same lines but you have really refined it... like when the dark one and the creator are viewed as good and evil it doesn't make sense because if the creator was good he would stop suffering but him being a creative force matchs in with his actions (or lack of) thoughout the series. The same goes for the DO.

 

But then you have to take into account free will. If the Creator gives his creatures (or some of them) free will, is it 'good' to limit that freedom by not allowing the choice of doing good things or bad things even if that choice sometimes leads to suffering? Would it be 'free will' at all then? After all, they don't have to fight/kill/steal etc...

 

(Sorry, danger of going seriously OT here..)

 

No one really has true free will in the Wheel of Time. THey have small, unimpoartent choices, but not on any of the important things. The Pattern dictates the direction that a person's life will take. Take Min's visions for example. She see's the weaves of the pattern. No matter what a person wants or thinks,her visions ALWAYS come true.

Sometimes the Pattern is more constrained than others. If the Pattern needs something to happen, it will make it happen. If it doesn't, things can go however they will.
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Yes, only Ishamael knows what is up. Not sure if even LTT understands the entire picture.

 

Even the other genius level intellects among the Forsaken are clueless (Aginor, Grandael), blinded by their greed for power.

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A question that's bothered me for a while is this. If the Creator and the DO are in balance, equal and opposite, how does anything manage to get created and stay that way? Equally, when it is destroyed, why doesn't it stay destroyed?

Because while they might be equal and opposite, they are not simultaneous. One acts (Creator creates), then the other acts (Shai'tan destroys).

 

I agree with Mr. Ares, and, from that, draw the conclusion that Elan/Ishy/Moridin is also wrong, kind of.

 

The creator creates infinetly, and the destroyer (DO/shai'tan) destroys infinetly. Going on the theory (which I like) of the Pattern itself being a boundary (prison), then sealing the DO out would be restoring the pattern to it's non-bored state.

 

However, out or in, Ishy is right, eventually, in the balance of power, Shai'tan will destroy the Pattern, but then, to maintain the balance, the creator will create another pattern, walled off the DO, and the whole thing will start again, so Ishy is also wrong, the the VoG revalation Rand has is correct. They are both wrong, and they are both correct...balance.

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I've always been curious as to why, if the Dark One has a physical presence somewhere, and is manipulating his followers... why doesn't the Creator have a similar presence, like an anti Shayul Ghul (sp?) where the Dragon can recieve guidance, and the Creator can marshall his own forces?

 

A Dark One that's out in the world trying to bring about its destruction while a Creator that is physically absent but sends forth his champion, ie the Dragon, just seems really Christian to me.

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I've always been curious as to why, if the Dark One has a physical presence somewhere, and is manipulating his followers... why doesn't the Creator have a similar presence, like an anti Shayul Ghul (sp?) where the Dragon can recieve guidance, and the Creator can marshall his own forces?

 

A Dark One that's out in the world trying to bring about its destruction while a Creator that is physically absent but sends forth his champion, ie the Dragon, just seems really Christian to me.

 

 

Fallon Blood book signing 12 October 1996, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Cincinnati, OH - Michael Martin reporting

 

Re: the Creator's "Inability" To Act On His Creation...Having encountered a similar "theology" in Donaldson's Covenant series, I have been quite curious why the Creator can't act on His own world. It didn't seem to make sense, except as a plot device. RJ answered this question. His thesis was this: A perfect Creator should create a perfect creation. To act, miraculously or no, on this world, would be tantamount to acknowleding imperfection in Himself. So, when humanity screwed things up, they've been left on their own to "patch" things up.

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A Dark One that's out in the world trying to bring about its destruction while a Creator that is physically absent but sends forth his champion, ie the Dragon, just seems really Christian to me.

 

 

The last thing I'm trying to do is begin a religious debate (I'm really REALLY not), but I think there are a few different-than-Christian elements at play here (if I may - in brief). It is my understanding that Christians would believe that God/Creator is still very much participatory in creation (in fact, humans are considered co-creators with God in His/her ever changing creation. "God's work, our hands" that sort of thing). In terms of God's physical manifestation, Jesus was said to be without sin (the "perfect" sacrifice, right?). I don't think Rand has been presented that way (in fact some characters that are seen as too "perfect" *cough*-Egwene-*cough* are viewed by some as quite distasteful), and in some ways I think that makes the story more interesting - this tension of being human and a hero. In fact we see many of the main characters struggle with this type of thing ("I'm just a blacksmith," "I just want to find a good dice game" etc. etc.) Jesus was also considered "fully God and fully man." Rand is a reborn hero (LTT) but as far as I'm aware, not an incarnation of the Creator him/herself. Also, after Jesus physically departed, the Holy Spirit is said to remain with humanity in His stead, dwelling inside of everyone (the third part of the Triune God, another difference from the singular WoT Creator).

 

Look, I'm not trying to start a fight at all, you know? I do think there are Christian similarities, obviously there are. But I think RJ probably "borrowed" from Christianity in as much as he borrowed from myriad other traditions and mythologies, right? That's where the richness comes in. To view this dichotomy as a strictly Christian metaphor I think is a disservice to BOTH Mr. Jordan and Christianity.

 

Stepping off of my soapbox...

Edited by finnland
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Mayhaps the Creator is the prison, yes indeedy.

 

Also, finnland, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Character of Jesus, but he was not said to be without sin - so it is written, every man sins and falls short of the glory of God and that includes the Son of Man. Surely you are familiar with the parable of the Prodigal Son, which is a parable about Jesus himself, the Prodigal Son? Perhaps it would help your understanding to know that Lucifer and Jesus are the same man. So the Character of Rand is in keeping with the Character of Jesus, although his falling onto his father in tears is a parallel rather than a mirror...besides, the "perfect sacrifice" as you have put it isn't about being without sin, it's about offering yourself up to death for being a sinner, something no true sinner would do. And also because you've got a goddamn job to do just like Jairus the Centurion (Rand realised he is a tool just like everyone else - which is pretty Jesus because Lucifer would not be the tool of an inferior creature, and this is actually the essence of the Dark One). So this is even the being a man/being a hero dichotomy you so astutely pointed out, which is indeed very Christian, yes indeedy. But we all know that Christianity itself borrowed from what was already established, just as RJ has done...

 

And God is not at all participatory in Creation - he created everything, sure, but he lives in Eden, where we do not (Creator and flower parallels for the win). He renders Judgment unto the Son and plays no part (i.e. he is impartial, and that is to be truly without sin), just like the Creator who gave his Champion the choice to do the job he was given. Myself, I interpret this story as just another interpretation of the Universal Secret of All Time (or gender conflict, if you will :P)

 

Sorry to single you out and force you into a debate you didn't want to start, but I thought it was the best way to make a point. I agree that RJ borrowed from more than just Christianity, but I think you've made some misinterpretations. Besides, if I'm right and the Creator is the Prison, then this even parallels Rand's internal struggle to find the light within himself (and where did the Darkness within him stem from? From being used), because if he gave in that would let the Dark One win. And ya know, Jesus said he would tear down the Temple and rebuild it in three days, and Rand is planning on destroying the seals and rebuilding the prison...

Edited by funsize
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I think you and I have very different understandings of certain elements of Christianity, and that is fine. In either case, we are both in agreement that in WoT the Creator/Dark One relationship draws from more than this one source, yes? Which, leaving aside theological differences and discussions, was my point, generally, and that to read the Wheel of Time through any singular particular "lens" - be it Christianity, Norse Mythology, history, etc. etc. - would be limiting.

Edited by finnland
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Besides, if I'm right and the Creator is the Prison,

 

Care to elaborate on this?

 

In addition I'm not all that religious but with my limited knowledge I will say it seems you have some odd notions in relation to Christianity.

Edited by Suttree
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Care to elaborate on these odd notions? How could you even be comfortable saying that with your limited knowledge?

 

The Dark One was originally sealed at the moment of Creation until Lanfear bore a hole in the pattern itself, freeing him. And this wasn't actually a specific location in the pattern cause it's all metaphysical and shit. And even Travelling with the True Power tears the pattern. And Rand has to destroy the seals and rebuild the prison, but if the Dark One was originally freed because of a hole in the pattern then the pattern is the prison, yes? But the pattern is creation itself, so if Dark One = Destruction then Creator = Creation, and there you have it. This even ties in with that Perfect Creator thing above, since, ya know, it's up to Creation to save itself...

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I think you and I have very different understandings of certain elements of Christianity, and that is fine. In either case, we are both in agreement that in WoT the Creator/Dark One relationship draws from more than this one source, yes? Which, leaving aside theological differences and discussions, was my point, generally, and that to read the Wheel of Time through any singular particular "lens" - be it Christianity, Norse Mythology, history, etc. etc. - would be limiting.

 

I agree with this. Also not wanting to start a religious debate, there are a wide variety of interpretations of Christianity, it's hardly a monolithic religion. It's kind of like when someone asked RJ about why there were so many Arthurian references in WoT, and his response was (and I paraphrase here) that there aren't necessarily more Arthurian references than there are of other mythologies, but that a Western audience who is more familiar with those references will obviously notice them more.

 

I think the same is true of Christianity. Americans, at least, are generally familiar with certain Christian symbolism. Even non-Christian or even non-religious people have usually absorbed enough of Christian symbolism through osmosis to be able to recognize similarities--most obvious being Rand's wounds and the wounds of Jesus. On the same token you ask the average person who Buddha is, they'll probably tell you that he's a bald fat guy who sits on a pillow. Which is totally incorrect if you're talking about Siddhartha Gautama, whose teaching Buddhism is based on. Just the same way the average reader probably has no clue about the Norse god references. Go out and ask a bunch of random people who Odin is, some will look at you blankly, a few will say he's a summon from Final Fantasy, and the rest will tell you he's a dog Garfield kicks off the table.

 

Now, keep in mind I'm talking about the average person here. I know there's a lot of people on this board who are well versed in history and world mythologies. The oh-so-off-topic point I'm trying to make is that WoT is so rich, with many layers of symbolism from a plethora of sources, that it's impossible to read them without some of it going over your head.

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Care to elaborate on these odd notions? How could you even be comfortable saying that with your limited knowledge?

 

Perhaps others can correct me if I'm wrong but I didn't think assertions such as Jesus has sinned and Lucifer and Jesus are one and the same would be considered mainstream Christian teachings?

 

The Dark One was originally sealed at the moment of Creation until Lanfear bore a hole in the pattern itself, freeing him. And this wasn't actually a specific location in the pattern cause it's all metaphysical and shit. And even Travelling with the True Power tears the pattern. And Rand has to destroy the seals and rebuild the prison, but if the Dark One was originally freed because of a hole in the pattern then the pattern is the prison, yes? But the pattern is creation itself, so if Dark One = Destruction then Creator = Creation, and there you have it. This even ties in with that Perfect Creator thing above, since, ya know, it's up to Creation to save itself...

 

Lanfear drilled through the pattern into the DO's prison.

 

BWB

It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison
Edited by Suttree
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i think ive all ready said this but dont be suprised if a thousand years

from now when they thaw our heads out and give us android bodies.

the wheel will be one of the major beliefs in the world.

i can see this happening after a major world wide cataclysm.

someone will find the books bundled together etc.........

new religion.

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Lanfear drilled through the pattern into the DO's prison.

 

BWB

It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside of the Pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison

 

 

 

Indeed. Whether or not my interpretation is wrong, that the DO is not imprisoned, but the pattern forms a wall effectively imprisoning Randland, the fact is, the "prison" is OUTSIDE of the pattern. He is sealed OUTSIDE of it, so I don't see how the pattern can be the prison when the DO is trying to get into the pattern.

 

Funsize, I can understand what your getting at, the Pattern being the prison, as Lanfear had to drill through the pattern for the DO to break free. It makes sense, but i think there is more to it than that. Ill an egg as an example. The yolk and such inside the egg = pattern, where Rand and stuff are going round doing their job. Trapped outside of the egg, or in a prison attached to the egg, the DO is hungry for some yolk (ie- nice juicy Randlanders.) But the eggshell is stopping him from getting in, as he doesnt have a spoon or any tools to get in. So the AOL Aes Sedai get good technology with the OP and they can feel this presence, a power, just outside of the egg, and they have already got their fill of yolk, so they want whatever this new "power" is. As it happened, it was the DO. So Lanfear drills a hole and cracks the eggs shell. (in fact, i think RJ even used that metaphorically, as darkness cracking through and destroying the Sharom) At last, the DO sees the tiny crack and is happy, because he can get at the yummy yolk. However, the hole isn't wide enough, and he can only put the tip of his finger through. Cue- what we already know about the War of Power.

 

So, the points of that story.

 

1. The DO is destroying the pattern. That's what he wants to do, and, as we have seen from the evidence in-book, he is doing a good job, unraveling the pattern and such. Since this is the case, how on earth can the pattern be the prison, when the DO is destroying it with relative speed. After only a few years, the pattern is almost completely unravelled. How could this same pattern have imprisoned him for thousands of years? Impossible.

 

2. I say that the key factor is the "eggshell". Attached to the pattern. Its kind of like the pattern's atmosphere (but instead of sun-rays, it keeps out DO's). Thus, if we can establish that this "atmosphere", which had previously kept the DO out, has now got a hole in it, what is this atmosphere actually made of?

 

3. It could be that your theory that the Creator is the prison, is valid. The DO was sealed by the creator at the moment of creation supposedly (I see this as just a story, not the actual truth, so that people can comprehend the situation. how on earth would they know what happened at the moment of creation?) Therefore, if this IS true, it could be that the Creator used itself to do the deed.

 

I, however, disagree, obviously, on the grounds of my own theory. Besides, if the Creator IS the prison, how on earth could Lanfear have effectively "beaten" the creator, when the creator has the power to seal away the DO? Obviously, you could say that the Creator has no power left to withstand an assault from inside the pattern, as it is busy with the DO, but it just doesn't ring true for me.

 

The creator takes no part, a force of creation. Why would it use itself to seal away the DO, if it takes no part?

 

My theory is that as a creator only, it created the pattern with its own essence, for as the DO's essence is the TP, the creator's essence must be something similar, or opposite to the TP, which is a tool of destruction. So again, you hit a good point, saying the creator itself is "creation". The only thing wrong with that, is the DO is NOT merely a well of TP. TP is a part of the DO, not its whole. Thus, in the same way, this "Creator Power" would not be the whole of the creator, but a part of it.

 

Therefore, in taking all this into account, when the creator, created, going back to the egg analogy, it metaphorically laid the "egg" which is his creation, including the yolk, which is the pattern, and the shell, which is its protective barrier. Then, after the "egg" was laid, the Creator continues on to lay more eggs, and leaves the egg to grow or die by itself, thus the whole I will not take part. Cue: DO the weasel who likes to eat eggs, start the whole cycle of the Wheel of Time.

 

(Other point of the story, Global Warming = DO. We are doomed.)

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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