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Why You Hatin' on Me? (asks Egwene, Nynaeve, Faile, etc)


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Then there is the Mary Sue aspect where everything just happens to fall into place for her when she needs it to. She doesn't have the same personal journey as the rest of the protagonists. She just travels one place, succeeds, then move on and repeat.

 

Forgot to comment on this part earlier. No personnel journey? Do people forget what happened to her at the hands of the Seanchan? She was close to having her very identity destroyed and taken away. She has faced as many hardships as anyone aside from possibly Rand throughout the course of the story.

 

Also important to note she has actually trained for her skills. They were not passed down from past lives at opportune moments or given to her by magic wishes. Not too say there isn't Mary Sue aspects to her character but I often wonder if people like lostcause are reading the same story with how off base their comments are.

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Egwene is wonderful as an underdog (in TGS). Egwene is repulsive when she has power (in ToM). Not to mention she is Aes Sedai by Tower Law alone. I'd have more respect for her if she went through the test for the shawl like every other real Aes Sedai.

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Then there is the Mary Sue aspect where everything just happens to fall into place for her when she needs it to. She doesn't have the same personal journey as the rest of the protagonists. She just travels one place, succeeds, then move on and repeat.

 

Forgot to comment on this part earlier. No personnel journey? Do people forget what happened to her at the hands of the Seanchan? She was close to having her very self destroyed and taken away. She has faced as many hardships as anyone aside from possibly Rand throughout the course of the story.

 

Also important to note she has actually trained for her skills. They were not passed down from past lives at opportune moments or given to her by magic wishes. Not too say there isn't Mary Sue aspects to her character but I often wonder if people like lostcause are reading the same story with how off base their comments are.

 

Totally agree. Egwene's development is almost as detailed as Rand's. And as I said above; she is playing a "reborn, revisionist" role for the WT; which is necessary to prepare it for the times ahead.

 

Egwene is wonderful as an underdog (in TGS). Egwene is repulsive when she has power (in ToM). Not to mention she is Aes Sedai by Tower Law alone. I'd have more respect for her if she went through the test for the shawl like every other real Aes Sedai.

 

Hardly her fault that both factions of the tower raised her Amyrlin before testing for the shawl. She took the oath rod voluntarily and out of necessity to bash the BA.

 

As to underdog and then powerful, take a look at Rand and what became of him. His actions are way far more loathsome during the darkest recesses of his "lost and blind" experience. At least her actions didn't lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and to the destruction Rand's experience left behind. He isn't to blame for it; but neither is Egwene to blame for hers.

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Also important to note she has actually trained for her skills. They were not passed down from past lives at opportune moments or given to her by magic wishes. Not too say there isn't Mary Sue aspects to her character but I often wonder if people like lostcause are reading the same story with how off base their comments are.

 

The only skills Egwene really had to work for are her Dreamwalking skills and her use of the One Power. Both of which she was extremely strong in to begin with. Rand had Asmodean to teach him and spends most of the first four books with no idea what he's doing, and Mat's wishes very nearly cost him his life.

 

Everything other than Dreamwalking and using Saidar simply falls into Egwene's lap, like suddenly being able to outwit women with centuries more political experience than her. When the time came for her to debate with Elaida I was irritated at how easily Egwene won. It was supposed to be a climactic moment, a confrontation that had been building up for books and books, but when the moment came Egwene effortlessly steamrolls through. Similarly, the battle with Messana ends with her having a Deus Ex Machina epiphany and shrugging off all the torment she recieved at the hands of the Seanchan in order to throw off the A'dam.

 

And isn't that last sentence a little patronising? People can interpret the text in different ways. I think Egwene is a terrible person in general but lots of people here would disagree.

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I don't think it's possible to draw any firm conclusions on ToM Egwene: she's just written too unevenly even in the 2nd revision (MMPB). Lots wrong with tGS in general, but only read the first print, maybe that's gotten better though I doubt Egwene Rahl would change much :)

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The only skills Egwene really had to work for are her Dreamwalking skills and her use of the One Power. Both of which she was extremely strong in to begin with. Rand had Asmodean to teach him and spends most of the first four books with no idea what he's doing, and Mat's wishes very nearly cost him his life.

 

Please consider that Asmodean started teaching Rand about the use of his power well after Rand shook earth and heaven with some of the stuff he did (without learning). So, Egwene actually learned; whereas Rand simply had it come to him from LTT.

 

As to Egwene being inherently strong in the power and in dreamwalking, that is how the system works. One learns/trains in strengths not weaknesses. She didn't miraculously discover healing when Gawyn was bleeding to death after defeating the 3 Blood Knives! She learned Earth and Fire from the Seanchan. She had a talent for metals and ore.

 

But even if we are to compare Rand with Egwene, how long did Asmodean teach Rand? and how long did Egwene spend training in the power? And how many teachers taught her (Seanchan, Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Suian, and indirectly Windfinders)?

 

Everything other than Dreamwalking and using Saidar simply falls into Egwene's lap, like suddenly being able to outwit women with centuries more political experience than her. When the time came for her to debate with Elaida I was irritated at how easily Egwene won. It was supposed to be a climactic moment, a confrontation that had been building up for books and books, but when the moment came Egwene effortlessly steamrolls through. Similarly, the battle with Messana ends with her having a Deus Ex Machina epiphany and shrugging off all the torment she recieved at the hands of the Seanchan in order to throw off the A'dam.

 

Other than Saidar and Dreamwalking, how did things fall into her lap with the Seanchan, Whitecloaks, Liandrin and co., capture by Elaida, and raid on the WT?

 

The system of Aes Sedai has the ones strong in the power higher up than the weaker ones regardless of age. And despite Nynaeve's reservations, this system implies that being stronger in the power gives a person more charisma. Wouldn't that explain how Egwene convinces others. And another point is that we do not have the details of Suian's tutoring. That is skimmed over in the narrative; but having the last "legit" Amyrlin (for 10 years) as a tutor is bound to rub off on Egwene.

 

In the end, Egwene spent more time training and learning than any other character I can recall. She even went to the Waste to learn dreamwalking when she could have stayed in the WT. She wasn't afraid and her drive for learning is unparalleled in any of the other heroes.

 

Egwene's second attendance of Elaida is not so surprising. On the one hand, you have a bully with no vision (or a narrow one at best) who was sitting unaware in her power house not paying attention to the "maid." The only two instances before where an Aes Sedai disobeyed ended with one "demoted" to accepted and the other "Silviana" in prison. So, Elaida isn't worth squat when in comes to dialogue and debates. On the other hand, you have Egwene who's been trained by Wise Ones and who saw more of the world in 3 years than Elaida has ever seen. Aside from being an adviser to a queen in a stable monarchy, what does Elaida know of the world: nothing!

 

As to outwitting people with more political experience, we can hardly say it came suddenly. But let us take this as an option. Rand said that Moiraine taught him well in politics before Lanfear. Wouldn't Egwene have been around in some part to listen and learn. Wouldn't Moiraine have taught her more when the two were together. And wouldn't Wise Ones teach her how to handle clan chiefs. No where does it say that Egwene's training with the Wise Ones was limited to dreamwalking.

 

Things fell into Egwene's lap; but like other characters. And she had to work harder than the rest to learn how to fit in the role she was pushed in.

 

Lol ... I guess it is no secret that I love Egwene. But that doesn't stop me from reading a reasonable argument against her. Egwene isn't the creator in flesh. She's a human being who makes mistakes. But blaming her for faults that are not hers is something different.

Edited by Theodril
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I totally agree with paragraphs 1 and 2. But I think paragraph 2 needs to take into account the time she's spent learning. It seems that Egwene has been novice and apprentice more than any other character. And even after being raised as Amyrlin, she was still being tutored by Suian. Of all the main characters, she has spent the most time trying to learn her way into her role.

Elayne certainly has a lot more years of training for her current job than Egwene.

 

But it's true that we see Egwene work on developing her skills more than any other main character in the books. That's one of the things I like about her, she didn't get an instant gift of military knowledge like Mat which allow him to spend most of his time drinking and flirting, and still be a great general.

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As to underdog and then powerful, take a look at Rand and what became of him. His actions are way far more loathsome during the darkest recesses of his "lost and blind" experience. At least her actions didn't lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths and to the destruction Rand's experience left behind. He isn't to blame for it; but neither is Egwene to blame for hers.

 

They're really not comparable in the first place. Rand has to deal with the entire world, his burden is heavier by far, and with that comes enormous pressure, not to mention all the other crap that get's thrown at him. Egwene has her share of trouble and responsibility as well of course, but at least she deals with "just" the WT. So it's not really fair to compare them.

 

Her love and shoulders (as he stated later on) would have been much more helpful; but Rand viewed Egwene as Aes Sedai. He distrusted her and didn't want her help!

 

That's probably because she was acting like an Aes Sedai. Rand recognised how much he had changed and could tell Egwene had as well. Egwene refused to tell him where Salidar was, and clearly took the WT's side on the matter.

 

One of the failures Rand had was his animosity to Aes Sedai, who just happened to save his life and that of his father and village. For that alone, he should have been indebted to Moiraine; and should not have been openly rude to her. Letting her bring his food to him was vile!

 

Moiraine saved him, his father, and his village. The rest of the Aes Sedai didn't do a thing. And apart from Verin, they all earned his animosity. Of course after LoC, he lumped all Aes Sedai together and refused to trust any of them. And considering what he went through, and the fact that he was bonded against his will, combined with the fact that all Aes Sedai he's come across believe that he must be controled and manipulated, it's difficult to argue agains his refusal to trust them. One of Min's best moments was when she called out Cadsuane and Nyneave on them thinking that they could make Rand do what they wanted. Rand's two closest advisors were trying to control him. Even if they had good intentions, and Nyneave in particular was thinking only of what was best for Rand, it doesn't make you want to trust them.

 

As for Moiraine, she certainly deserves recognition for what she did in the first book, but the way she played with him in the second, and the fact that she later tried to control him, just like all other Aes Sedai, made it impossible for him to truly trust her. It's said straigth out at the beginning of tFoH that Rand can't trust her because she tries to manipulate him. So she gives an oath to not manipulate him, and then Rand trusts her (and also apologises for any rudeness inspite of the fact that he believes he was quite justifed when was being rude to her). Also when did he let bring food to him?

 

What sufficient learning did Rand get to become the dragon? Mat got his "son of battles" from an accidental wish in a ter'angreal. And Perrin blundered his way into accepting leadership (which is like 10 steps behind Egwene and Rand, who both accepted responsibility from the start).

 

The thing is they all have taveren to justify their successes which should never have been. It can occasionally feel like Egwene is one as well, even though we know she is not. That is what I might be grating to some readers.

Edited by Master Ablar
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The thing is they all have taveren to justify their successes which should never have been. It can occasionally feel like Egwene is one as well, even though we know she is not. That is what I might be grating to some readers.

 

Egwene doesn't need to be ta'veren to reap the benefits of ta'veren. Consider what Loial has said about the web of destiny ta'veren weave, and that Egwene (and Nynaeve) are directly caught in the center of that Web, directly influenced not just by one but all three of the living ta'veren, but Egwene with prolonged exposure to Rand's web that not even his three girlfriends enjoy.

 

It warps chance, gives them what they need, and what Egwene and Nynaeve needed most was given to them. First by Moiraine, the Wise Ones, Siuane, et all. Unconventional guidance, and the ability to see outside the rigid forms of the Tower. In Nynaeve, that manifests in terms of outside-the-box behavior that could almost be called defiance, for Egwene, that manifests in the form of recognizing the value of things for what they are, while seeking to make them something better and an adaptability that allows her to accomplish those changes.

 

.And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes.And sometimes the Wheel bends a life-thread, or several threads, in such a way that all the surrounding threads are forced to swirl around it, and those force other threads, and those still others, and on and on. That first bending to make the Web, that is ta'veren, and there is nothing you can do to change it, not until the Pattern itself changes ~ Loial
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Everything other than Dreamwalking and using Saidar simply falls into Egwene's lap, like suddenly being able to outwit women with centuries more political experience than her. When the time came for her to debate with Elaida I was irritated at how easily Egwene won.

 

Funny because I thought she spent all those books working feverishly with Siuan, studying the WT history and working out how to politically be the best. She trained with her for many more books than Rand did with Asmodean so it somewhat invalidates your point.

 

Similarly, the battle with Messana ends with her having a Deus Ex Machina epiphany and shrugging off all the torment she recieved at the hands of the Seanchan in order to throw off the A'dam.

 

Once again we have an entire book of build up showing how important the WT is for her and what it means as an institution in her mind. Strength of will in Tar is something that has been talked about since we were introduced to the place. That can hardly be called a Deus.

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They're really not comparable in the first place. Rand has to deal with the entire world, his burden is heavier by far, and with that comes enormous pressure, not to mention all the other crap that get's thrown at him. Egwene has her share of trouble and responsibility as well of course, but at least she deals with "just" the WT. So it's not really fair to compare them.

 

I see the important difference between the scope of responsibility in the two cases. However, studying Egwene's actions and reactions in her scope of responsibility compared to Rand's actions in his shows that he used power and force more openly and freely than her. Unguided power corrupted Rand, made him arrogant and insufferable, had him consider "extermination" options, and obscured the love and compassion necessary even in dealing with the ones he loved and respected. In Egwene I saw more resolve, determination, stubbornness, and even helplessness; but not arrogance (she was too insecure in her power position to show that). And she certainly wasn't all-military in dealing with the unification of the WT (which is different from fighting Shaido and Seanchan, of course). Even when she decided to attack the tower, the books had her wait till the last possible moment to order the attack.

 

That's probably because she was acting like an Aes Sedai. Rand recognised how much he had changed and could tell Egwene had as well. Egwene refused to tell him where Salidar was, and clearly took the WT's side on the matter.

 

I'm about to finish rereading TEotW, the Rand - Egwene relationship was still love and caring for each other. There are examples in the Ways to Fal Dara, in the camp in the blight, when meeting the Green Man, and in the fight against Aginor and Balthamel, it was clear that both cared for each other. But Min's viewing in Rand's mind made him wary and not too forthcoming. It is funny how he let that get into his head at the time. A one time meeting with a strange woman who can foretell and he starts having doubts about the woman he loved. This whole paragraph is just to show that Rand and Egwene went further back than Aes Sedai and Dragon Reborn.

 

But back to the discussion. Egwene was acting like an Aes Sedai; but Rand was acting like the "Bloody Lord Dragon Flaming Reborn," (as Mat would put it). He had taken the path of stubbornness and hardness that made him almost distrust everyone or at least view their motives questioningly. He cannot be vilified for it since that was part of his self-learning experience. But he knew Egwene better than that. He forgot Egwene the woman, friend, and first love. I don't recall any serious attempt by him to reconnect with what they had going in the past (not the romance, but the caring, compassion, and trust).

 

In brief, Egwene is to blame as much as Rand for this one; but I cannot lay a greater share of it on her.

 

Moiraine saved him, his father, and his village. The rest of the Aes Sedai didn't do a thing. And apart from Verin, they all earned his animosity. Of course after LoC, he lumped all Aes Sedai together and refused to trust any of them. And considering what he went through, and the fact that he was bonded against his will, combined with the fact that all Aes Sedai he's come across believe that he must be controled and manipulated, it's difficult to argue agains his refusal to trust them. One of Min's best moments was when she called out Cadsuane and Nyneave on them thinking that they could make Rand do what they wanted. Rand's two closest advisors were trying to control him. Even if they had good intentions, and Nyneave in particular was thinking only of what was best for Rand, it doesn't make you want to trust them.

 

As for Moiraine, she certainly deserves recognition for what she did in the first book, but the way she played with him in the second, and the fact that she later tried to control him, just like all other Aes Sedai, made it impossible for him to truly trust her. It's said straigth out at the beginning of tFoH that Rand can't trust her because she tries to manipulate him. So she gives an oath to not manipulate him, and then Rand trusts her (and also apologises for any rudeness inspite of the fact that he believes he was quite justifed when was being rude to her). Also when did he let bring food to him?

 

Rand's distrust of Aes Sedai was the way he was brought up and directed during his first stages of TEotW. The theme of never trust an Aes Sedai, their manipulation, play with words, and prices they require is a well-established theme from the start. (No blame here as this is how Rand's society brought him up).

 

But he saw Moiraine do what she did for him and his village. Yet his distrust did not decrease. No one would expect it to evaporate. Yet he didn't trust her with a monumental experience of facing the DO in his dreams where pain in the dream was real in the waking world.

 

As to Moiraine attempting to manipulate Rand early on, she can be blamed for it. But Rand was so ignorant about himself and the fight against the DO that he needed guidance. He was happily tagging along behind Moiraine and basically following her orders and advice. Up till then, Moiraine had dedicated all her life to the cause and was more knowledgeable than Rand on the matter. She had much to offer.

 

The situation early on was "green-behind-the-ears" Rand with the Foresaken after him. He relied on his luck 90% of the time to get out of sticky situations and couldn't wield the power. The fate of the world hung on his safety; and the DO succeeding would spell disaster to all. Moiraine was Aes Sedai with more knowledge; and the natural reaction is for her to take command of the situation. She tried to handle the situation; but obviously failed to do it right.

 

You say Rand said that he cannot trust Moiraine because she tries to manipulate him. That could be true in some instances; but Rand at that stage thought everyone was trying to manipulate him. Moiraine needed to learn much on how to deal with the Dragon Reborn as no WT training or experience could have prepared her for it. That is why she went through the ter'angreal in Tear and to Rhuidean.

 

To stop blathering, I'll sum up by saying that a leader should tell the difference between advice and manipulation, friends and enemies. And a leader should know that he needs others more than they need him. A People can find a different leader; but a leader cannot replace the People!

 

As to Moiraine bringing food to Rand, I clearly remember that she did so during their journey from the Waste to Cairhien. I cannot cite the exact text though.

Edited by Theodril
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I see the important difference between the scope of responsibility in the two cases. However, studying Egwene's actions and reactions in her scope of responsibility compared to Rand's actions in his shows that he used power and force more openly and freely than her. Unguided power corrupted Rand, made him arrogant and insufferable, had him consider "extermination" options, and obscured the love and compassion necessary even in dealing with the ones he loved and respected. In Egwene I saw more resolve, determination, stubbornness, and even helplessness; but not arrogance (she was too insecure in her power position to show that). And she certainly wasn't all-military in dealing with the unification of the WT (which is different from fighting Shaido and Seanchan, of course). Even when she decided to attack the tower, the books had her wait till the last possible moment to order the attack.

 

The Shaido and Seanchan initiated the hostilities, not Rand. Rand has not actually attacked any nation throughout the books (Andor was led by Rahvin).

 

Egwene was never in a position to use power and force. Her position has never been secure like Rand's was, nor has she ever had the ressourses he does. As for Rand getting darker and darker, it's perfectly understandable that it happened. Everything that he goes through more than explains how it happened, even if it does not excuse him. I doubt anyone, including Egwene, would have fared any better than he did. Sorry for repeating it, but I just don't think you can compare the two, even accounting for the difference in the scope of their roles and what those roles entailed. To me it's like claiming your team winning the city tournament makes them better than the team that lost the national tournamen. You simply cannot compare.

 

I'm about to finish rereading TEotW, the Rand - Egwene relationship was still love and caring for each other. There are examples in the Ways to Fal Dara, in the camp in the blight, when meeting the Green Man, and in the fight against Aginor and Balthamel, it was clear that both cared for each other. But Min's viewing in Rand's mind made him wary and not too forthcoming. It is funny how he let that get into his head at the time. A one time meeting with a strange woman who can foretell and he starts having doubts about the woman he loved. This whole paragraph is just to show that Rand and Egwene went further back than Aes Sedai and Dragon Reborn.

 

No doubt they did, but they both changed and evolved. Their roles grew and in the end came situation where they might be opposed. At that point they had to chose where their loyalties lay. Egwene's as Aes Sedai, or at least Accepted, were with the WT, and Rand's were with... well, himself, logically.

 

But back to the discussion. Egwene was acting like an Aes Sedai; but Rand was acting like the "Bloody Lord Dragon Flaming Reborn," (as Mat would put it). He had taken the path of stubbornness and hardness that made him almost distrust everyone or at least view their motives questioningly. He cannot be vilified for it since that was part of his self-learning experience. But he knew Egwene better than that. He forgot Egwene the woman, friend, and first love. I don't recall any serious attempt by him to reconnect with what they had going in the past (not the romance, but the caring, compassion, and trust).

 

In brief, Egwene is to blame as much as Rand for this one; but I cannot lay a greater share of it on her.

 

His distrust of everyone, or at least those who spends a lot of time with, is rather justified, when you consider that the Nobles of Tear and of Cairhien, the Aes Sedai, including Moiraine, and the Wise Ones, all did their best to control and manipulate him. The only ones he truly trusts completely for some time are probably Mat and Perrin, although people like Lan, Thom, Bashere and perhaps the Aiel Clan Chiefs might eventually be trusted as well. Overall though there are a lot of people that he knows he can't trust to not try to manipulate him. Unfortunately Egwene falls into this category, not only as Aes Sedai, but perhaps also as an apprentice to the Wise Ones. And it's precisely because he remembers what she's like (mainly that she tries very hard to do what she is about according to Rand, and what she is about is being Aes Sedai), and because she always takes Moiraine's side, that he probably doesn't really feel he can trust her either. To be honest though I can't remember him being convinced that he couldn't trust her either. He was hesitant when it came to her, but that's pretty normal. I don't see that either is to blame. Egwene had to choose a side, and she chose Moiraine and the WT. Nyneave would probably follow Rand. Both choices are understandable.

 

As for the reconnecting with Egwene and all that, well unfortunatly Rand happens to be the Dragon Reborn. And that means he has other things to worry about than his relationship with Egwene. He has the entire world to deal with and if that means he no longer has time for his friends, well tough luck, that why it sucks to be him.

 

Rand's distrust of Aes Sedai was the way he was brought up and directed during his first stages of TEotW. The theme of never trust an Aes Sedai, their manipulation, play with words, and prices they require is a well-established theme from the start. (No blame here as this is how Rand's society brought him up).

 

But he saw Moiraine do what she did for him and his village. Yet his distrust did not decrease. No one would expect it to evaporate. Yet he didn't trust her with a monumental experience of facing the DO in his dreams where pain in the dream was real in the waking world.

 

As to Moiraine attempting to manipulate Rand early on, she can be blamed for it. But Rand was so ignorant about himself and the fight against the DO that he needed guidance. He was happily tagging along behind Moiraine and basically following her orders and advice. Up till then, Moiraine had dedicated all her life to the cause and was more knowledgeable than Rand on the matter. She had much to offer.

 

The situation early on was "green-behind-the-ears" Rand with the Foresaken after him. He relied on his luck 90% of the time to get out of sticky situations and couldn't wield the power. The fate of the world hung on his safety; and the DO succeeding would spell disaster to all. Moiraine was Aes Sedai with more knowledge; and the natural reaction is for her to take command of the situation. She tried to handle the situation; but obviously failed to do it right.

 

You say Rand said that he cannot trust Moiraine because she tries to manipulate him. That could be true in some instances; but Rand at that stage thought everyone was trying to manipulate him. Moiraine needed to learn much on how to deal with the Dragon Reborn as no WT training or experience could have prepared her for it. That is why she went through the ter'angreal in Tear and to Rhuidean.

 

To stop blathering, I'll sum up by saying that a leader should tell the difference between advice and manipulation, friends and enemies. And a leader should know that he needs others more than they need him. A People can find a different leader; but a leader cannot replace the People!

 

As to Moiraine bringing food to Rand, I clearly remember that she did so during their journey from the Waste to Cairhien. I cannot cite the exact text though.

 

There is a difference between guidance an manipulation. What Moiraine was doing was the second. Rand refused to be manipulated by anyone. And unfortunately a lot of people were trying to manipulate him. Mat and Perrin did not trust Moiraine early on either, so it's hardly limited to Rand. With the way Moiraine toyed with Rand at the beginning of tGH, it's no surprised he no longer trusted her. Moiraine herself says she had to remember how to channel saidar in order to deal with Rand. Controlling him was not an option. He won't allow. So she swears not to do so. From there things work out fine. Rand lack of trust definitely grew throughout the books, but it was justified with Moiraine. She was trying to manipulate him.

 

As for the bit about the Leader and the People, that does not apply to Rand. The people do need him just as much as he needs them. He is the savior, and according to Moiraine herself, once they accept that, they have no choice but to follow him.

 

EDIT: I found the reference about Moiraine bringing food to Rand. In chapter 30 of the Fires of Heaven, it says that Moiraine had taken to bringing Rand his meals and eating with him, so that she could teach him as much as possible. Obviously this is because Moiraine knows that she has little time left. Moiraine clearly did this of her own free will, and not on an order from Rand. If anything he appears to be disturbed by it.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Egwene was never in a position to use power and force. Her position has never been secure like Rand's was, nor has she ever had the ressourses he does. As for Rand getting darker and darker, it's perfectly understandable that it happened. Everything that he goes through more than explains how it happened, even if it does not excuse him. I doubt anyone, including Egwene, would have fared any better than he did. Sorry for repeating it, but I just don't think you can compare the two, even accounting for the difference in the scope of their roles and what those roles entailed. To me it's like claiming your team winning the city tournament makes them better than the team that lost the national tournamen. You simply cannot compare.

 

The two experiences are different. I cannot say that Rand should have been acting like Egwene when facing his problems. I just wish he didn't have to lose so much compassion, love, and trust before sorting things out. Due to significantly less pressure on her (comparatively), Egwene didn't lose that. In fact, she is building trust with people who were her enemies.

 

But you're right, we cannot compare little league world series with the actual world series.

 

No doubt they did, but they both changed and evolved. Their roles grew and in the end came situation where they might be opposed. At that point they had to chose where their loyalties lay. Egwene's as Aes Sedai, or at least Accepted, were with the WT, and Rand's were with... well, himself, logically.

 

Yeah, I know. It is just the weakness I have of wishing to see them back together.

 

His distrust of everyone, or at least those who spends a lot of time with, is rather justified, when you consider that the Nobles of Tear and of Cairhien, the Aes Sedai, including Moiraine, and the Wise Ones, all did their best to control and manipulate him. The only ones he truly trusts completely for some time are probably Mat and Perrin, although people like Lan, Thom, Bashere and perhaps the Aiel Clan Chiefs might eventually be trusted as well. Overall though there are a lot of people that he knows he can't trust to not try to manipulate him. Unfortunately Egwene falls into this category, not only as Aes Sedai, but perhaps also as an apprentice to the Wise Ones. And it's precisely because he remembers what she's like (mainly that she tries very hard to do what she is about according to Rand, and what she is about is being Aes Sedai), and because she always takes Moiraine's side, that he probably doesn't really feel he can trust her either. To be honest though I can't remember him being convinced that he couldn't trust her either. He was hesitant when it came to her, but that's pretty normal. I don't see that either is to blame. Egwene had to choose a side, and she chose Moiraine and the WT. Nyneave would probably follow Rand. Both choices are understandable.

 

As for the reconnecting with Egwene and all that, well unfortunatly Rand happens to be the Dragon Reborn. And that means he has other things to worry about than his relationship with Egwene. He has the entire world to deal with and if that means he no longer has time for his friends, well tough luck, that why it sucks to be him.

 

Trust and obedience (not loyalty since that means giving true advice and not just be "Yes" all the time) are two different things. As a leader, it is way too easy to trust people who are always obedient. For example, take Dobraine. His obedience to Rand had him going wherever Rand needed someone he can "trust". And Dobraine almost never said "no" to the "Lord Dragon." The problem with Rand, no blame as he was learning into his role, was that he preferred "obedient people" over trustworthy/loyal people who say and occasional no. But he wasn't totally lost on that as he made Cadsuane an adviser.

 

And after Dumai Wells, Rand wanted obedience more than trust. And his meeting with Egwene in the WT showed his regrets over some aspects of that.

 

One of the things I have against Egwene is how she had a knee-jerk reaction to Rand's plan to break the seals and then re-seal the bore. There was some justification as Rand admitted that the plan would allow the DO to extend his reach over the world for a short time (and that in itself is a nightmare). Rand needed to give Egwene the poison and antidote at the same time. But he just threw the poison out; which didn't help her see reason.

 

I think that Egwene should have talked to Rand in private about his plan before setting out on her opposition path. She should have had a little more trust in him. But they've been away from each other so long that she was almost ignorant. But they'll see eye to eye eventually, if not shortly.

 

 

On another note, I don't lean towards putting Moiraine, Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Nobles and Lords, etc... in the same group with Egwene, Nynaeve, Perrin, and Mat. They were his first companions, friends, love, roots, etc.... He knows them for who they are; and they know him for who he is.

 

There is a difference between guidance an manipulation. What Moiraine was doing was the second. Rand refused to be manipulated by anyone. And unfortunately a lot of people were trying to manipulate him. Mat and Perrin did not trust Moiraine early on either, so it's hardly limited to Rand. With the way Moiraine toyed with Rand at the beginning of tGH, it's no surprised he no longer trusted her. Moiraine herself says she had to remember how to channel saidar in order to deal with Rand. Controlling him was not an option. He won't allow. So she swears not to do so. From there things work out fine. Rand lack of trust definitely grew throughout the books, but it was justified with Moiraine. She was trying to manipulate him.

 

As for the bit about the Leader and the People, that does not apply to Rand. The people do need him just as much as he needs them. He is the savior, and according to Moiraine herself, once they accept that, they have no choice but to follow him.

 

EDIT: I found the reference about Moiraine bringing food to Rand. In chapter 30 of the Fires of Heaven, it says that Moiraine had taken to bringing Rand his meals and eating with him, so that she could teach him as much as possible. Obviously this is because Moiraine knows that she has little time left. Moiraine clearly did this of her own free will, and not on an order from Rand. If anything he appears to be disturbed by it.

 

Rand's "I am no one's puppet, no one's hound" attitude was part of him. It was visible even before any attempt was made to manipulate him. Two Rivers stubbornness. I loved how Egwene reacted when Rand tried to scare her away at the start of TGH. He tried to provoke her like he did with Mat and Perrin; but she tackled him and knocked some sense into him before trying to help him avoid meeting the Amyrlin Seat.

 

Rand represented a struggle between old methods (WT standard procedure) and the different and new experience of the Dragon Reborn. His destiny is to break old bonds and ways. Moiraine represented the old methods; and she had much to learn. She made mistakes.

 

I guess what I am trying to say that there are people a leader cannot and should not lose trust in as long as they didn't commit betrayal. Even if those people gave him a constant pain in the backside, he should not have shunned them and moved away from them. He should not have mistrusted them. He should have fought their attempted manipulation, if you will, and made it clear that he'll just do what he knows is right (he was stubborn enough for that). But losing trust is dangerous!

 

As to Moiraine bringing food to Rand, there are two things:

- Rand failed to see that Moiraine was acting like someone waiting for the hangman. He even took her sudden obedience suspiciously.

- Rand did not stop Moiraine from bringing him food. He should not have allowed her to humiliate herself so much in order to talk a few minutes with the Bloody Lord Dragon Flaming Reborn. I cannot see any excuse for him there, none, nada. Nothing but pure arrogance and distrust.

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I think that Egwene should have talked to Rand in private about his plan before setting out on her opposition path.

 

She tried to Rand refused...

 

ToM

"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."

 

"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."

 

"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."

 

"That is why I cam to you. To let you plan."

 

He seemed amused...

 

It has been made very obvious that Rand provoked her on purpose and wanted her opposition. We just haven't seen the why of it yet.

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Thanks for the enlightenment. So it seems that Rand loosened that piece of information on the world for a purpose. And it seems that Egwene's reaction was more level-headed that I initially thought.

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EDIT: I found the reference about Moiraine bringing food to Rand. In chapter 30 of the Fires of Heaven, it says that Moiraine had taken to bringing Rand his meals and eating with him, so that she could teach him as much as possible. Obviously this is because Moiraine knows that she has little time left. Moiraine clearly did this of her own free will, and not on an order from Rand. If anything he appears to be disturbed by it.

 

He was disturbed by the drastic change, he particularly mentions that he couldn't handle her open begging. That is why he let her serve him, he couldn't stand to see her debase herself so much. So it was not arrogance on Rand's part. But he also did come to trust Moiraine.

 

1) he let her read the letters from the WT instantly, no hesitation, even though one specifically asked him not to.

2) One of the main reasons he didn't trust any Aes Sedai (pre-box) was because Moiraine told him not to trust anyone who wears the shawl! He remembers again and again in his PoV how she had told him that, and he stuck to it.

 

He It's made abundantly obvious that from the point where she begs him to let her help him to when she falls through the doorway she very much redeems herself in Rand's eyes. That's why Moiraine is bolded and underlined on his list. Also there are various quotes of her telling Egwene that he needed to learn to run now that he could walk, she looks on him proudly, just before she dies she often says "You've grown much" or "you will do well." From the Begging on, she tries to stuff his head with knowledge, and rarely tries to get him to do anything. There was no Manipulation there, she was trying to help him as much as she could before the moment she knew she would "die".

 

So I guess you're both wrong this time, in my opinion. Bring on the quotes!

 

Moiraine had too many plans for him, too many ways of pulling strings he did not know she had tied to him.

 

then...

 

She was not the Egwene he

had grown up with; she had become part of the Tower since Moiraine sent her there. Moiraine again. Always Moiraine. Sometimes he wished he were rid of Moiraine. Only sometimes?

 

Only sometimes? Then the moment of truth..

 

"Please, Rand," Moiraine said, and the open pleading in her voice halted him in his tracks. He had never

heard anything like that from her before.

[...]

"I will not be with you forever," Moiraine said urgently. Her hands gripped her skirts so hard that they

trembled. "I might die in the next attack. I could fall from my horse and break my neck, or take a Darkfriend's

arrow through my heart, and death cannot be Healed. I have given my entire life to the search for you, to find

you and help you. You still do not know your own strength; you cannot know half of what you do. I apologize most

humbly for any offense I have given you." Those words-words he had never thought to hear from her came

out as if dragged, but they came; and she could not lie. "Let me help you as much as I can, while I can.

Please."

[...]

"Do you want an oath not to try manipulating you? I give it." Her

voice hardened to crystal. "I even swear to obey you like one of the Maidens-like one of the gai'shain, if you

require- but you must-" Taking a deep breath, she began again, more softly. "I ask you, humbly, to allow me to

help you."

 

And then afterwards...

"At least he talks with her, now," Egwene' said. "Before, he turned to acid if she came within ten feet of him. Nynaeve, his head swells bigger every day."

 

Moiraine leaned over to put a hand on her arm, a look of affection on her face. "We cannot hold his hand forever, Egwene. He has learned to walk. He is learning to run. We can only hope he learns before his enemies catch him. And, of course, continue to advise him. To guide him when we can."

Moir admits to Egwene that he's on his own and she can only make sure she's close to advise, "when [she] can". There's the line after this when Egwene asks why Moir does what he says, and she says "Because I remember how to control saidar", and Egwene understands it as "To control you must submit". I'm sure someone will want to feak out about that, but Aes Sedai guide the flows, and they're extremely respectful of the power. Just trying to nip that in the bud before it becomes another "bound in lace".

 

And then his opinion shifts...

Now she seemed quite small, for all her regal manner. A fool thing, that he should feel protective of her. "There is plenty of time ahead of us, Moiraine," he said gently. "I don't pretend to think I know as much of the world as you. I mean to keep you close from now on." He barely realized how great a change that was from when she was keeping him close.

 

Seeing value in her, no negative clarifications in his PoV anymore...

Well, it might not be tax, but he could use it as kings did taxes. Unfortunately, he had only the vaguest idea how that was. He would have to ask Moiraine; that was one thing she had missed in her lectures. Perhaps she thought it so obvious that he should know.

[...]

it was another thing to ask Moiraine

 

This says A LOT...

Rand would not regret it if Kadere managed to sneak off in the night. The Aiel guards had orders to let him go, so long as he did not -try to take Moiraine’s precious wagons. More obviously every day, their loads were a treasure to her, and Rand would not see her lose them.

 

Simply because they mean a lot to her personally? Clearly Rand has no care for any self-proclaimed law that they belong to the tower.

 

Then it all snowballs from there..

For himself, Rand thought that Moiraine would be proud of him, and so would Thom Merrilin.

[...]

With Moiraine’s help he had worked out what he must do here. Some he had known was right even without her suggestions. It would have been good to have her there to whisper in his ear if needed

[...]

“As well as can be expected,” Amys said. “He drives himself hard, and listens to no one. Except Moiraine.” Amys was not pleased.

[...]

Moiraine stands closer to Rand al’Thor than any except Aviendha, yet she refuses to ask him.

[...]

“A good thing you gave your oath,” he said. “The way you used to be, keeping everything back, I might have been ready to suspect you by now. A good thing you’re more open now.” She did not react.

 

then she dies...

Moiraine dead, Egwene injured, and Lan gone. A high price to pay for Lan fear. “Mourn, burn you!” he growled. “She deserved that much! Don’t you have any feelings left?” But mostly he felt numb. His body hurt, but under it was deadness.

 

Feels a little luke warm doesn't it? But then he's mad at Moir for not giving him the choice to sacrifice himself for her. Which I suppose he may have wanted to do for any woman, but at least we know he thought of her as "a woman" not some filty manipulative Aes Sedai he wanted out of his life.

 

“My choice, Moiraine,” he muttered. “It was my choice.”

 

And some post-death reminicing...

So much for the Forsaken fearing to use balefire. Who bad told him that? Moiraine. She surely had

deserved to live.

 

There had been one Aes Sedai he trusted, though not until shortly before her death, and Moiraine had left him a piece of advice about Aes Sedai, about every other woman who wore the shawl and the ring. "I'll never trust any Aes Sedai,"

 

Are you really there? Rand thought. If there's more than a voice and a few old memories, answer me! Are you there? Silence. He could use Moiraine's advice now, or somebody's.

 

Moiraine Damodred, another name that seared to the soul rather than merely burning.

 

Moiraine had died because he was not hard enough to do what had to be done. Her name always headed the list engraved on his brain, the women who had died because of him. Moiraine Damodred.

 

Well that's enough of that.

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Thank you for the clarification and quotes. Putting so many emotional scenes and lines together was too much to handle.

 

Moiraine, cousin to a King and raised in the Royal Palace in Cairhien as well as Aes Sedai of top notch quality, reduced to begging to help Rand. Even if it wasn't his fault, no one's pride should be crushed to such a degree.

 

If a person saves your life once, you're indebted to him/her for life. And if someone saves your life several times, you can never repay him/her. That person automatically gets a special status, especially from a leader.

 

I think that Rand realized how much he lost by losing Moiraine (temporarily). And I already know that tears will fill my eyes when I read their reunion.

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They're really not comparable in the first place. Rand has to deal with the entire world, his burden is heavier by far, and with that comes enormous pressure, not to mention all the other crap that get's thrown at him. Egwene has her share of trouble and responsibility as well of course, but at least she deals with "just" the WT. So it's not really fair to compare them.

 

I see the important difference between the scope of responsibility in the two cases. However, studying Egwene's actions and reactions in her scope of responsibility compared to Rand's actions in his shows that he used power and force more openly and freely than her. Unguided power corrupted Rand, made him arrogant and insufferable, had him consider "extermination" options, and obscured the love and compassion necessary even in dealing with the ones he loved and respected. In Egwene I saw more resolve, determination, stubbornness, and even helplessness; but not arrogance (she was too insecure in her power position to show that). And she certainly wasn't all-military in dealing with the unification of the WT (which is different from fighting Shaido and Seanchan, of course). Even when she decided to attack the tower, the books had her wait till the last possible moment to order the attack.

 

That's probably because she was acting like an Aes Sedai. Rand recognised how much he had changed and could tell Egwene had as well. Egwene refused to tell him where Salidar was, and clearly took the WT's side on the matter.

 

I'm about to finish rereading TEotW, the Rand - Egwene relationship was still love and caring for each other. There are examples in the Ways to Fal Dara, in the camp in the blight, when meeting the Green Man, and in the fight against Aginor and Balthamel, it was clear that both cared for each other. But Min's viewing in Rand's mind made him wary and not too forthcoming. It is funny how he let that get into his head at the time. A one time meeting with a strange woman who can foretell and he starts having doubts about the woman he loved. This whole paragraph is just to show that Rand and Egwene went further back than Aes Sedai and Dragon Reborn.

 

But back to the discussion. Egwene was acting like an Aes Sedai; but Rand was acting like the "Bloody Lord Dragon Flaming Reborn," (as Mat would put it). He had taken the path of stubbornness and hardness that made him almost distrust everyone or at least view their motives questioningly. He cannot be vilified for it since that was part of his self-learning experience. But he knew Egwene better than that. He forgot Egwene the woman, friend, and first love. I don't recall any serious attempt by him to reconnect with what they had going in the past (not the romance, but the caring, compassion, and trust).

 

In brief, Egwene is to blame as much as Rand for this one; but I cannot lay a greater share of it on her.

 

Moiraine saved him, his father, and his village. The rest of the Aes Sedai didn't do a thing. And apart from Verin, they all earned his animosity. Of course after LoC, he lumped all Aes Sedai together and refused to trust any of them. And considering what he went through, and the fact that he was bonded against his will, combined with the fact that all Aes Sedai he's come across believe that he must be controled and manipulated, it's difficult to argue agains his refusal to trust them. One of Min's best moments was when she called out Cadsuane and Nyneave on them thinking that they could make Rand do what they wanted. Rand's two closest advisors were trying to control him. Even if they had good intentions, and Nyneave in particular was thinking only of what was best for Rand, it doesn't make you want to trust them.

 

As for Moiraine, she certainly deserves recognition for what she did in the first book, but the way she played with him in the second, and the fact that she later tried to control him, just like all other Aes Sedai, made it impossible for him to truly trust her. It's said straigth out at the beginning of tFoH that Rand can't trust her because she tries to manipulate him. So she gives an oath to not manipulate him, and then Rand trusts her (and also apologises for any rudeness inspite of the fact that he believes he was quite justifed when was being rude to her). Also when did he let bring food to him?

 

Rand's distrust of Aes Sedai was the way he was brought up and directed during his first stages of TEotW. The theme of never trust an Aes Sedai, their manipulation, play with words, and prices they require is a well-established theme from the start. (No blame here as this is how Rand's society brought him up).

 

But he saw Moiraine do what she did for him and his village. Yet his distrust did not decrease. No one would expect it to evaporate. Yet he didn't trust her with a monumental experience of facing the DO in his dreams where pain in the dream was real in the waking world.

 

As to Moiraine attempting to manipulate Rand early on, she can be blamed for it. But Rand was so ignorant about himself and the fight against the DO that he needed guidance. He was happily tagging along behind Moiraine and basically following her orders and advice. Up till then, Moiraine had dedicated all her life to the cause and was more knowledgeable than Rand on the matter. She had much to offer.

her The situation early on was "green-behind-the-ears" Rand with the Foresaken after him. He relied on his luck 90% of the time to get out of sticky situations and couldn't wield the power. The fate of the world hung on his safety; and the DO succeeding would spell disaster to all. Moiraine was Aes Sedai with more knowledge; and the natural reaction is for her to take command of the situation. She tried to handle the situation; but obviously failed to do it right.

 

You say Rand said that he cannot trust Moiraine because she tries to manipulate him. That could be true in some instances; but Rand at that stage thought everyone was trying to manipulate him. Moiraine needed to learn much on how to deal with the Dragon Reborn as no WT training or experience could have prepared her for it. That is why she went through the ter'angreal in Tear and to Rhuidean.

 

To stop blathering, I'll sum up by saying that a leader should tell the difference between advice and manipulation, friends and enemies. And a leader should know that he needs others more than they need him. A People can find a different leader; but a leader cannot replace the People!

 

As to Moiraine bringing food to Rand, I clearly remember that she did so during their journey from the Waste to Cairhien. I cannot cite the exact text though.

 

 

I am sorry but seriously you are comparing Rand with Egwene. He is simply the most selfless man not only in this series but maybe in entire fantasy genre. I mean here is a guy that is not going to gain anything he is just a lamb for slaughter literally. People despise him despite the fact that he is going to die for them and you want to cpmpare his whole journey with Egwene! I mean she has character development. I do not quote from the series because it is too much bother but do not you remember that she out logics white. out heals yellows ts more courageous then greens better negotiator then greys and more knowledgeable then browns. still she is at the same level as Rand all he had todo is just save the world who want him to die and let them be and expect no thanks in return. He is supposed to unite them but with feather dusters when all they want to do is kill him. I mean i can go on forever but even making this comparison is disgusting to me. Only good thing about Egwene's character is that RJ and then BS have been trying to portray her as light incarnate for 13 books and they have managed to convince some of you. So, good luck to them and you. One of these days I am going to write a complete post on Egwene but that is niether here nor there.

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Only good thing about Egwene's character is that RJ and then BS have been trying to portray her as light incarnate for 13 books and they have managed to convince some of you. So, good luck to them and you. One of these days I am going to write a complete post on Egwene but that is niether here nor there.

 

Yes, it's HORRIBLE that the AUTHORS have convinced me of what's actually true through what they've written in their books... You're so smart to not be swayed by their cannon words and by sticking to your hyperbolic or completely false portrayals and baseless assumptions.

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I am sorry but seriously you are comparing Rand with Egwene.

 

I mean i can go on forever but even making this comparison is disgusting to me.

 

No need to apologize. I am making a comparison between Rand's leadership experience and Egwene's. But you're mistaking that for equating them and giving each a similar weight and importance as the other; and that was never the case. Egwene recognizes that Rand is the leader at the last battle and mankind's hope of salvation. And she knows that she is but one of many who have to help him achieve his mission. Even Rand knows that he needs their help!

 

He is simply the most selfless man not only in this series but maybe in entire fantasy genre. I mean here is a guy that is not going to gain anything he is just a lamb for slaughter literally. People despise him despite the fact that he is going to die for them and you want to cpmpare his whole journey with Egwene!

 

If you want to talk about "selflessness," then the most selfless man in the series already died for the cause. Pick and choose any of the thousands who have given the most precious thing, his/her life, for the cause; and each is currently more selfless than Rand. Granted that the Dragon knows that he might die and has embraced that concept recently; but the Aiel have embraced death a long, long time ago.

 

No one despises Rand. Seriously, where did that come from? As stated earlier, everyone knows who he is and what he is. And they want to help him. No one is closing his gates in his face and saying, "Lord Dragon, go to Shayol Ghul and save us" while they sit and do nothing.

 

I mean she has character development.

 

Thank you for recognizing that.

 

I do not quote from the series because it is too much bother but do not you remember that she out logics white. out heals yellows ts more courageous then greens better negotiator then greys and more knowledgeable then browns.

 

Egwene's healing is as good as mine! She couldn't heal Gawyn when he was bleeding after saving her life from the Seanchan assassins. She used bonding, taught to her be Elayne, to save his life.

 

She out-logics whites in an issue of simple common sense and in an issue that had all Aes Sedai acting as fools. For her to see the problem of the tower division and convince them does not make her more White than them. The same applied for the Greys. She convinced them of their folly in the tower's division; but she doesn't claim that she is now the best negotiator in the world.

 

She is more knowledgeable than Browns in matters that Suian taught her from the secret archives of the WT, that only the Amyrlin and a select few have access to. In the Amyrlin sphere of knowledge, she was more knowledgeable. But that doesn't make her know more than a Brown in everything.

 

As to more courageous that Greens, she is. Any single member of the first group of 5 who left the Two Rivers has more courage and was tested more roughly than any of the Greens. The Battle Ajah in the WT haven't had a battle to fight in centuries. The Two Rivers group rests between battles. And she was trained to fight by the Seanchan; and the Aiel influenced and taught her. That didn't stop her from making a silly mistake trying to turn the harbor chain to heartstone; but she had heart: Heart of an Aiel.

 

still she is at the same level as Rand all he had todo is just save the world who want him to die and let them be and expect no thanks in return. He is supposed to unite them but with feather dusters when all they want to do is kill him.

 

Where did the ideas that the world wants Rand to die and that they want to kill him come from? The prophecies and Rand's answers in the ter'angreal doorframe say that "to live he must die." Up till now, the world wants him alive; and one can list a few examples of people actually dying to save the Lord Dragon's life!

 

Rand is destined to die, or so it seems; but the blame goes to the Creator or the Pattern!

 

Only good thing about Egwene's character is that RJ and then BS have been trying to portray her as light incarnate for 13 books and they have managed to convince some of you.

 

She starts out the weakest burden in the first book. She has to learn and wants to learn. She was pushed into the leadership role as a joke. She was imprisoned 4 times. She knows and recognizes her failures. And she knows that she has to help Rand and the Light during the last battle. She recognizes Rand for who he is and knows herself for who she is. Only the Creator is the Light Incarnate!

 

So, good luck to them and you. One of these days I am going to write a complete post on Egwene but that is niether here nor there.

 

That essay would be a great chance to discuss the issue based on the books, not assumptions.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I just got done reading through most of this.

 

I'm surprised and shocked that people were arguing that the super girls in book five could have taken on Rahvin. That's absurd to me.

 

I never liked Egwene, but came to respect her a bit more in the latter books. She's just very arrogant and always thinks she's right. An Aes Sedai trait for sure, but she seems to take it to the next level. One of my favourite parts in the series is when Rand just walks into the Tower and says, this is how it's going to be. Of course he's mad though. :rolleyes:

 

I used to hate Nyneave, but after a few rereads I think she is probably my favourite female character. I simply do not like Elayne.

 

Perrin is rather annoying as well. Bayle Domon always bugged me, basically any Illianer actually. And of course, Gawyn.

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