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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Death/Resurrection of Rand


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New(ish) to the forums. Longtime lurker, not a big poster.

 

A thought came to me while I was reading Gaidar's thread in AMoL forum.

 

 

First of all, i'm new, but don't let that get in the way...

 

I thought about the process of how will Rand get resurrected? we all hope, based on the finn question "How can i win and survive?" that Rand will be alive at the end of the last book. the two most used theories are either:

 

1. A body swap with Moridin. this does seem unlikely to me, as we know very little of the link and possible interactions. it's not been mentioned much, but neither Moridin nor Rand has proven to be able to actually do something with it. and a body swap isn't just something..

2. dies, becomes hero of the Horn(which we know he is from RJ), and gets torn out of TAR, maybe with a warder bond thrown in to keep him alive. maybe a theoretical possibility, but it's already been done.

 

I was thinking, neither of these theories seem likely. Both are technically possible, but they are far too complicated in my opinion. I just feel like it would be uber lame for BS to resurrect him as such. Rand is easily my favorite character but for the stories sake I feel like he needs to die. That being said, if he must be resurrected, I would prefer to see it done in a much simpler and already used fashion(by the mastermind himself).

 

I see it going something more like this:

 

The deep red contrast of his blood on the aberrant black stone reminded him of Taim. He was still out there, wreaking havoc with his Ash’aman. Rand had failed them. He had left them in the hands of a tyrant, a lunatic. They were his responsibility, along with the rest of the world. He had failed them all.

His blood was pooling rapidly and started to drip down the jagged steps of Shayol Ghul. Another prophecy fulfilled. Another prophecy wasted. He resisted the urge to recite the list of women who had died because of him. He thought he was beyond that. It was a selfish thought.

The man who called himself Death slowly strode toward him, arms crossed behind his back. Black flecks raced across the man’s hungry eyes. An amused smile touched his lips. Rand had recognized his face with the dizziness that ensued, his soul, however, belonged to a different face in Rand’s mind. The man Death, the Forsaken Ishamael, Ba’alzamon.

Rand barely heard the man speak before darkness veiled him.

“I win again Lews Therin.”

 

***

 

Cyndane could not interfere, even if she had wanted to. Imprisoned by the mindtrap, she was left a bystander as Moridin used the True Power to lash out ruthlessly at an already defeated Lews Therin. Moridin’s plan had been orchestrated with a precision even she was forced to appreciate. Lews Therin had believed her claims that she was willing to return to the Light. They weren’t entirely untrue. She would do whatever was necessary to be free of the Cour’souvra. Just thinking about the thing sent a cold shiver down her spine. The fool had taken the bait and followed her to Shayol Ghul, Callandor in hand. Unfortunately, she was unable to be part of the circle of three. He had brought the child Wielder that had defeated Moghedien, and the clumsy incompetent woman who had tackled her through the doorway. It was her fault Cyndane was imprisoned. Well, she would see to that sooner or late. She hadn’t seen either woman since Lews Therin had erupted in a torrent of earth and fire, fending off Moridin.

She could see Moridin stand over the body of Lews Therin, hands clasped across his back as he so often held them recently. The was a blood curdling scream from behind him.

“Nooo!!”

Moridin whipped around, eyes aflame, searching for the source of the screams, his face masked. He was Death. The Wielder thrust countless weaves towards him and he swatted them away easily. Her attacks were as pesky flies, a minor annoyance that posed no real threat to him.

“It is done, girl! Submit yourself to the Great Lord on your own accord. It is much easier than the alternative. Either way, you will be mine.”

“Now!” she screamed.

Confusion flashed on Moridin’s face, replace instantly by sheer terror. A bar of brilliant white light hit him from behind and the man flickered and disappeared, his screams echoing in the darkness.

The woman Moraine rushed from behind where Moridin had been standing and flung herself to the ground next to the body of Lews Therin, the wielder a fraction of a second behind her. It was hard to be sure from her vantage point but Cyndane thought he was breathing. More importantly, she longer felt the restraints of the Cour’souvra. She was free.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Anyways, a simpler, more probably explanation would be to use balefire on his killer. Just like Mat and Avi were resurrected.

 

Food for thought.

 

Feel free to tear it apart.

 

Cheers

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Good read! :smile:

 

However, how does the "twice dawning day" fit into this scenario? Also, resurrecting or saving the good guys via balefire have been used at least a couple of times already. Is that really a worthy end of the series? I have always been hoping that RJ had a completely new idea for this. Something we haven't seen yet, and that will still feel absolutely possible and relevant. Maybe I am hoping too much. I am still thinking that the often used expression "three days dead" may be a hint to this. But hopefully not the "Birgitte solution". The more I think about it, the more worried I am that no ending can ever live up to my expectations. Guess I have to tune them down a bit.

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There is also Min's vision about Alivia helping Rand to die. Can't see that fit in there.

Nevertheless, kudos for a well written post!

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There is also Min's vision about Alivia helping Rand to die. Can't see that fit in there.

Nevertheless, kudos for a well written post!

 

Ah touche. I forgot about that. That's what I get for throwing it together at work haha.

 

Mostly though, I was wondering, what other options for his resurrection are out there? I'm sure it has been discussed in other threads. I just don't like the 2 options listed above. Really I don't like the option of resurrection for Rand. I think he should die to save the world and stay dead. It just makes it a better story for me.

 

Thanks for the responses :)

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There is also Min's vision about Alivia helping Rand to die. Can't see that fit in there.

Nevertheless, kudos for a well written post!

 

Ah touche. I forgot about that. That's what I get for throwing it together at work haha.

 

Mostly though, I was wondering, what other options for his resurrection are out there? I'm sure it has been discussed in other threads. I just don't like the 2 options listed above. Really I don't like the option of resurrection for Rand. I think he should die to save the world and stay dead. It just makes it a better story for me.

 

Thanks for the responses :)

 

I haven't thought too much about the how and what of a possible resurrection. But my tuppence worth is that the resurrection doesn't have to be "technically possible" or even logical. Resurrections tend not to be ...

 

In fiction, myth and religion they're usually the result of a deus ex machina, making technical or logical explanations redundant.

 

We also shouldn't forget that one resurrection prophecy has already been fulfilled. Mat was told he would die and live again, which (at least according to me) happened in Rhuidean. To me this shows that the death according to the prophecy doesn't have to be definitive, or rather that it can be symbolic.

Edited by olver's grin
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We also shouldn't forget that one resurrection prophecy has already been fulfilled. Mat was told he would die and live again, which (at least according to me) happened in Rhuidean. To me this shows that the death according to the prophecy doesn't have to be definitive, or rather that it can be symbolic.

 

Wouldn't the whole balefire bringing him back thing fit better for Mat?

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I haven't thought too much about the how and what of a possible resurrection. But my tuppence worth is that the resurrection doesn't have to be "technically possible" or even logical. Resurrections tend not to be ...

 

In fiction, myth and religion they're usually the result of a deus ex machina, making technical or logical explanations redundant.

 

This is why I think he should just die and stay dead.

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Wouldn't the whole balefire bringing him back thing fit better for Mat?

 

That's the fulfillment of the Aelfinn prophecy. He wasn't actually dead when he was hung from the tree in Rhuidean.

 

IIRC, Jordan has clarified this.

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Wouldn't the whole balefire bringing him back thing fit better for Mat?

 

That's the fulfillment of the Aelfinn prophecy. He wasn't actually dead when he was hung from the tree in Rhuidean.

 

IIRC, Jordan has clarified this.

 

Gah short memory! Forgot about the lightening and balefire incident in Caemlyn.

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Mostly though, I was wondering, what other options for his resurrection are out there? I'm sure it has been discussed in other threads. I just don't like the 2 options listed above. Really I don't like the option of resurrection for Rand. I think he should die to save the world and stay dead. It just makes it a better story for me.

 

Thanks for the responses :)

 

In a few places on various threads I've had these thoughts:

 

'Twice and twice shall he be marked,

Twice to live and twice to die.'

 

I've interpreted this as Rand being fated to live twice and die twice.

 

I further think he's 'died' once, in a sense, on Dragonmount, during VoG. There, the old Two Rivers Rand was merged with the LTT-voice, gaining full access to LTT's memories. Rand is now fully integrated. The TR-Rand no longer exists; he 'died', and was 'resurrected' as Rand Sedai.

 

There's a very pointed comment made by Nynaeve:

 

"Three days.. Three days he's been gone! The Last Battle looms, and the Dragon Reborn is missing!"

 

Very interesting, after all that talk about Healing someone three days dead.

 

So I reckon Rand is now on his second life.. and will die again, this time physically, in the course of TG, perhaps to end up in T'A'R, to be called forth with the HotH when Mat sounds the HoV.

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Just trowing this out there without too much thought behind it, but couldn't it just be that the LTT-part of Rand dies, leaving the innocent Two River Rand behind, alive and kicking?

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The more I think about it, the more I like a body swap with Moridin. It would be unique, unlike say using balefire, which we've already seen before. Plus it's been established that when Rand and Moridin created some link between each other when their balefire crossed streams in Shadar Logoth, so this scenario would actually have some foreshadowing.

 

Not to mention I would love to see Moridin trapped in Rand's body and taken down by his own forces at Shayol Ghul, the whole time screaming that that they've got the wrong man, with the Shadowspawn and dreadlords assuming that crazy old Rand al'Thor has finally lost his mind in the last hour.

Edited by Ambrosius
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I further think he's 'died' once, in a sense, on Dragonmount, during VoG. There, the old Two Rivers Rand was merged with the LTT-voice, gaining full access to LTT's memories. Rand is now fully integrated. The TR-Rand no longer exists; he 'died', and was 'resurrected' as Rand Sedai.

 

And at its center,

the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought

 

Wasn't VoG all about fullfilling that prophecy of the blind man standing on his grave and then seeing again? Would be kind of weird that he both died and was able to see again.

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I further think he's 'died' once, in a sense, on Dragonmount, during VoG. There, the old Two Rivers Rand was merged with the LTT-voice, gaining full access to LTT's memories. Rand is now fully integrated. The TR-Rand no longer exists; he 'died', and was 'resurrected' as Rand Sedai.

 

And at its center,

the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought

 

Wasn't VoG all about fullfilling that prophecy of the blind man standing on his grave and then seeing again? Would be kind of weird that he both died and was able to see again.

 

Not weird at all. Quite reasonable, I'd say. He'd 'died' as his old, blind self. Recall that he wasn't physically blind, just blind to what was really going on, what TG was all about.

 

(And he didn't weep at that point; he laughed. Weeping came later, when he met Tam.)

Edited by FarShainMael
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Ever since Birgitte was pulled out of T'aR, I've assumed that they would do the same with Rand. But it requires that the DO is defeated permanently.

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This whole series was Robert Jordan's attempt to distill all the world's mythologies to one set of events that has been told and retold endlessly, getting slightly changed with each retelling.

 

That's why Mat isn't a perfect match to Odin, nor Perrin to Thor, nor Rand to Tyr.

 

Inherent in all of this is the Christian idea of a Saviour who wrestles with the Devil for 3 days and then is resurrected, lives again, and ascends into heaven ( or if we want to stay Arthurian disappears on a boat into the mist and fog presumably to be safeguarded by the Lady of the Lake until the world needs him again. )

 

A final death for Rand would violate most of the precepts involved in the mythologies from which Jordan was drawing his characters and inspiration.

 

An ending that left us unsure of his status would fit the Arthurian myth the best.

Edited by Bob T Dwarf
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I further think he's 'died' once, in a sense, on Dragonmount, during VoG. There, the old Two Rivers Rand was merged with the LTT-voice, gaining full access to LTT's memories. Rand is now fully integrated. The TR-Rand no longer exists; he 'died', and was 'resurrected' as Rand Sedai.

 

And at its center,

the blind man shall stand

upon his own grave.

There he shall see again,

and weep for what has been wrought

 

Wasn't VoG all about fullfilling that prophecy of the blind man standing on his grave and then seeing again? Would be kind of weird that he both died and was able to see again.

 

Not weird at all. Quite reasonable, I'd say. He'd 'died' as his old, blind self. Recall that he wasn't physically blind, just blind to what was really going on, what TG was all about.

 

(And he didn't weep at that point; he laughed. Weeping came later, when he met Tam.)

 

there may be a much simpler explanation... VoG happens on top of dragonmount, witch is LTT's grave. It sounds pretty farfetched to me to call this dying... he just "sees again".

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I regard it as a sort of death because - as I said in my post #10, above - the Rand we have known since the outset, Two Rivers Rand, no longer exists. Rand Sedai is a different entity entirely. He has the memories of his previous life as LTT fully integrated. He's not the same person he was before. What else is that process but a form of death for TR-Rand, and a form of resurrection as Rand Sedai?

Edited by FarShainMael
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  • 1 month later...

I look at VoG as two deaths. Rands and LTT. As TRs Rand can no longer be because of the demis of the sniveling, sad angery LTT. "TWO BECOME ONE". Mins viewing. She also stated that one dies but she is unsure which. I'm just grabbing at straws here because there were two people involed in VoG but we tend to focus on Rand because he's central to the story.

 

Just my take.

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  • 11 months later...

First post here soooo bear with me.

 

But, I have never thought that the whole two become one thing is Rand and LTT because because they are both the same person fighting over the same body. However the Moridin and Rand are basically opposite side of the coin. Moridin/Ishamael tells LTT (in the EOTW prologue I believe - could be later) that just as the Dragon is always reborn so is he because is the "evil hero" if you will. Also I think Rand knows he has to sacrifice himself and LTT to close the bore. However I believe that the Aelfinn/Eelfinn told him that in order to survive he has to merge himself with Moridin using a combination of the TP and the OP. This is what frightens him so much about wanting to live after the LB because just like merging with LTT has completely changed him he knows merging with Moridin would and that scares him because he knows after he does it he wouldn't be in full control and would be uncertain of the outcome of the world by 100% trusting the Moridin part of himself. However this makes sense with the Karaetheon prophecies (which are 100% related to this Dragon Reborn Rand Al'Thor not the original Dragon or any more to come or have come) because the prophs say "Twice and twice shall he be marked,twice to live, and twice to die". The first part talking about the dragons and the herons the second part saying he has to live and die twice. Once when he was born on dragonmount and then dies in the Last Battle. Twice when Nynaeve is almost certainly going to resurrect him after 3 days (since she once stated she wanted to do this or would be a failure as a healer) and then his second death with his 3 wives. 

 

So in effect this could really truly be the end of the cycle of the dragon because Rand will basically sacrifice LTT and Moridin (good and evil) to survive the last battle and contain the Dark One forever. Or sacrificing them will just remake the prison of the Dark One. Which follows most mythological structures Jordan has followed by redeeming Ishamael/Moridin the Dark Ones greatest champion. 

 

So whatcha think?

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New(ish) to the forums. Longtime lurker, not a big poster.

 

A thought came to me while I was reading Gaidar's thread in AMoL forum.

 

 

First of all, i'm new, but don't let that get in the way...

 

I thought about the process of how will Rand get resurrected? we all hope, based on the finn question "How can i win and survive?" that Rand will be alive at the end of the last book. the two most used theories are either:

 

1. A body swap with Moridin. this does seem unlikely to me, as we know very little of the link and possible interactions. it's not been mentioned much, but neither Moridin nor Rand has proven to be able to actually do something with it. and a body swap isn't just something..

2. dies, becomes hero of the Horn(which we know he is from RJ), and gets torn out of TAR, maybe with a warder bond thrown in to keep him alive. maybe a theoretical possibility, but it's already been done.

I was thinking, neither of these theories seem likely. Both are technically possible, but they are far too complicated in my opinion. I just feel like it would be uber lame for BS to resurrect him as such. Rand is easily my favorite character but for the stories sake I feel like he needs to die. That being said, if he must be resurrected, I would prefer to see it done in a much simpler and already used fashion(by the mastermind himself).

 

I see it going something more like this:

 

The deep red contrast of his blood on the aberrant black stone reminded him of Taim. He was still out there, wreaking havoc with his Ash’aman. Rand had failed them. He had left them in the hands of a tyrant, a lunatic. They were his responsibility, along with the rest of the world. He had failed them all.

His blood was pooling rapidly and started to drip down the jagged steps of Shayol Ghul. Another prophecy fulfilled. Another prophecy wasted. He resisted the urge to recite the list of women who had died because of him. He thought he was beyond that. It was a selfish thought.

The man who called himself Death slowly strode toward him, arms crossed behind his back. Black flecks raced across the man’s hungry eyes. An amused smile touched his lips. Rand had recognized his face with the dizziness that ensued, his soul, however, belonged to a different face in Rand’s mind. The man Death, the Forsaken Ishamael, Ba’alzamon.

Rand barely heard the man speak before darkness veiled him.

“I win again Lews Therin.”

 

***

 

Cyndane could not interfere, even if she had wanted to. Imprisoned by the mindtrap, she was left a bystander as Moridin used the True Power to lash out ruthlessly at an already defeated Lews Therin. Moridin’s plan had been orchestrated with a precision even she was forced to appreciate. Lews Therin had believed her claims that she was willing to return to the Light. They weren’t entirely untrue. She would do whatever was necessary to be free of the Cour’souvra. Just thinking about the thing sent a cold shiver down her spine. The fool had taken the bait and followed her to Shayol Ghul, Callandor in hand. Unfortunately, she was unable to be part of the circle of three. He had brought the child Wielder that had defeated Moghedien, and the clumsy incompetent woman who had tackled her through the doorway. It was her fault Cyndane was imprisoned. Well, she would see to that sooner or late. She hadn’t seen either woman since Lews Therin had erupted in a torrent of earth and fire, fending off Moridin.

She could see Moridin stand over the body of Lews Therin, hands clasped across his back as he so often held them recently. The was a blood curdling scream from behind him.

“Nooo!!”

Moridin whipped around, eyes aflame, searching for the source of the screams, his face masked. He was Death. The Wielder thrust countless weaves towards him and he swatted them away easily. Her attacks were as pesky flies, a minor annoyance that posed no real threat to him.

“It is done, girl! Submit yourself to the Great Lord on your own accord. It is much easier than the alternative. Either way, you will be mine.”

“Now!” she screamed.

Confusion flashed on Moridin’s face, replace instantly by sheer terror. A bar of brilliant white light hit him from behind and the man flickered and disappeared, his screams echoing in the darkness.

The woman Moraine rushed from behind where Moridin had been standing and flung herself to the ground next to the body of Lews Therin, the wielder a fraction of a second behind her. It was hard to be sure from her vantage point but Cyndane thought he was breathing. More importantly, she longer felt the restraints of the Cour’souvra. She was free.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Anyways, a simpler, more probably explanation would be to use balefire on his killer. Just like Mat and Avi were resurrected.

 

Food for thought.

 

Feel free to tear it apart.

 

Cheers

That is theory no more.. he became a ghost at the end of the book...

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