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Demandred - What is he up too?


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The last on screen appearance of Demandred was an appearance with Grendal, Mesanna, and Moridin where Demandred stated that his rule is secure and he is gathering for war.

 

I am going to ignore the first part of this, and focus on the second.

 

First some background: Elayne has assured her rule of Camelyn, and at the Beginning of TOM, Mat was confused (by Norry) with all the other Mercenary bands. There are lots and lots of Mercenary Bands surrounding Camelyn. Later on, when the letter is presented to Elayne, there is mention that all of the Mercenary groups were allowed to be at closest 1 league away from the walls of Camelyn - An hour walk or so from Camelyn - not very far. We also learn that Jared Sarand (one of Elayne's enemies to the ascension) still is unaccounted for and at large.

 

Second background item to note: Durring the Trolloc wars, and the war of power, there were both armies of trollocs and armies of darkfriends.

 

Third Background item: Each Forsaken is given a small army of trollocs with which to increase Chaos (point of view from Grendal) - She uses hers to assault the Whitecloaks. The army of 30,000 trollocs to assault Camelyn, is much larger than what Grendal uses to attack the whitecloaks.

 

I propose that Demandred is behind all of the Mercenary bands congregating around Camelyn (he is after all gathering for war - yet this is still before Rand went good). This would make the devastation much more intense. If you have the trollocs assaulting from within, you will get people fleeing the city in droves to escape. As they leave, the armies of Mercenaries congregate on the outside and assault from outside the walls making the devastation and bloodshed much more intense.

 

Hence Demandred, the last great General for the Dark is orchestrating the destruction of Camelyn.

 

P.S. Please don't hi-jack this theory into another who/where is Demandred theory.

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Do we know how many mercenaries there are outside of the city? And are you suggesting that they're all Darkfriends?

It doesn't make sense to me for Demandred to have one army inside Caemyln and one outside, all of the mercenaries can't be DF's - he would need to uncover, train them into soldiers and then hope that none of them were discovered as being DF's. So the mercenaries are likely to fight against the Trollocs which would mean both of Demandred's forces probably almost wiping each other out - chaos yes, but his rule wouldn't be secure anymore and he would have no personal troops of any kind to fight TG with.

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Do we know how many mercenaries there are outside of the city? And are you suggesting that they're all Darkfriends?

It doesn't make sense to me for Demandred to have one army inside Caemyln and one outside, all of the mercenaries can't be DF's - he would need to uncover, train them into soldiers and then hope that none of them were discovered as being DF's. So the mercenaries are likely to fight against the Trollocs which would mean both of Demandred's forces probably almost wiping each other out - chaos yes, but his rule wouldn't be secure anymore and he would have no personal troops of any kind to fight TG with.

 

From TOM - An Unexpected Letter-

Elayne had begun by sending them (Mercenaries) away. Then she'd realized the foolishness in this. Every man would be needed at Tarmon Gai'don, and if Andor could provide an extra five or ten thousand soldiers to the conflict, she wanted to do so.

 

This would suggest somewhere between 5-10 thousand, plus whatever Sarand has in his army. Now I am not saying that they're all Darkfriends, their leaders might be, but imagine the conflict starting, you are asked to attack Camelyn, and have no idea why other than that you are being told too (soldier or mercenary), so you start without ever seeing the trollocs. It is still possible.

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Demandred behind all those mercenary groups? I would guess only some of them since Demandred would need to use Compulsion on a portion of the leaders.

 

 

Demandred being behind those forced conversions at the Black Tower to me seems more likely.

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I think these mercs arent mercs at all, but rather murandians posing as mercenaries, and with the revalation that the Band is now an andoran force and between the mercs and the wall I have the feeling that demandred is going to wipe out at least half the band (since the other half is in cairhein/FoM

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  • 1 month later...

So the destruction of Caemlyn being Demandred... interesting idea especially the idea the Jared Sarand (tho tbh I cannot remember the part,and RJ did say that he had nver been 'on screen') being him... there is a point in war of succession where (I believe it to be Dyelin) who thinks how could Arymilla Marne be the leadeing candidate for queen when a few months earlier she had been a 'nobody' this to me smacks of compulsion on the behalf of a foresaken who, trying to mount a 'legal' challenge to gain political influence inside Caemlyn without the suspicionthat Ravhin generated - Rand knew very early that it was he controlling Morgase - whereas this could be seen as a back door into ruling... But with Elayne's victory in the war of succession having scuppered these plans he is using his portion of trollocs to return the favour (remember during the war of power he fed two citys to the trolloc pots due to an imagined slight) which would fit his personality. But as for holding the mercenarys outside the walls,I am not too sure either, this would be an enourmous risk on the part of Demandred as mentioned, it would not take much for dark freinds to be revealled.

 

However apart from the rebel AS walking through Murandy, Very little has been saaid about this place, anarmy and war of consoldation has been fought and won and this couldalso be a ploy from someone who '...rules still and is gathering forces...' its a fine line when speculating!

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Demandred behind all those mercenary groups? I would guess only some of them since Demandred would need to use Compulsion on a portion of the leaders.

 

 

Demandred being behind those forced conversions at the Black Tower to me seems more likely.

 

Other than the fact we know that Taim =/= Demandred?

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I am suspicious of the mercenaries outside of Caemlyn as well. It's interesting to note that Elayne came very close to not being able to afford the mercs at all. It wasn't until alum was discovered on one of Elayne's estates that she suddenly had the funds needed to keep the mercs employed. This strikes me as a little too convenient. Not only was it discovered in Andor, where they've been dependent on importing the stuff from Ghealdon for some time, but it was discovered on Elayne's property, eliminating any potential arguments about who the resource rightfully belongs to. There weren't even any ta'veren around to account for such amazing luck. It's also worth noting that Elayne never sends a representative to confirm the discovery of alum.

 

Perhaps this is just plot convenience, but it seems to me someone wanted Elayne to have those mercs in her employ.

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I am suspicious of the mercenaries outside of Caemlyn as well. It's interesting to note that Elayne came very close to not being able to afford the mercs at all. It wasn't until alum was discovered on one of Elayne's estates that she suddenly had the funds needed to keep the mercs employed. This strikes me as a little too convenient. Not only was it discovered in Andor, where they've been dependent on importing the stuff from Ghealdon for some time, but it was discovered on Elayne's property, eliminating any potential arguments about who the resource rightfully belongs to. There weren't even any ta'veren around to account for such amazing luck. It's also worth noting that Elayne never sends a representative to confirm the discovery of alum.

 

Perhaps this is just plot convenience, but it seems to me someone wanted Elayne to have those mercs in her employ.

 

 

Nice catch! Never thought of that, but yeah, sounds to convenient!

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Perhaps, I am falling into RJ's trap, but...

 

Each Foresaken seemed to carve out their own little area of control/plotline without much overlap:

 

Rahvin - Camelyn

Semirhage - Seanchan/Tuon

Sammael - Illian

Be'lal - Tear

Graendal - Arad Doman (sp?)

Mesaana - White Tower

 

Moghedien - Black Ajah/Supergirls

Lanfear - Rand/Morainne

Ishamael/Moridin - Rand/Neablis

Aginor - first book sacrificial lamb/Rebel AS

Balthamel - first book sacrificial lamb/Black Tower

Asmodean - Aiel (via Couldain sp?) and Rand

 

Following that line of thought, Demandred wouldn't be tightly tied to one of the previously "used" locations or plotline. I don't have any suggestions, but his involvement in Camelyn wouldn't follow the pattern.

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Other than the fact we know that Taim =/= Demandred?
Never said that he was.

One of my guesses for Demandred's alias has been some unnamed Ashaman; my other guess has been some Madmen Land resident.

 

 

Pinzarn, you got Aginor and Balthamel switched. Aginor resurrected was Osangar; Balthamel resurrected was Arangar.

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I still think that the 'rule' Demandred 'secured' was rule over the Shadowspawn following the subversion of 100,000 by the fake Sammael. Consider that he states that his armies just now 'gather for war', and the only newly gathered force at that point in the books is the Shadowspawn preceeding the invasion of the Blight which came shortly after.

 

From there, for his rule to now be secure, it had to previously not be secure, which the Shadowspawn weren't as shown by the Fake Sammael. And Moridin was mighty angry about that. It would make sense for him to task someone to see that it doesn't happen again (to secure them, in effect--and there are simple enough ways to do this, even with the Chosen Mark--place guards on the Waygates, or Dreadlords to watch over the Shadowspawn and make sure that the Chosen aren't playing fast and free with the Mark). And Demandred as the Shadow's surviving Great Captain is exactly whom Moridin would look to for this.

 

From there, he gathered and organised the Shadowspawn invasion of the blight--his armies gathered for war--and then invaded. Finally, note the way Moridin does not press him for further details, as if he understand precisely what Demandred means, and furthermore Demandred isn't surprised by this, as if he fully expected Moridin to understand--precisely as if they are complicit.

 

This is not to say I don't think Demandred has his fingers in other pots, just that I think this refers to securing the Shadowspawn against misuse by the Forsaken, and preparing the TofM invasion.

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Demandred behind all those mercenary groups? I would guess only some of them since Demandred would need to use Compulsion on a portion of the leaders.

 

 

Demandred being behind those forced conversions at the Black Tower to me seems more likely.

 

 

The only contact we have seen between Demandred and the BT is when he was one of 3 people ordering Kinsman and co. to kill Rand. Taim and Moridin being the other 2.

 

No where else do we have any link of Demandred to the BT.

On the other hand, Moridin...

-Only Forsaken "free" and therefore the only one capable of teaching Taim channeling and some of the things Taim says like "so called Aiel" and such

-Taim adorns the BT in Moridin's colours, black and red

-Moridin's guards at his fortress in the blight just happen to wear black coats...hmmmm

-The other Dreamspike from Moridin's possession is being employed at the BT

 

There's more but that's more than enough and far outweighs any evidence for Demandred.

 

Demandred in Murandy just makes too much sense. I mean hell, it's right in the heart of everything and strategically strong.

 

Also, I'm definitely not convinced that there isn't something more to what was going on to the people of Andor, Tear and Illian under Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammy.

Demandred doing the same to the people of Murandy and having much longer to do it.

It's my vote for Cherkov's gun in fact.

We'll see ;)

Edited by Finnssss
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It will turn out that Bashere is Demandred. Demandred killed and impersonated him. Demandred was ordered by the DO to keep a personal watch over Al'Thor and work from the inside, perhaps out of a sense of cruelty knowing how much Demandred despised Lews Therin.

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It will turn out that Bashere is Demandred. Demandred killed and impersonated him. Demandred was ordered by the DO to keep a personal watch over Al'Thor and work from the inside, perhaps out of a sense of cruelty knowing how much Demandred despised Lews Therin.

Do you think Demandred could hide from Rand Sedai? We have seen Rand detect Dark Friends and see the lines attached to Forsaken, he also recognised Meirin's soul and she isn't even in the same body....

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It will turn out that Bashere is Demandred. Demandred killed and impersonated him. Demandred was ordered by the DO to keep a personal watch over Al'Thor and work from the inside, perhaps out of a sense of cruelty knowing how much Demandred despised Lews Therin.

Do you think Demandred could hide from Rand Sedai? We have seen Rand detect Dark Friends and see the lines attached to Forsaken, he also recognised Meirin's soul and she isn't even in the same body....

 

Cyndane didn't seem to have any issues looking at Rand.

 

But in any case he can't be Bashere. RJ stated we hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego on stage by CoT (or KoD, meh. Either way it can't be Bashere).

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Moridin seems to be in overall command of the Shadow's forces as he did in the War of Power so it is unlikely Demandred was referencing control of the Shadowspawn especially since Moridin's headquarters is in the Blight.

 

As for Demandred influencing the mercenary bands around Caemlyn it is also unlikely especially since we haven't seen that large a gathering of Darkfriends in one place.

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Moridin seems to be in overall command of the Shadow's forces as he did in the War of Power so it is unlikely Demandred was referencing control of the Shadowspawn especially since Moridin's headquarters is in the Blight.

 

 

Ishamael was never cited directly controlling the shadows armies in the War of the Shadow. Furthermore Demandred did directly lead armies--and is indeed the only survivor of the three Forsaken cited to do so, the other two being Be'lal and Sammael--so if we're really applying the logic of 'as it was in the War of Power, so it is now', then it is extremely likely that Moridin chose Demandred for this role.

 

Moridin is Nae'blis, but he isn't afraid to delegate.

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Ishamael was never cited directly controlling the shadows armies in the War of the Shadow. Furthermore Demandred did directly lead armies--and is indeed the only survivor of the three Forsaken cited to do so, the other two being Be'lal and Sammael--so if we're really applying the logic of 'as it was in the War of Power, so it is now', then it is extremely likely that Moridin chose Demandred for this role.

 

Moridin is Nae'blis, but he isn't afraid to delegate.

 

Wasn't it stated though at some point that Moridin was gathering the shadowspawn, or something like that? Perhaps by Graendal.

 

Moridin was pissed about the whole fake Sammael thing, but wasn't that in one of the later books? It doesn't really explain what he's been up to in previous books.

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The only contact we have seen between Demandred and the BT is when he was one of 3 people ordering Kinsman and co. to kill Rand. Taim and Moridin being the other 2.

 

No where else do we have any link of Demandred to the BT.

On the other hand, Moridin...

-Only Forsaken "free" and therefore the only one capable of teaching Taim channeling and some of the things Taim says like "so called Aiel" and such

-Taim adorns the BT in Moridin's colours, black and red

-Moridin's guards at his fortress in the blight just happen to wear black coats...hmmmm

-The other Dreamspike from Moridin's possession is being employed at the BT

 

There's more but that's more than enough and far outweighs any evidence for Demandred.

 

Demandred in Murandy just makes too much sense. I mean hell, it's right in the heart of everything and strategically strong.

 

Also, I'm definitely not convinced that there isn't something more to what was going on to the people of Andor, Tear and Illian under Rahvin, Be'lal and Sammy.

Demandred doing the same to the people of Murandy and having much longer to do it.

It's my vote for Cherkov's gun in fact.

We'll see ;)

 

In aCoS, when Sammael and Graendal meet he says something along the lines of "Semirhage and Demandred may have had a hand in it as well, depite how it ended" (he's talking about Rand's capture in LoC). Well it ended with, or rather was ended by, the Ashaman. To me that suggests that one of those two is involved with the BT, otherwise Sammael would not have added "despite how it ended". Also, Demandred was called to SG shortly after Rand's announcement about male channellers. I imagine the DO may have wanted one of the Forsaken involved with that. There would also be a certain parallel between Demandred and Mesaana as shadows main agents inside each tower, as well as between Osangar and Arangar who stay close to the leaders of the respective towers, Rand and Egwene. And of course there's the ordering around of Kisman. Kisman is actually ordered first by Taim, then by Demandred, and finally by Moridin. That could be a chain of command right there, in the same manner as Moridin, to Mesaana, to Alviarin. Moridin probably pays particular attention to the BT because it has the most potential to the shadow.

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Ishamael was never cited directly controlling the shadows armies in the War of the Shadow. Furthermore Demandred did directly lead armies--and is indeed the only survivor of the three Forsaken cited to do so, the other two being Be'lal and Sammael--so if we're really applying the logic of 'as it was in the War of Power, so it is now', then it is extremely likely that Moridin chose Demandred for this role.

 

Moridin is Nae'blis, but he isn't afraid to delegate.

 

Wasn't it stated though at some point that Moridin was gathering the shadowspawn, or something like that? Perhaps by Graendal.

 

Moridin was pissed about the whole fake Sammael thing, but wasn't that in one of the later books? It doesn't really explain what he's been up to in previous books.

 

Graendal stated that Moghedien and Cyndane were working to organise Darkfriends at Moridin's behest, but nothing about shadowspawn, as the for the rest, it was in Knife of Dreams, however as I stated in my initial post this is merely what I feel Demandred was referring to in his comment about his rule being secure and his armies gathering for war. I've no doubt he's had his fingers in other pots.

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Ishamael was never cited directly controlling the shadows armies in the War of the Shadow. Furthermore Demandred did directly lead armies--and is indeed the only survivor of the three Forsaken cited to do so, the other two being Be'lal and Sammael--so if we're really applying the logic of 'as it was in the War of Power, so it is now', then it is extremely likely that Moridin chose Demandred for this role.

 

Moridin is Nae'blis, but he isn't afraid to delegate.

 

Wasn't it stated though at some point that Moridin was gathering the shadowspawn, or something like that? Perhaps by Graendal.

 

Moridin was pissed about the whole fake Sammael thing, but wasn't that in one of the later books? It doesn't really explain what he's been up to in previous books.

 

Graendal stated that Moghedien and Cyndane were working to organise Darkfriends at Moridin's behest, but nothing about shadowspawn, as the for the rest, it was in Knife of Dreams, however as I stated in my initial post this is merely what I feel Demandred was referring to in his comment about his rule being secure and his armies gathering for war. I've no doubt he's had his fingers in other pots.

 

I found it. It's in the chapter in tGS. Graendal says she knows the plans of all the Chosen except for Demandred and she says that "Moridin was gathering the Great Lord's forces for the Last Battle and his war preparations left him very little time for the south". So he's clearly taking care of the shadows forces in the Blight which definitely means shadowspawn. Also, this scene takes place far into the Blight where the shadowspawn are particularly wild I believe so that certainly fits. That doesn't mean that Demandred is not involved as well, but if he is, then Moridin asking him for a report is rather strange since he should already be perfectly aware of the progress. And if Graendal knows that Moridin is up to this there's no reason for her not to be aware of it if Demandred is involved as well. Also, since Demandred has his fingers in other pots as you said, giving him yet another responsibility would be overburdening him somewhat. Finally would Demandred really refer to it as "his" rule, with regards to shadowspawn? Wouldn't it be Moridin's rule, or the Great Lord's rule? Maybe I'm just being picky but I feel that it would be rather bold, even for Demandred, to refer to it as "his" rule.

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Demanded definitely has had his hand in different plots but I find it hard to believe that he is operating mainly in the Blight or Murandy.

 

In regards to the former, yes Demandred was perhaps the greatest field general the Shadow had but if I'm recalling correctly, Ishamael was the overal strategist and commander as was his counterpart, Lewd Therin. Instead of gathering Shadowspawn, he is controlling a throne which the term "rule seems to indicate" and has consolidated his forces.

 

As for the latter, Murandy seems to fit Demandred especially since King Roedran has magically turned into a shrewd politician and has united Murandy. However, the armies of the nations surrounding Murandy are more than double the size of Murandy's.

 

I'm growing warm to the idea that Demandred is in Shara. There was/is political instability which would allow him to seize power and they have a strong army as well as large amounts of channelers. There is also the matter of the Sharan seen in Tear in KoD who may have been a possible spy as Sharan traders or merchants do not leave their trade cities.

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Demanded definitely has had his hand in different plots but I find it hard to believe that he is operating mainly in the Blight or Murandy.

 

In regards to the former, yes Demandred was perhaps the greatest field general the Shadow had but if I'm recalling correctly, Ishamael was the overal strategist and commander as was his counterpart, Lewd Therin. Instead of gathering Shadowspawn, he is controlling a throne which the term "rule seems to indicate" and has consolidated his forces.

 

As for the latter, Murandy seems to fit Demandred especially since King Roedran has magically turned into a shrewd politician and has united Murandy. However, the armies of the nations surrounding Murandy are more than double the size of Murandy's.

 

I'm growing warm to the idea that Demandred is in Shara. There was/is political instability which would allow him to seize power and they have a strong army as well as large amounts of channelers. There is also the matter of the Sharan seen in Tear in KoD who may have been a possible spy as Sharan traders or merchants do not leave their trade cities.

I always believed he was setting up Shara for war.....

I don't see how using Balefire on the DO's command would fit into the 'building Shadowspawn armies' scenario, which leads me believe he is in Shara, it's not like there are reports in Randland about mass killings etc - depends what he is Balefiring.

 

I'm starting my final read of the series now for AMOL so I'm a bit rusty but didn't we hear that Shara was having problems and then they were sorted out? "My rule is secure" kinda coincides with that doesn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong or if anyone has quotes which say otherwise - it's been nagging me for a while, why have another country on the same continent if it isn't going to play a part?

Edited by Shai-tan
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