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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Most effective Evildoer


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Which evil bad dude (or dudette) do you think has done the most evil for their side, intentionally or otherwise?

 

My money is on the most pathetic member of the Black Ajah, the very first one we meet, Liandrin. While her evilness is very limited in numbers, her one great act seriously messed up the Good Guys long term. When she brought the Supergirls out of the Tower in tGH, she left an Elayne-shaped void for Morgase to find when she visited. Morgase was so pissed that she refused Elaida to come back to Andor with her. Now you see where I'm going with this. No Elaida to manipulate/ conspire/ be a bitch = no Great Schism and when I think of bad times for the Light that is Número Uno in my book.

 

Some might argue for the reputations of the Forsaken but really, how much have they done? Rahvin only really ever removed Morgase, which paved the way for an Aes Sedai and the Dragon's love to claim the throne. Lanfear and Ishamael intimidated and manipulated the Light but never really did anything outright to hurt them. Moghedien... hahahahaha ya right. She gave the Supergirls a hell of a lot of weaves and never really did anything that could make up for it. Aran'gar did mess with Egwene hardcore in Salidar but that was pretty short term. Let's face it: Liandrin wins the most evil award

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I'd probably speculate them in this order:

Demandred - He's THE engine behind the Shadow armies. His female cohorts gave him something to work with, but died.

Lanfear - Might be too much reading behind the lines, but I can't help but think Rand's mentality is part her doing

Rahvin - Morgase-based fallout

Sammael - Aiel-based fallout

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I think you underestimate Ishamael, he was the one who sent Hawkwing's son over the ocean to dominate seanchan which led to Damane which led also to Falme and Ebou Dar and Randlands second largest problem. Ishamael affected things that were centuries in the making. I personally also belive he fabricated the line in the Essiak Cycle that the "Dragon Reborn would kneel to the Crystal Throne".

 

Just my opinions though as this is an opinion thread.

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I think you underestimate Ishamael, he was the one who sent Hawkwing's son over the ocean to dominate seanchan which led to Damane which led also to Falme and Ebou Dar and Randlands second largest problem. Ishamael affected things that were centuries in the making. I personally also belive he fabricated the line in the Essiak Cycle that the "Dragon Reborn would kneel to the Crystal Throne".

 

Just my opinions though as this is an opinion thread.

 

OOooo, fair points, I'd forgotten that and was thinking purely in terms of events that have happened during the course of the books.

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Yea at first I was to who I would have said Fain looks like a good candidate having killed Perrins entire family slicing Rand although that led to the cleansing of saidin still must be painfull. And I also believe he has a connection with Mat through the Dagger if I'm not mistaken both Egwene and Min have seen a shadowy figure or face with a dagger that has blood on it referring to the ruby to me.

 

But then I remembered Ishy doing all that and also he tormented the boy's when they first started they're adventure.

Edited by MatBloodyCauthon
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I think you underestimate Ishamael, he was the one who sent Hawkwing's son over the ocean to dominate seanchan which led to Damane which led also to Falme and Ebou Dar and Randlands second largest problem. Ishamael affected things that were centuries in the making. I personally also belive he fabricated the line in the Essiak Cycle that the "Dragon Reborn would kneel to the Crystal Throne".

 

Just my opinions though as this is an opinion thread.

 

That is a great point. I too was thinking only in terms of the Main Series. And he did bring LTT out of his stupor to show him what he'd done. I think that he I am selling him a bit short. He's definitely the most evil. The amount of evil he's done is much too impressive, so to speak. One knock on Ishy, though, is he never developed the Seanchan culture enough. There aren't nearly as many DFs on their side of the world and he created the circumstances for the good guys to have the Light versions of female Dreadlords (damane) in Tarmon Gai'don. While the Aes Sedai are impressive in terms of overall knowledge of the power, there's no question damane can kill way more efficiently. They're basically Asha'man with boobs.

 

But for an unconventional dark horse candidate, I still think Liandrin could be considered a close second. As annoying as the Seanchan are to Randland culture, when Tarmon Gaidon comes, they will be fighting full force against the Dark. But this split in the Tower caused serious, serious harm to Aes Sedai relationships on both sides of the split, as well as between the two sides. The reconciliation is coming rather last minute for my taste. And that was all set up by Liandrin.

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I say Asmo, he created the rift in teh Aiel, enforcing the division between wetlanders and Aiel, which also nearly killed perrin

 

he was the most destructive forsaken, and if lanfear hadn't interfeered he would have been the most powerful.

 

Also to be fair Demandred cannot be ranked, he has done nothing for certainty, and cannot be judged on future actions

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I say Asmo, he created the rift in teh Aiel, enforcing the division between wetlanders and Aiel, which also nearly killed perrin

 

he was the most destructive forsaken, and if lanfear hadn't interfeered he would have been the most powerful.

 

Also to be fair Demandred cannot be ranked, he has done nothing for certainty, and cannot be judged on future actions

 

I second all of this. Then I add that Asmo was also awesome.

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I'll say Sammael, he nearly kills Rand at Carhienen, defends Illian fairly well from attacks, almost wins at Shadar Logoth, and scatters the Shaido Aiel across Randland resulting in widespread fear of the Dragon due to everyone believing that that all Aiel serve the Dragon.

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I'll say Sammael, he nearly kills Rand at Carhienen, defends Illian fairly well from attacks, almost wins at Shadar Logoth, and scatters the Shaido Aiel across Randland resulting in widespread fear of the Dragon due to everyone believing that that all Aiel serve the Dragon.

 

The problem with this is that those Shaido wouldn't have been around for the scattering if not for Asmodean's simple act of marking Couladin with the double dragons, so this cannot be accounted to Sammael, but to Asmodean.

 

I account Ishy/Moridin #1, and Asmo #2 =)

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I'm definitely going to have to go with Ishamael/Moridin as well. He's done way more evil things than any of the others, thanks to his not being fully trapped in the Bore, and getting loose now and then.

 

Liandrin basically pushed over one domino that had some pretty big long-term effects. But she didn't plan any of that stuff out, it just sort of worked out. Alviarin I think has caused as much trouble, and she has done so more intentionally.

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What about Mesaana? Even if her ending was kind of pathetic, she was the one who behind the breking of the WT. And that has had major consequenses throughout the series. SHe didn't quite bring it to completion, but neither will any of the other bad guys.

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I think it is unfair to say Ishy becuase of all the things he has done over past 3000 years. if we are talking from EotW onwards, it would probably be Asmo. Although I would have to say that I am surprised that no one has mentioned Sehmerige.

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Taim does a fair bit of good for the Shadow which equals bad for the Light, and unlike the other candidates, he intended everything he achieved. Most of the other listings gain their oomph from a cascade effect.

 

Graendal USED to be another one on the 'achieves what she intends' list. She tore Arad Domon apart, killed Asmodean, assisted Sammael spread the Shaido around, survived Rand's blitzkrieg.... only to enact an attack on Perrin that looked like a two year old drew it up in crayon. Dunno whats up with that.

 

Semirhage is pretty bad ass too. Tore apart Seanchan, got a grip on the Daughter of the Nine Moons--even when she got captured, it wasn't due to stupidity--she had no reason to expect ter'angreal like Nynaeve's and Cadsuane's existed, and without them she should have been able to get close enough to lay an inverted weave upon the party leaving them in too much pain to channel whilst they're leashed. It was a solid plan.

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Overall, Ishy takes the price with ease. Started the trolloc wars, started the black ajah, fostered animosity of the Aes Sedai with hawking, sent his armies across the sea (and corrupted their prophecies) and is the nae'blis now.

 

From the start of the books... I'd say Semirhage and Mesaana. Slaughtering half the imperial court at Seandar and throwing the empire into civil war is probably the singlemost destrutive act accomplished in the books, even though it all happens off-screen.

 

Mesaana has done very well besides though. She splintered the tower, engineered what would lead to Dumai's Wells and can take credit for most of the chaos caused the White Tower under Elaida as well.

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Moridin is the most effective. He created the Black Ajah. How does a MAN do that, in a women-only channeler organisation? He screwed Artur Hawkwing over, who was the strongest Ta'veren prior to Rand, and that was because he knew how to combat Ta'veren. Hes the only Forsaken who has saved Rand to further the plans of the Dark. Not a single other Forsaken or known Darkfriend even has a clue what the real goals of the Dark One are.

Edited by Drekka Mort
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Which evil bad dude (or dudette) do you think has done the most evil for their side, intentionally or otherwise?

 

My money is on the most pathetic member of the Black Ajah, the very first one we meet, Liandrin. While her evilness is very limited in numbers, her one great act seriously messed up the Good Guys long term. When she brought the Supergirls out of the Tower in tGH, she left an Elayne-shaped void for Morgase to find when she visited. Morgase was so pissed that she refused Elaida to come back to Andor with her. Now you see where I'm going with this. No Elaida to manipulate/ conspire/ be a bitch = no Great Schism and when I think of bad times for the Light that is Número Uno in my book.

 

Some might argue for the reputations of the Forsaken but really, how much have they done? Rahvin only really ever removed Morgase, which paved the way for an Aes Sedai and the Dragon's love to claim the throne. Lanfear and Ishamael intimidated and manipulated the Light but never really did anything outright to hurt them. Moghedien... hahahahaha ya right. She gave the Supergirls a hell of a lot of weaves and never really did anything that could make up for it. Aran'gar did mess with Egwene hardcore in Salidar but that was pretty short term. Let's face it: Liandrin wins the most evil award

Elaida was a pawn of the Black Ajah and Mesaana, they could've easily organised the Tower coup without her.

 

Plus how much has the Tower split hurt the Light side anyway? Compared to Semirhage's massacre of the Imperial family which started a massive civil war on a whole continent, or all the reaving, enslaving and destruction the Shaido did throughout the Westlands due to Asmodean and Sammael's involvement, it's really minor. And of course Ishamael is on a whole another level.

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In the grand scheme either Ishamael or Aginor. Ishamael did all the stuff that everyone listed but Aginor created most (or all) of the Shadowspawn. That's pretty evil if you ask me. In the books is a little harder to pin down. Liandrin was presumably acting at the behest of a Forsaken, a pawn, so you can't attribute things to her. If you follow the Taim/Moridin thing that logic will apply as well. I think I'd have to stick with Ishy on this one. From the start of the series he has hounded the Two Rivers Crew, causing a lot of turmoil in their minds. Rands devolving could be laid at Ishy's feet easily. While Asmodean did that stuff to Couladin he was working with Lanfear. The idea was probably not all his. The rest of the evil guys pale to Ishamael.

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Moridin, assuming he's behind Taim.

 

I am convinced he is. He has adopted some of the affectations of the forsaken ('the so-called aiel') and was carrying one of the seals to Rand. The only place he could have got either from is Ishamael, as he was the only one awake to tutor him in these affectations and the only forsaken who could conceivably have come into the possession of one of the seals as well (among darkfriends he is obviously the most likely of all to have one).

 

And, I am re-reading Knife of Dreams and have just got to the epilogue where I noticed a detail that seals the deal for me: The floors of Taim's palace are all in red and black, Moridin's colors. In fact, it is remarked on twice. The second time: "The floor tiles were red and black here too. Taim must particularly like those colors."

 

That is exactly the kind of hint Jordan loves to throw in for his readers to make the connections. There is no other reason for him to be writing about floor tiles.

Edited by b9anders
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One of the biggest clues that Moridin is behind Taim is the dreamspike over the Black Tower. Moridin did tell Graendal that he had found 2, but one was being put to good use.

 

The other big reason to pick Moridin is that through all his machinations, he's managed to stay alive, which is more than can be said for most of the forsaken, who are either permanently dead, left dead, or is imprisoned (aka mindtrapped)

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in terms of impact only 2 people stand out

 

Asmodean for creating the shaido mess.

 

Mesaana for splitting the white tower in half.

 

 

I would have included rahvin in that list if mat and aviendha both died from his lighting bolts. But alas no one of worth actually dies in wheel of time. Unless they commit suicide like verin and ingtar.

 

 

 

By the way i laugh at all the people here lauding moridin. This guy got Sammael killed. What a gimp.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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One of the biggest clues that Moridin is behind Taim is the dreamspike over the Black Tower. Moridin did tell Graendal that he had found 2, but one was being put to good use.

 

The other big reason to pick Moridin is that through all his machinations, he's managed to stay alive, which is more than can be said for most of the forsaken, who are either permanently dead, left dead, or is imprisoned (aka mindtrapped)

Except when Rand killed him in each of the first three books... The only Forsaken who hasn't been killed or hit with negative attention from the DO is Demandred and he's been way too much of a non factor to be considered most evil.

 

Why has everyone been saying that Mesaana is behind the Schism? I remember she was there when they took Siuan but I always thought it came about simply from Elaida's power hungriness and Alviarin's manipulation, not Forsaken intervention.

Edited by Bromo Sapien
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