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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Rand's changing Personality


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I never saw Rand in books 6-12 as "dark" I saw him as uncompromisingly realistic and/or fatalistic. If that is dark, well, that is a discussion for another time. In the series, though, that ultra-realistic/fatalistic trait is generally protrayed as evil (Moridin is the example of this; a completely sane, reasonable and intelligent making the choice to which all of his logic forced him to go.) New, post VoG Rand, well, we never saw his PoV in ToM, so I don't think that we can really say _what_ he is like; he certainly acts different and his dialog is a bit, um, over-the-top, but remember the line when he visits the border lander army "If I had come here two weeks ago I would have Balefired all of you - the Guardains only block the One Power" That read to me as a bit of old Rand coming through, though slightly subdued.

I agree; I don't think DarkRand was meant to actually be seen as dark in the evilish sense, at least not until TGS, when he suddenly turned into a...creep. But the other more depressiony stuff like the cold anger and the 'I'd be better off dead' thoughts have actually been developing since TGH, before the taint could even have had a big effect on him. So I don't think RJ meant for people to see Rand as 'dark' in that sense; he just wanted to make it clear, as he said in an interview one time, that Rand was his own worst enemy.

 

And yeah, I enjoyed the Borderlanders scene as well - seemed a bit more like the old Rand. Or at least not as saintly as...other times.

Edited by Randommer
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Early Rand was endearing and funny due to his innocence and inexperience in the world, but I have enjoyed every phase Rand has gone through even if frustrating. I like the new all powerful christlike Rand.

 

And for those who are saying Rand is too goodly and can no longer relate to him, no duh!How could you relate to the DR at anypoint in the series save the early parts in the first book

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I find it a bit humorous how people have a bigger problem with " saintly " Rand, aka, Rand being a decent person, compared to the out of control, dark Rand. Pretty telling to say the least.

 

I found Rand in TGS enjoyable, don't get me wrong. Finally someone stood up to all the Aes Sedai and put most of them in their places. The books were getting tiring with the Aes Sedai walking all over everyone like they owned the world. Anyone who even looked at Rand in that book was cowering or walking away with a tail between their legs. I liked that. Was about time. Only other person to do that was Matt, and only due to the medallion he wears.

 

I really did not blink twice when " good rand " came out within ToM. It was actually refreshing to see the old Rand. I immediately thought of his old self when he cut Nynaeve off and was like, " wool-headed? Stubborn? Nynaeve you really need to find new insults ". That was the old Rand banter that you would come to expect. Most of his actions you could definately see Innocent Rand doing if he had been able to channel his old life.

 

I do not see him at all as Good either. He is simply ... hmmm ... in control. Completely in control, of every situation, of every emotion. When you see the visions from Perrin and Matt he is still huddled deep in thought alone in a room. So there is still plenty of that Darkness residing in him, he just beat it back to the point to where he can think clearly and rationally.

 

Using Balefire is always a last ditch effort. I mean come on, even the Forsaken banned the use of it and will not use it. Atleast .. they SAY they will not use it. Though they use it all the way back in Book 1. They just know the consequences of using it. Why tear the Pattern, the Wheel itself, apart if you want to rule the world? Destroy the Wheel and you rule nothing.

 

When Rand told off Cadsuane and asked her to atleast call him " Rand Sedai " I think that was a perfect description. He is in control like an Aes Sedai. With memories of the Age of Legends, trained in the Age of Legends and well, is the Dragon Reborn.

 

Hey, good luck writing THAT PoV! HA

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I just have to agree with you 100% on that. Rand was enjoyable in TGS and all that... but i didnt like how he resided to using the dark one's power to free himself... even though i dont want Min to die either... Semirage is a bitch... i see why the Dark One himself betrayed her...

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I find it a bit humorous how people have a bigger problem with " saintly " Rand, aka, Rand being a decent person, compared to the out of control, dark Rand.

 

Think this statement is missing the point a bit.

Edited by Suttree
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I have no problem with Zen Rand. He's finally achieved reintegration with Lews Therin. He's still Rand al'Thor but, an improved version supplemented by 400 years of knowledge. Rand finally realizes that it isn't his duty to die at the Last Battle, but rather it is an opportunity and second chance to fix the wrongs he made as Lews Therin 3000 years ago. Plus, "You may call me Rand Sedai" is without a doubt one of the greatest one-liners in WoT history.

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I find it a bit humorous how people have a bigger problem with " saintly " Rand, aka, Rand being a decent person, compared to the out of control, dark Rand. Pretty telling to say the least.

 

Well I dont know about you but I dont take the books seriously enough to automatically hate the bad guys and love the good guys. Moridin is one of my favorite characters. Pretty telling, am I right?

 

I read for entertainment. Not some sort of exercise on morality.

 

Dark Rand is my favorite phase because of how well written it was. Hes a very complex character, yet Brandon roped in plenty of Moridinisms into Rands PoV in TGS, without any of it being unrealistic. To have all the madness, all the rage, all that tension, simply vanish just by a man sitting down and thinking for a bit... dont get me wrong, VoG was bound to have a big effect on him, but now I wish it hadnt happened because of how clean and perfect he now feels. You do not maim and scar and blacken a character as much as Rand had been, and then simply wipe the slate clean. It undermines eleven books worth of development.

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Guest PiotrekS

I find it a bit humorous how people have a bigger problem with " saintly " Rand, aka, Rand being a decent person, compared to the out of control, dark Rand. Pretty telling to say the least.

 

Well I dont know about you but I dont take the books seriously enough to automatically hate the bad guys and love the good guys. Moridin is one of my favorite characters. Pretty telling, am I right?

 

I read for entertainment. Not some sort of exercise on morality.

 

Dark Rand is my favorite phase because of how well written it was. Hes a very complex character, yet Brandon roped in plenty of Moridinisms into Rands PoV in TGS, without any of it being unrealistic. To have all the madness, all the rage, all that tension, simply vanish just by a man sitting down and thinking for a bit... dont get me wrong, VoG was bound to have a big effect on him, but now I wish it hadnt happened because of how clean and perfect he now feels. You do not maim and scar and blacken a character as much as Rand had been, and then simply wipe the slate clean. It undermines eleven books worth of development.

 

I agree with a lot of what Drekka has said here, even though I enjoy new Rand as well. It is always a shame when we loose a character with such perfect lines as "I wouldn't mind you in my head if you weren't so clearly mad" :biggrin:

 

Still, there is Lanfear and this desire he feels for her and the link with Moridin and his weird behaviour towards Egwene when they met and the black thorns in his brain Nynaeve saw. Maybe not everything is so shiny and that's why we had almost no Rand's POVs in ToM...

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Well I sort of agree with Luckers, but perhaps not as exuberantly. Zen Rand makes me uneasy, but I think there is something hiding around the corner.

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Zen Rand scenes in ToM still did give us signs that he is not so "Godlike".

 

There was the " I would have returned those slaps with balefire" saying inside the guardian that (by the way made my heart jump first time) might tell us he let his feelings get the better of him.

 

There is also as stated by Luckers, the Cyndane scene: Which just makes me jump up and down thinking about! I always thought Mierin asked the ail/eilfinns to make Rand love her (again?). She is definately my favourite "Rand storyline detour/problem". We know that he now at least desires her, which tells us that he isnt perfect at the very least.

 

Generally throughout the books I like Rand when he outsmarts ppl, in conversation or action. Also like him while teaching or being honest / open, which I find to be a VERY rare trait throughout the series. Just about every character keep to much of the information to themselves in belief that it will gain them something or In fear of what everyone would start to believe.

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I don't really see the whole "Jesus Rand" thing. I just see him now as the man he would have been had he matured without the whole go-and-save-the-world-by-dying-on-the-evil-mountain-and-don't-forget-to-go-insane-whilst-you're-at-it period in his life. He's simply matured into a man like his father, confident in him self and stubborn as hell. Why wouldn't he waltz into the White Tower? He's a man with a job to do, no point complaining about it, just buckle down and get to work. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. His conversations with Nyn' are simply an extension of his maturing that was evident in his talk with his in the Inn in Baerlon. If he wasn't still an adolescent jumping at shadows no doubt he'd have answered Nyn' point for point when she pulled him up outside of the Mayor's Inn.

 

He's grown up, he's confident, he's willing to have a laugh with you, reassure you and cry with you..

 

He's a man.

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To me, in many ways, the series has read too much like a cookbook and too little like what I was hoping for. Way, way too formulaic.

 

Rand especially, but all the main characters have to go through this formula for traumatic shock. First shock, then disbelief ( that did NOT really happen ), then denial ( I am NOT, x, y, or z ), etc. etc, ad nauseum. ( Luckers is doing the psychology thing and can give you the whole formula if anybody is interested. ) For some reason, Jordan felt he had to go down the entire checklist and hit every box. Ending with, "I will do every stupid thing I can think of and still win, because that's just how fiction works." Boooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggg, and far too predictable.

 

Just once I'd like to see or read something where the main character says, " Damn this sucks, but whining about it won't fix anything, so let's buckle down and get this solved." That eliminates so much of the interminable preamble, where all you can do is tap your feet and wait for the nonsense to end and just get on with what the story is really about.

 

We've had thirteen books of measuring and mixing the ingredients. Can we bake this damn cake already?

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It's way more than sitting down and thinking as has been characterized. He fully integrated the LTT memories. Everything from battles and channeling to memories about LTT's chuldhood, like eating plums.

 

He's gone from being a 20 year old who ignored, rejected, and fought the foreign thoughts to truly accepting that they are his own. He aged 300 years in the span of a few moments. He's going to be pretty damn wise, cultured, and experienced.

 

He isn't going around in rags preaching, so the whole Jesus thing is ridiculous. But do you think a guy who's had relationships with Lanfear and Ilyana, had a family, and likely plenty of other "conquests" is still going to be your lovable farm boy who still complains that Mat and Perrin know about women!

 

Or do you just need to find more ways to trash poor Brandon despite having no idea how Jordan would have wrote it?

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Guest PiotrekS

It's way more than sitting down and thinking as has been characterized. He fully integrated the LTT memories. Everything from battles and channeling to memories about LTT's chuldhood, like eating plums.

 

He's gone from being a 20 year old who ignored, rejected, and fought the foreign thoughts to truly accepting that they are his own. He aged 300 years in the span of a few moments. He's going to be pretty damn wise, cultured, and experienced.

 

It's a good point, and there is no way in hell any writer on Earth is able to write it without some artificiality. We don't know how hundreds of years old, extremely wise, experienced, powerful and gifted people would behave. No wonder that the portrayal of such a person will inevitably lean towards some kind of "enlightened person" stereotype and will resemble to different readers such people like Jesus, Budda, zen masters etc. There is simply no other picture we're familiar with to show a very, very wise and good person. At least he doesn't talk like Yoda! :wink:

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It's way more than sitting down and thinking as has been characterized. He fully integrated the LTT memories. Everything from battles and channeling to memories about LTT's chuldhood, like eating plums.

 

He's gone from being a 20 year old who ignored, rejected, and fought the foreign thoughts to truly accepting that they are his own. He aged 300 years in the span of a few moments. He's going to be pretty damn wise, cultured, and experienced.

 

It's a good point, and there is no way in hell any writer on Earth is able to write it without some artificiality. We don't know how hundreds of years old, extremely wise, experienced, powerful and gifted people would behave. No wonder that the portrayal of such a person will inevitably lean towards some kind of "enlightened person" stereotype and will resemble to different readers such people like Jesus, Budda, zen masters etc. There is simply no other picture we're familiar with to show a very, very wise and good person. At least he doesn't talk like Yoda! :wink:

mhmm make out with me you will

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Guest PiotrekS

It's way more than sitting down and thinking as has been characterized. He fully integrated the LTT memories. Everything from battles and channeling to memories about LTT's chuldhood, like eating plums.

 

He's gone from being a 20 year old who ignored, rejected, and fought the foreign thoughts to truly accepting that they are his own. He aged 300 years in the span of a few moments. He's going to be pretty damn wise, cultured, and experienced.

 

It's a good point, and there is no way in hell any writer on Earth is able to write it without some artificiality. We don't know how hundreds of years old, extremely wise, experienced, powerful and gifted people would behave. No wonder that the portrayal of such a person will inevitably lean towards some kind of "enlightened person" stereotype and will resemble to different readers such people like Jesus, Budda, zen masters etc. There is simply no other picture we're familiar with to show a very, very wise and good person. At least he doesn't talk like Yoda! :wink:

mhmm make out with me you will

 

:biggrin:

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You guys have very good points here. I haven't even thought of some of these, and they all make some sense. Now all we can do is keep talking about the good days when this was all new to us and wait for MoL. Can't wait. I am gonna feel like the times when books like LoC came out xD amazing

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Well, like others have said, Rand had to change, it would have been unrealistic if he hadn't.

 

1) He's told he is the savior or the world, but most likely will have to die to do it.

2) He finds out most people want him dead, despite the fact he has to die to save them.

3) He feels that almost everyone is trying to use him for there own ends (and he isn't far wrong).

4) He tries to hide is true feelings for his home and loved ones from the Shadow, so they won't become targets/hostages (like Fain did to him).

5) He mistakenly believes he has to be hard/unfeeling to do what he has to do. Otherwise, the pain will be too much, or the Shadow will be able to manipulate him.

6) He IS going partially insane, as Nynaeve's delving into his mind shows.

7) He has to reintegrate a whole new person and lifetime, LTT, into his own.

8) He has a huge epiphany/integration in VoG. Buddha Rand is sane, and is Rand/LTT, not Rand al'Thor. The Rand we knew in books 1-3 was Rand in his slef, but really only half his soul. Or less than half. Buddha Rand = the Dragon + some more wisdom learning from the Dragon's mistakes.

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