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Logain bonding Toveine


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In trying to be PG-13 I did not make myself very clear - when Toveine had a very strong physical reaction at the time of the bonding (the vase shattering experience) I wondered if Logain had purposefully stimulated that, using something similar to what Semirhage had done to Cabriana's Warder... or if the big O was a part of the bonding method, or if it was a part of the compulsion method, or if he was just trying to pretend he could kiss THAT well :wink:

You were perfectly clear. Toveine's reaction was not to something Logain set out to do (with the power, at least), it was either a side effect of the bond or Logain was just that good a kisser. It was not compulsion nor any Semirhage-like usage of the power that caused the reaction.

 

Doubt it

"I could have done without the extra bit," he sighed, patting the horse’s neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, "yet I suppose it is necessary. You’re hardly a wife."

There are multiple references throughout the books to what is only appropriate with your wife or betrothed. "You're hardly a wife" points to the sexual response of the bonding. I've read and listened to this scene dozens of times and never taken it as anything but that.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: How is the bond the Asha'man use different than the Warder bond of the Aes Sedai?

RJ: The bond is different because it contains that Extra Bit about obedience. Aes Sedai bound to Asha'man are compelled to comply with the demands of the men. While Aes Sedai can do this to their Warders, it requires work each time.

 

Extra Bit is capitalised when iirc it was a spoken quote. Goes to show how a meaning can be misconstrued when the reporter takes emphasis into their own hands.

All you're saying is that you've misread that scene dozens of times. Why is the extra bit necessary? Well, if it's compulsion, it's necessary because it's needed to control the AS. If it's the "sexual response" then why does Logain think it's necessary to... stimulate his new Warder like that? Any explanation other than compulsion is full of holes and ignores both what RJ said and what was actually written in the books. Oh, and if the bond with the wives is different, then the compulsion is not present in the wife bonds but was an added extra in the AS bond - so you've practically admitted already that the extra bit is compulsion.

 

Agree with Mr Ares, once again. It's more and more unlikely that a thing like this could be the extra bit, though I think RJ was being a tad cheeky here! But no man can kiss THAT well - none in this Age anyway (more's the pity) - sorry RJ, not buying it! There would have to be a whole lot more going on to bring on that kind of a reaction. Which is why I began this whole thread. It stood out for me, since RJ tends to skip around the whole concept of bedding in WOT. He prefers to allude rather than go into even semi- vase-shattering detail. And I just wondered, why on earth would RJ include a climax, on horseback, in the snow, in the middle of a mass Aes-Sedai-napping?

 

Odd!

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"I could have done without the extra bit," he sighed, patting the horse’s neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, "yet I suppose it is necessary. You’re hardly a wife.

 

I interpreted this differently. "...yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife." The extra bit- compulsion- was needed because most men wouldn't want to use Compulsion their wives. Aes Sedai, on the other hand...

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"I could have done without the extra bit," he sighed, patting the horse’s neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, "yet I suppose it is necessary. You’re hardly a wife.

 

I interpreted this differently. "...yet I suppose it is necessary. You're hardly a wife." The extra bit- compulsion- was needed because most men wouldn't want to use Compulsion their wives. Aes Sedai, on the other hand...

 

Per RJ's quote and how it used in the sentence above that is the correct interpretation...

Edited by Suttree
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  • 2 weeks later...

The 'explosive' kiss (to put it nicely) and accompanying bond are a necessary 'extra bit' needed due to how the weave is learned, meaning he doesn't know how to just compel her. Given their wishes I'm sure they'd rather not have had to form a bond with Aes Sedai.

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Agree with Mr Ares, once again. It's more and more unlikely that a thing like this could be the extra bit, though I think RJ was being a tad cheeky here! But no man can kiss THAT well - none in this Age anyway (more's the pity) - sorry RJ, not buying it! There would have to be a whole lot more going on to bring on that kind of a reaction. Which is why I began this whole thread. It stood out for me, since RJ tends to skip around the whole concept of bedding in WOT. He prefers to allude rather than go into even semi- vase-shattering detail. And I just wondered, why on earth would RJ include a climax, on horseback, in the snow, in the middle of a mass Aes-Sedai-napping?

 

Odd!

 

As has been stated, the extra bit is the alteration in the weaving of the "Ashaman-Aes Sedai" bond that demands obedience without work as distinct from the "Aes Sedai-Warder" bond which requires work to compel obedience. The "vase shattering moment" was most likely a reaction to the shock of Logain bonding Toveine which is probably the last thing she expected. I don't seem to remember Toveine doing anything more than hard breathing and a flushed face after the kiss, but that could be from shock.

 

To clarify though, the "compulsion" caused by the bond is distinct from the weave Compulsion itself. Logain can use the bond to "compel" his Aes Sedai without using the forbidden weave. The "Ashaman-Wife" bond probably doesn't have this, as was said earlier the Ashaman have experience in bonds and likely manipulated the bond to provide obedience from the Aes Sedai.

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maybe he gave her control of the bond and she didnt

expect it.thus the flushed face.he seems to have

min like visions doesnt he.she will probaly be the

one to save him from taim/demmie

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maybe he gave her control of the bond and she didnt

expect it.thus the flushed face.he seems to have

min like visions doesnt he.she will probaly be the

one to save him from taim/demmie

 

Logain holds control of the bond after the flushed face incident, and I'm fairly sure that Logain cannot see what Min sees. I think I remember Logain having the Talent to see ta'veren though. Also Taim isnt Demandred.

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I think all bonding is compulsion.

 

Even when one agrees beforehand?

 

Well, to take this analogy further, cause obviously I must, in some jurisdictions I believe the moment someone falls unconscious during erotic asphyxiation it becomes a criminal offense because they "victim" is no longer capable of agreeing, even if they had previously done so. So, maybe! Since once compelled you'd have no way to continue agreeing on your own accord!

 

Feel free to ignore, I just thought the analogy was fun to peruse.

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