Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
maryemi'jigede

Logain bonding Toveine

Recommended Posts

OK, so in TPOD when Logain bonded Toveine, am I the only reader who thought the "extra bit" was bringing Toveine to um, certain, emotional/physical "heights"? Trying to be PG-13 here.

 

If so, this seems suspiciously like what Semirhage did to Cabriana Mecandes' Warder, when she stimulated his pleasure receptors as well as the pain receptors.

 

Could Logain have used a form of Compulsion on Toveine when he set the Bond? If so, do you think this makes him a bad guy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is pretty clear that he used compulsion when he captured them.

 

I don't think that he had to use compulsion to seduce Tovene. I don't think he even to work very hard at the seduction.

 

It looks like Logain has only used the compulsion to keep the AS from escaping, but it is still compulsion in my book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was under the impression that the "Extra Bit" was the kiss. Remember, the weave was puzzled out by asha'man who intended it for their wives/significant others. I'm guessing that's how they first did it, and that's how it was learned. Kind of like the gestures that some Aes Sedai have to do for certain weaves.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, so in TPOD when Logain bonded Toveine, am I the only reader who thought the "extra bit" was bringing Toveine to um, certain, emotional/physical "heights"? Trying to be PG-13 here.

 

If so, this seems suspiciously like what Semirhage did to Cabriana Mecandes' Warder, when she stimulated his pleasure receptors as well as the pain receptors.

 

Could Logain have used a form of Compulsion on Toveine when he set the Bond? If so, do you think this makes him a bad guy?

No, you're not the only reader who made the mistake of thinking that the extra bit was the kiss, or Toveine's reaction (even though Logain saying it was necessary hardly makes sense in that context). The extra bit was the compulsion, as evidenced by Logain saying Toveine was "hardly a wife" (and also a couple of RJ quotes back it up). And no, Logain's use of compulsion doesn't make him a bad guy - he had precious little choice. Execution, compulsion, or expending a lot of resources to keep 50 AS permanently shielded and under lock and key - that's a significant chunk of the BT's strength gone. He came up with the best solution, and hasn't abused his power over his prisoners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using compulsion to keep 50 Aes Sedai (intend on gentling them all) in line seems like the best way to deal with it. If Taim had his way they'd all be dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Using compulsion to keep 50 Aes Sedai (intend on gentling them all) in line seems like the best way to deal with it. If Taim had his way they'd all be dead.

 

Taim is the one who ordered them bonded. Although, yes, if Rand had not made it clear that no Aes Sedai were to be harmed, they probably would be dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The 'extra bit' was the kiss. Apparently that action became a part of the bonding process for Asha'man as it was developed by married couples trying to be closer together. It's the same sort of issue with Aes Sedai who cannot throw fireballs without a throwing gesture. They learned the weave with the physical component so they can't do it without.

 

As to the compulsion the only difference seems that Male -> Female bondings seem to exert much more control (when exercised) than Female -> Male bonds. All Aes Sedai bonds have the ability to compel their Warders to do things, though Aes Sedai (at least most of those we've seen POV's of) seem to see it as a bit of a failure if they need to use it. Back to the great control I assume that the increased control in M->F bonds is just another of the balance things similar to F->M bonds being unable to compel male channelers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are all missing something. Remember the conversation between Egweene and Lelaine about using the Warder Bond to control the Asha'man. Lelaine proposed tweaking the bond so that it gave the Aes Sedai a compulsive control. Egweene's Response was to identify it as compulsion. This was the extra bit that Logain was referring to. The Kiss was needed because that was how the Asha'man who figured out the bond (originally used on wives) developed the weave, and due to the hand-waving examples etc... it was necessary to kiss them. In fact there are comments about how you can tell which Aes Sedai was taught by whom just by observing their hand waving, and this is why the WT avoided wilders because if they learned to much on their own, it became much harder to teach them their way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Ashaman know much more about bonding than AS. They have experimented to find out diff things they can do like "the extra bit" which per RJ is compulsion.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: How is the bond the Asha'man use different than the Warder bond of the Aes Sedai?

RJ: The bond is different because it contains that Extra Bit about obedience. Aes Sedai bound to Asha'man are compelled to comply with the demands of the men. While Aes Sedai can do this to their Warders, it requires work each time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK, so in TPOD when Logain bonded Toveine, am I the only reader who thought the "extra bit" was bringing Toveine to um, certain, emotional/physical "heights"? Trying to be PG-13 here.If so, this seems suspiciously like what Semirhage did to Cabriana Mecandes' Warder, when she stimulated his pleasure receptors as well as the pain receptors.Could Logain have used a form of Compulsion on Toveine when he set the Bond? If so, do you think this makes him a bad guy?

 

The "heights" are just a result of her experiencing his emotions while they're doing the deed. She went in to it planning on just seducing him and was surprised at how much she enjoyed it too. Elayne or any green who sleeps with her warders could've told her all about it. The "extra bit" was compulsion, but it didn't play into that particular experience. She had to convince him, as i recall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually now that I think about it, things might be even more intense for her when the bond is the other way around. AS to warder bond allows warder to feel emotion AND physical sensations (when close). the AS is aware of physical sensations in her warder, but doesn't "feel" them (right?). So assuming the Ashaman bond works the same way, Toveine is physically feeling what both she and Logain are experiencing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like others, the "extra bit" I take to be Compulsion.

 

 

All bonding being Compulsion? I am not so sure.

With Aes Sedia, their warder obeying them requires time. And even after the obedience is gained, the warder can still go against what their Aes Sedia orders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aaah, ok, thanks again Mr Ares.

 

So....was Toveine's reaction a side-effect of the bonding, or part of the Compulsion...or did Logain do something Semirhage-y?

It was either a side effect of the bonding or Logain's just that good a kisser.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aaah, ok, thanks again Mr Ares.

 

So....was Toveine's reaction a side-effect of the bonding, or part of the Compulsion...or did Logain do something Semirhage-y?

It was either a side effect of the bonding or Logain's just that good a kisser.

 

Definitely the latter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aaah, ok, thanks again Mr Ares.

 

So....was Toveine's reaction a side-effect of the bonding, or part of the Compulsion...or did Logain do something Semirhage-y?

It was either a side effect of the bonding or Logain's just that good a kisser.

 

Definitely the latter.

obviously. And as for aes sedai bonds. Its obvious they sometimes use a compulsion like bond. Remember after Alanna bonded Rand another aes sedai asked why she hadn't used the bond that makes males obey?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aaah, ok, thanks again Mr Ares.

 

So....was Toveine's reaction a side-effect of the bonding, or part of the Compulsion...or did Logain do something Semirhage-y?

It was either a side effect of the bonding or Logain's just that good a kisser.

 

Definitely the latter.

obviously. And as for aes sedai bonds. Its obvious they sometimes use a compulsion like bond. Remember after Alanna bonded Rand another aes sedai asked why she hadn't used the bond that makes males obey?

 

Per RJ the bonds are different. The Ashaman can compel with a thought while with AS it takes some work and channeling spirit, for AS it also does not work on a strong channeler.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In trying to be PG-13 I did not make myself very clear - when Toveine had a very strong physical reaction at the time of the bonding (the vase shattering experience) I wondered if Logain had purposefully stimulated that, using something similar to what Semirhage had done to Cabriana's Warder... or if the big O was a part of the bonding method, or if it was a part of the compulsion method, or if he was just trying to pretend he could kiss THAT well :wink:

Edited by Marye mi'Jigede

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think everybody here is wrong about at least one point.

 

The extra bit was the affect the bonding had on Toveine (the climax), the purpose was compulsion (if RJ said that compulsion was the extra bit he misspoke) and Toveine has never gone in to seduce Logain, that was Gabrelle. They learnt how to do it via a kiss, so they must do it like that.

 

The bond with the wives is different, I can't see Sora Grady standing for being under compulsion to Jur.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think everybody here is wrong about at least one point.

 

The extra bit was the affect the bonding had on Toveine (the climax), the purpose was compulsion (if RJ said that compulsion was the extra bit he misspoke) and Toveine has never gone in to seduce Logain, that was Gabrelle. They learnt how to do it via a kiss, so they must do it like that.

 

The bond with the wives is different, I can't see Sora Grady standing for being under compulsion to Jur.

 

No he didn't...

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: How is the bond the Asha'man use different than the Warder bond of the Aes Sedai?

RJ: The bond is different because it contains that Extra Bit about obedience. Aes Sedai bound to Asha'man are compelled to comply with the demands of the men. While Aes Sedai can do this to their Warders, it requires work each time.

 

Very straightforward answer.

 

We also have Logain

 

"I could have done without the extra bit," he sighed, patting the horse’s neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, "yet I suppose it is necessary. You’re hardly a wife.

 

Both quotes make it very clear the extra bit is compulsion. It is diff then the one they hold on their wives.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 28 January 2003 - Edmonton, Alberta

The Asha'man know a lot more about bonding than the Aes Sedai. Some guy figured out how to bond their wives, and then they started concentrating on other things they could do with the bond. The Aes Sedai never experimented, just passed on what they knew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doubt it

"I could have done without the extra bit," he sighed, patting the horse’s neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, "yet I suppose it is necessary. You’re hardly a wife."

There are multiple references throughout the books to what is only appropriate with your wife or betrothed. "You're hardly a wife" points to the sexual response of the bonding. I've read and listened to this scene dozens of times and never taken it as anything but that.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: How is the bond the Asha'man use different than the Warder bond of the Aes Sedai?

RJ: The bond is different because it contains that Extra Bit about obedience. Aes Sedai bound to Asha'man are compelled to comply with the demands of the men. While Aes Sedai can do this to their Warders, it requires work each time.

 

Extra Bit is capitalised when iirc it was a spoken quote. Goes to show how a meaning can be misconstrued when the reporter takes emphasis into their own hands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In trying to be PG-13 I did not make myself very clear - when Toveine had a very strong physical reaction at the time of the bonding (the vase shattering experience) I wondered if Logain had purposefully stimulated that, using something similar to what Semirhage had done to Cabriana's Warder... or if the big O was a part of the bonding method, or if it was a part of the compulsion method, or if he was just trying to pretend he could kiss THAT well :wink:

You were perfectly clear. Toveine's reaction was not to something Logain set out to do (with the power, at least), it was either a side effect of the bond or Logain was just that good a kisser. It was not compulsion nor any Semirhage-like usage of the power that caused the reaction.

 

Doubt it

"I could have done without the extra bit," he sighed, patting the horse’s neck; the animal snorted, but it no longer leaped about, "yet I suppose it is necessary. You’re hardly a wife."

There are multiple references throughout the books to what is only appropriate with your wife or betrothed. "You're hardly a wife" points to the sexual response of the bonding. I've read and listened to this scene dozens of times and never taken it as anything but that.

 

Knife of Dreams book tour 30 October 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Q: How is the bond the Asha'man use different than the Warder bond of the Aes Sedai?

RJ: The bond is different because it contains that Extra Bit about obedience. Aes Sedai bound to Asha'man are compelled to comply with the demands of the men. While Aes Sedai can do this to their Warders, it requires work each time.

 

Extra Bit is capitalised when iirc it was a spoken quote. Goes to show how a meaning can be misconstrued when the reporter takes emphasis into their own hands.

All you're saying is that you've misread that scene dozens of times. Why is the extra bit necessary? Well, if it's compulsion, it's necessary because it's needed to control the AS. If it's the "sexual response" then why does Logain think it's necessary to... stimulate his new Warder like that? Any explanation other than compulsion is full of holes and ignores both what RJ said and what was actually written in the books. Oh, and if the bond with the wives is different, then the compulsion is not present in the wife bonds but was an added extra in the AS bond - so you've practically admitted already that the extra bit is compulsion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...