Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Sign in to follow this  
TamTam Rapley

Egwene, Lying to World Leaders

Recommended Posts

Yes, Ishamael could have - in theory - ended the world with the Choedan Kal. In practice, while he would have loved to do that, the Pattern is still strong enough to prevent that from happening. In the Age of Legends, the access Ter'angreal were kept out of the hands of the Shadow, despite being in Shadow controlled territory, with the Bore unsealed. Lanfear completely missed the female Choedan Kal after Rand and Asmodean's battle. Semirhage for some reason left the ter'angreal behind when breaking into Cadsuane's room. The Pattern will allow Rand to carry the Choedan Kal, and the Dark One can't get Moridin's hands on it. The result is that the Dark One has to work through Rand.

 

I think that Rand's trip to Dragonmount is part of the Pattern's self defense mechanism. Rand came to intellectually and emotionally understand the point of view of Moridin and the Dark One. That in of itself may prove to be important. Rand also destroyed the Choedan Kal, meaning that the Pattern no longer needs to worry about keeping it out of the wrong hands. Rand also gained his mental protection against the Dark One. I don't think that his trip was useless...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

rand breaking down makes no difference to grand scheme of things. This whole VOG thingy is just a timewaster.

 

Give ishy the choedan kal and the world would end just the same.

 

 

And yet the Shadow have spend so much time and resources on Rand specifically! He's the Fisher King, you need him to win, that goes for both the Light and the Shadow. Without him, only a draw can be gained through a "bloody melee"

 

 

 

 

Indeed, she haven't really changed personality wise, which is why Rand has such an easy time manipulating her in the start of ToM.

 

 

The shadow should spend more time in going after objects of power rather than playing mind games. If ishy wielded that Kal on dragonmount, then no amount of fisher kings would have saved the world.

 

Ishy would have ended it right there. And there's nothing Rand could have done about it. Which just illustrates the fact that plot is and was completely broken from the start.

 

 

And yet you have read the books and spend an awful lot of time on these boards :rolleyes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Ishamael could have - in theory - ended the world with the Choedan Kal. In practice, while he would have loved to do that, the Pattern is still strong enough to prevent that from happening. In the Age of Legends, the access Ter'angreal were kept out of the hands of the Shadow, despite being in Shadow controlled territory, with the Bore unsealed. Lanfear completely missed the female Choedan Kal after Rand and Asmodean's battle. Semirhage for some reason left the ter'angreal behind when breaking into Cadsuane's room. The Pattern will allow Rand to carry the Choedan Kal, and the Dark One can't get Moridin's hands on it. The result is that the Dark One has to work through Rand.

 

I think that Rand's trip to Dragonmount is part of the Pattern's self defense mechanism. Rand came to intellectually and emotionally understand the point of view of Moridin and the Dark One. That in of itself may prove to be important. Rand also destroyed the Choedan Kal, meaning that the Pattern no longer needs to worry about keeping it out of the wrong hands. Rand also gained his mental protection against the Dark One. I don't think that his trip was useless...

 

 

i didnt say it was useless. But what i am saying is this whole notion of needing rand to turn baddy so that the world can be ended is just BS. If ishy had the kal, what could the pattern do to stop him? Shoot lighting from the sky? Make him have a heart attack before he blows up existence? When Lanfear and beidomon drilled a hole through the dark one's prison, did the pattern stop them?

 

The reason the kal didnt fall into the wrong hands when they got lost in the war of power could be multitude of reasons. But just because they ended up in rhuidean does not make it any harder for the bad guys to wield it. Personally i think it's just plot armor keeping the keys from falling into the wrong hands. If the forsaken had the keys then we would usher the new dark age of shadowism for all eternity. Then there would be no story.

 

Just like there would be no tarmon gaidon action if the light still possessed the male Kal. It was destroyed because of plot convienience.

 

rand breaking down makes no difference to grand scheme of things. This whole VOG thingy is just a timewaster.

 

Give ishy the choedan kal and the world would end just the same.

 

 

And yet the Shadow have spend so much time and resources on Rand specifically! He's the Fisher King, you need him to win, that goes for both the Light and the Shadow. Without him, only a draw can be gained through a "bloody melee"

 

 

 

 

Indeed, she haven't really changed personality wise, which is why Rand has such an easy time manipulating her in the start of ToM.

 

 

The shadow should spend more time in going after objects of power rather than playing mind games. If ishy wielded that Kal on dragonmount, then no amount of fisher kings would have saved the world.

 

Ishy would have ended it right there. And there's nothing Rand could have done about it. Which just illustrates the fact that plot is and was completely broken from the start.

 

 

And yet you have read the books and spend an awful lot of time on these boards :rolleyes:

 

 

It's called having an opinion. Deal with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And no, maybe Rand's not the world's only hope; that wasn't my point and the whole thing's very unclear. But he is pretty darn vital, and Egwene doesn't know those RJ quotes.

 

She does know that LTT messed up though and would like to help Rand not do the same, or worse.

 

Rand breaking down makes no difference to grand scheme of things. This whole VOG thingy is just a timewaster.

 

Give ishy the choedan kal and the world would end just the same.

And yet the Shadow have spend so much time and resources on Rand specifically! He's the Fisher King, you need him to win, that goes for both the Light and the Shadow. Without him, only a draw can be gained through a "bloody melee"

I don't think the shadow needs him to win at all, where is that ever stated? The DO wanted him, but he seems willing to kill him and do it the "hard way" if he must. Ishy is more than capable to do what must be done if the CoL is out of the way.

 

Also, remember when Moir says she'd kill Rand before she let him threaten the pattern? Funny how right she was about that. Killing Rand would certainly be better than having him screw something up and losing it for everyone everything.

 

I just started a re-read of EotW, and I noticed several similarities with country Egwene and Amrylin Egwene. She has a precedence of dismissing anything Rand says as foolishness. For example, Rand, Perrin, and Mat see a fade and she evedrops on their conversation and she states that they shouldn't make up stories. Rand says that the Trollocs are chasing them and they must leave Edmond's Field, Egwene disagrees because she thinks they just want to leave on an adventure. Rand states that he met the Daughter-heir of Andor and she just laughs in his face. She never assumes that Rand may be telling the truth or may be right. Instead of listening to the evidence, she always outright dismisses it. Every interaction between the two feel quite similiar to Egwene's reaction to Rand in the WT.

 

Indeed, she haven't really changed personality wise, which is why Rand has such an easy time manipulating her in the start of ToM.

I think that's a little premature to say given that we have no idea what Rand's actual goals are. He seems to believe she's been pushed in the right direction, yes.

 

And what "evidence"? There's no "evidence" in any of those things you mention. The so-called "evidence" is that the boys say they did/saw something and Egwene is supposed to accept that as "evidence"? And lets try to keep in mind that Rand refused to talk to Egwene about the seals. She offered, he refused. So of course she'll maintain her current position based on what she knows. And what she knows is this:

 

"Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that?" - Herid Fel, School of Cairhien

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And what "evidence"? There's no "evidence" in any of those things you mention. The so-called "evidence" is that the boys say they did/saw something and Egwene is supposed to accept that as "evidence"? And lets try to keep in mind that Rand refused to talk to Egwene about the seals. She offered, he refused. So of course she'll maintain her current position based on what she knows. And what she knows is this:

 

"Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that?" - Herid Fel, School of Cairhien

 

He didn't refuse, he said they would talk later, she just has to be a little patient. Considering the world is depending on this, I think patience, and caution, are not too much to ask for.

 

What she know is not necessarily all the information though, so waiting until she does have all the information, in order to make a more informed decision, would be a good idea, particularly when there's no risk of anything happening beforehand.

 

Yes, breaking the seals sounds crazy (she states so herself in fact), but when there's so much conflicting evidence about whether or not the man in question, who happens to be the savior of the world, is insane or not, and when no one but her and the Aes Sedai have proven to be immediately hostile to the breaking of the seals, then a little prudence would be wise. It's her own fault if she doesn't think things through, and consider all posibilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha lololololololololololololololol. I love W.O.T discussions, people's opinions amuse me. But on a serious note, this really didn't surprise me. Egwene has shown multiple times that she cares more for the tower than anything else. It's her job as Amyrlin to do so. I don't like it and neither do a lot of people but it's the truth. I believe that when Rand sees the Armies of the world at the meting place, it's not going to change anything. In fact, it'll probably all have been a part of his plan. Hahahahahhahhahaa it should be funny.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha lololololololololololololololol. I love W.O.T discussions, people's opinions amuse me. But on a serious note, this really didn't surprise me. Egwene has shown multiple times that she cares more for the tower than anything else. It's her job as Amyrlin to do so. I don't like it and neither do a lot of people but it's the truth. I believe that when Rand sees the Armies of the world at the meting place, it's not going to change anything. In fact, it'll probably all have been a part of his plan. Hahahahahhahhahaa it should be funny.

Also, I believe that if Rand isn't at the Last Battle, the light side will lose horribly. Think about it without Rand, nobody is there to stop the Dark One from doing what he wants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha lololololololololololololololol. I love W.O.T discussions, people's opinions amuse me. But on a serious note, this really didn't surprise me. Egwene has shown multiple times that she cares more for the tower than anything else. It's her job as Amyrlin to do so. I don't like it and neither do a lot of people but it's the truth. I believe that when Rand sees the Armies of the world at the meting place, it's not going to change anything. In fact, it'll probably all have been a part of his plan. Hahahahahhahhahaa it should be funny.

Also, I believe that if Rand isn't at the Last Battle, the light side will lose horribly. Think about it without Rand, nobody is there to stop the Dark One from doing what he wants.

 

And you could say the same thing regarding Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Min and some other characters....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just started a re-read of EotW, and I noticed several similarities with country Egwene and Amrylin Egwene. She has a precedence of dismissing anything Rand says as foolishness. For example, Rand, Perrin, and Mat see a fade and she evedrops on their conversation and she states that they shouldn't make up stories. Rand says that the Trollocs are chasing them and they must leave Edmond's Field, Egwene disagrees because she thinks they just want to leave on an adventure. Rand states that he met the Daughter-heir of Andor and she just laughs in his face. She never assumes that Rand may be telling the truth or may be right. Instead of listening to the evidence, she always outright dismisses it. Every interaction between the two feel quite similiar to Egwene's reaction to Rand in the WT.

 

Indeed, she haven't really changed personality wise, which is why Rand has such an easy time manipulating her in the start of ToM.

I think that's a little premature to say given that we have no idea what Rand's actual goals are. He seems to believe she's been pushed in the right direction, yes.

 

And what "evidence"? There's no "evidence" in any of those things you mention. The so-called "evidence" is that the boys say they did/saw something and Egwene is supposed to accept that as "evidence"? And lets try to keep in mind that Rand refused to talk to Egwene about the seals. She offered, he refused. So of course she'll maintain her current position based on what she knows. And what she knows is this:

 

"Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that?" - Herid Fel, School of Cairhien

Rand knows what Egwene is like, she has to have control of everything, but Rand will not become a Tar Varlon puppet like Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Guaire Amalasan, Davian, and Logain. He knows that Egwene usually opposes what he says or wants, therefore, why not use what she does so routinely to his own benefit?

 

Rand does provide plenty of descriptive evidence that a country bumpkin couldn't of known had he not seen it with his own eyes. Lan confirms that the boys description matches a fade, Moraine confirms that only Mats, Perrins, and Rand's homes were attacked and that they were the targets. Rand provides knowledge to the group in the Camelyn Inn about Elayne, Gawyn, Galad, Morgase, and the palace that he could of only gained through actually meeting them and by being there. Even Moraine recognizes everything he states and takes it as truth. Yet, Egwene ignores this evidence. AND is witness testimony not considered evidence now? Half of convictions in the Canadian criminal justice system is a result of witness testimony. I would assume that around the same amount would apply to the U.S. as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And what "evidence"? There's no "evidence" in any of those things you mention. The so-called "evidence" is that the boys say they did/saw something and Egwene is supposed to accept that as "evidence"? And lets try to keep in mind that Rand refused to talk to Egwene about the seals. She offered, he refused. So of course she'll maintain her current position based on what she knows. And what she knows is this:

 

"Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that?" - Herid Fel, School of Cairhien

 

He didn't refuse, he said they would talk later, she just has to be a little patient. Considering the world is depending on this, I think patience, and caution, are not too much to ask for.

 

What she know is not necessarily all the information though, so waiting until she does have all the information, in order to make a more informed decision, would be a good idea, particularly when there's no risk of anything happening beforehand.

 

Yes, breaking the seals sounds crazy (she states so herself in fact), but when there's so much conflicting evidence about whether or not the man in question, who happens to be the savior of the world, is insane or not, and when no one but her and the Aes Sedai have proven to be immediately hostile to the breaking of the seals, then a little prudence would be wise. It's her own fault if she doesn't think things through, and consider all posibilities.

 

I really don't get that. If he could break them any day, and you're pretty sure you aren't going to agree no matter what his reasoning, then obviously you'll focus on stopping him before you wait for information. If she stops him, but then he does manage to convince her otherwise, then he'll be allowed to break them! No harm no foul. You have to focus on putting out the fires before you start rebuilding.

 

Pedron Naill says something similar, "Never assume you have all the information, and never wait for all the information before you act". And he was one of the five great captains. And I can already hear it being said, "but Egwene assumes she has all the information!" No, she assumes she's right based on what she has -- there's a difference.

 

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahaha lololololololololololololololol. I love W.O.T discussions, people's opinions amuse me. But on a serious note, this really didn't surprise me. Egwene has shown multiple times that she cares more for the tower than anything else. It's her job as Amyrlin to do so. I don't like it and neither do a lot of people but it's the truth. I believe that when Rand sees the Armies of the world at the meting place, it's not going to change anything. In fact, it'll probably all have been a part of his plan. Hahahahahhahhahaa it should be funny.

Also, I believe that if Rand isn't at the Last Battle, the light side will lose horribly. Think about it without Rand, nobody is there to stop the Dark One from doing what he wants.

 

As far as I know, there would be nothing stopping say... Egwene, or lets say Nynaeve to be less controversial, from simply re-sealing the bore the same way LTT did -- herself with a bunch of other women, taint Saidar this time around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rand knows what Egwene is like, she has to have control of everything, but Rand will not become a Tar Varlon puppet like Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Guaire Amalasan, Davian, and Logain.

 

Not sure why you would think the False Dragons were TV puppets? Especially someone like Guaire who actually laid siege to Tar Valon!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rand knows what Egwene is like, she has to have control of everything, but Rand will not become a Tar Varlon puppet like Raolin Darksbane, Yurian Stonebow, Guaire Amalasan, Davian, and Logain.

 

Not sure why you would think the False Dragons were TV puppets? Especially someone like Guaire who actually laid siege to Tar Valon!

I wasn't really using it as evidence, Rand stated several times in EotW and TGH that he would wouldn't be a puppet like those guys to Moraine and then later Siuan. However, we know the reader know that they weren't puppets, or at least Guaire wasn't. The others as Siuan creates a rumor later about, could of been set up by the Red Ajah, so that they could capture them and gain prestige.

Edited by TamTam Rapley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as I know, there would be nothing stopping say... Egwene, or lets say Nynaeve to be less controversial, from simply re-sealing the bore the same way LTT did -- herself with a bunch of other women, taint Saidar this time around.

 

Egwene has no idea how the Seals were used to imprison the Dark One. The only one who knows that is Rand, and if he dies the knowledge will die with him. All she knows is what they look like and that they are made of Heartstone. Nobody can show her how LTT did it either, because he used Saidin rather than Saidar and a man cannot teach a women how to weave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as I know, there would be nothing stopping say... Egwene, or lets say Nynaeve to be less controversial, from simply re-sealing the bore the same way LTT did -- herself with a bunch of other women, taint Saidar this time around.

 

Egwene has no idea how the Seals were used to imprison the Dark One. The only one who knows that is Rand, and if he dies the knowledge will die with him. All she knows is what they look like and that they are made of Heartstone. Nobody can show her how LTT did it either, because he used Saidin rather than Saidar and a man cannot teach a women how to weave.

 

Pretty sure LTT didn't have a lot of bores and DOs to practice on before he went off and figured it out. Egwene manages to figure out gateways just from Mogh's vague description coupled with previous knowledge. No one ever showed her how before she did it. And Nynaeve is a pretty innovative channeler too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And you could say the same thing regarding Perrin, Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, Min and some other characters....

 

How so? I don't remember it ever being said that Egwene, Nyneave, or Min were vital to the success of the Light. Very helpfull yes, but not absolutely vital.

 

I really don't get that. If he could break them any day, and you're pretty sure you aren't going to agree no matter what his reasoning, then obviously you'll focus on stopping him before you wait for information. If she stops him, but then he does manage to convince her otherwise, then he'll be allowed to break them! No harm no foul. You have to focus on putting out the fires before you start rebuilding.

 

He could break them anyday, but you know he won't since he said so. Egwene has trusted him to come to the FoM, before breaking the seals, so there's no need to rush in making the decision on whether or not to oppose him.

 

No harm no foul? Except for the fact that she's told everyone that the Dragon Reborn had to be stopped, and if she turns out to be wrong that she's iniated hostilities with the Dragon Reborn withoug being sure if it was necessary. It makes her and the White Tower look bad, real bad. She can not be sure there is a fire yet, and if she is, then she hasn't thought things through.

 

Pedron Naill says something similar, "Never assume you have all the information, and never wait for all the information before you act". And he was one of the five great captains. And I can already hear it being said, "but Egwene assumes she has all the information!" No, she assumes she's right based on what she has -- there's a difference.

 

She assumes both. And there is no risk in waiting before acting, in this situation. That's why there's no harm in waiting. If it turns out she needs to stop him, then she can. If it turns out she doesn't need to, then all is fine, because she didn't initiate hostilities. She's keeping all her options open to ensure she won't regret making a wrong decision. Unfortunately she's already made her decision.

 

As far as I know, there would be nothing stopping say... Egwene, or lets say Nynaeve to be less controversial, from simply re-sealing the bore the same way LTT did -- herself with a bunch of other women, taint Saidar this time around.

 

Pretty sure LTT didn't have a lot of bores and DOs to practice on before he went off and figured it out. Egwene manages to figure out gateways just from Mogh's vague description coupled with previous knowledge. No one ever showed her how before she did it. And Nynaeve is a pretty innovative channeler too.

 

Yeah, I don't if Nyneave or Egwene could pull that off. LTT was the greatest channeler in the world. It was said to be extremely difficult and dangerous to do. And besides, LTT would have had to have a certain knowledge of the bore or of the DO's prison to figure out how to do it. This isn't as "simple" as figuring out some weave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't get that. If he could break them any day, and you're pretty sure you aren't going to agree no matter what his reasoning, then obviously you'll focus on stopping him before you wait for information. If she stops him, but then he does manage to convince her otherwise, then he'll be allowed to break them! No harm no foul. You have to focus on putting out the fires before you start rebuilding.

 

He could break them anyday, but you know he won't since he said so. Egwene has trusted him to come to the FoM, before breaking the seals, so there's no need to rush in making the decision on whether or not to oppose him.

 

No harm no foul? Except for the fact that she's told everyone that the Dragon Reborn had to be stopped, and if she turns out to be wrong that she's iniated hostilities with the Dragon Reborn withoug being sure if it was necessary. It makes her and the White Tower look bad, real bad. She can not be sure there is a fire yet, and if she is, then she hasn't thought things through.

 

But you want her to do nothing all month, show up to FOM where he could bring the seals and put them on the table, hold up a hammer over his head and say, "last chance to convince me not to do this." And she would be like, "Gee, wish I had a bunch of leaders here who agreed with me so I could show some worldly solidarity, I probably shouldn't have sat on my ass all month."

 

(apply this to the other response too cause Luckers dislikes it when we spiral out of control)

 

As far as I know, there would be nothing stopping say... Egwene, or lets say Nynaeve to be less controversial, from simply re-sealing the bore the same way LTT did -- herself with a bunch of other women, taint Saidar this time around.

Pretty sure LTT didn't have a lot of bores and DOs to practice on before he went off and figured it out. Egwene manages to figure out gateways just from Mogh's vague description coupled with previous knowledge. No one ever showed her how before she did it. And Nynaeve is a pretty innovative channeler too.

 

Yeah, I [doubt] if Nyneave or Egwene could pull that off. LTT was the greatest channeler in the world. It was said to be extremely difficult and dangerous to do. And besides, LTT would have had to have a certain knowledge of the bore or of the DO's prison to figure out how to do it. This isn't as "simple" as figuring out some weave.

 

Who's to say they have to do it the same way? They're women, so likely it would be done differently. And the "Greatest channeler in the world" couldn't heal stilling, which Nyneave figured out. They can link, the men couldn't, so bonus there too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But you want her to do nothing all month, show up to FOM where he could bring the seals and put them on the table, hold up a hammer over his head and say, "last chance to convince me not to do this." And she would be like, "Gee, wish I had a bunch of leaders here who agreed with me so I could show some worldly solidarity, I probably shouldn't have sat on my ass all month."

 

Of course not. She should still gather all the leaders and armies in the world in case he does need to be stopped. That wouldn't be a problem, afterall they'd still want to be there for such an important decision. If Rand needs to be stopped, they'll be there. If he doesn't need to be stopped then all the armies are gathered and ready to go.

 

If Rand shows up and says that, then she should ask him to convince her that needs to be done in the first place. It's for Rand to explain why it should be done, not for Egwene to explain why it shouldn't be done. If he refuses to explain, then stop him. If his explanation is not satisfactory, then stop him. If the explanation is satisfactory, then all's good, break the seals.

 

That said the point of this meeting is something else for Rand, so I doubt he'll show up and break the seals just like that. Afterall once they're broken, there's no going back.

 

Who's to say they have to do it the same way? They're women, so likely it would be done differently. And the "Greatest channeler in the world" couldn't heal stilling, which Nyneave figured out. They can link, the men couldn't, so bonus there too.

 

Well, when I said greatest channeller in the world, I didn't mean the best at everything. But still he was incredibly experienced and knowledgable, and his incredible skill made up for the lack of women at the sealing.

 

Nyneave knows nothing about the nature of the bore or the Dark One's prison, so I don't see how she could figure out. And even if she could, I don't know if she is skilled enough to pull it off.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what's funny in all this. All these leader gathering and opposition by the Aes sedai would have never materialised if rand did the simple thing.

 

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defear shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

 

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things. Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know what's funny in all this. All these leader gathering and opposition by the Aes sedai would have never materialised if rand did the simple thing.

 

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defear shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

 

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things. Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

Yeah, it is odd that Rand provoked Egwene, and so far there doesn't seem to be a very good reason for it, which means we'll just have to wait until aMoL and see if he has one (which he'd better). He meant for Egwene to react as she did. That means she was predictable though, it doesn't mean she should have reacted that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just started a re-read of EotW, and I noticed several similarities with country Egwene and Amrylin Egwene. She has a precedence of dismissing anything Rand says as foolishness. For example, Rand, Perrin, and Mat see a fade and she evedrops on their conversation and she states that they shouldn't make up stories. Rand says that the Trollocs are chasing them and they must leave Edmond's Field, Egwene disagrees because she thinks they just want to leave on an adventure. Rand states that he met the Daughter-heir of Andor and she just laughs in his face. She never assumes that Rand may be telling the truth or may be right. Instead of listening to the evidence, she always outright dismisses it. Every interaction between the two feel quite similiar to Egwene's reaction to Rand in the WT.

 

Interesting, I wonder if she might be part of the safety mechanism that pattern put in place if Rand chooses the wrong side?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But you want her to do nothing all month, show up to FOM where he could bring the seals and put them on the table, hold up a hammer over his head and say, "last chance to convince me not to do this." And she would be like, "Gee, wish I had a bunch of leaders here who agreed with me so I could show some worldly solidarity, I probably shouldn't have sat on my ass all month."

 

Of course not. She should still gather all the leaders and armies in the world in case he does need to be stopped. That wouldn't be a problem, afterall they'd still want to be there for such an important decision. If Rand needs to be stopped, they'll be there. If he doesn't need to be stopped then all the armies are gathered and ready to go.

 

If Rand shows up and says that, then she should ask him to convince her that needs to be done in the first place. It's for Rand to explain why it should be done, not for Egwene to explain why it shouldn't be done. If he refuses to explain, then stop him. If his explanation is not satisfactory, then stop him. If the explanation is satisfactory, then all's good, break the seals.

 

That said the point of this meeting is something else for Rand, so I doubt he'll show up and break the seals just like that. Afterall once they're broken, there's no going back.

 

Who's to say they have to do it the same way? They're women, so likely it would be done differently. And the "Greatest channeler in the world" couldn't heal stilling, which Nyneave figured out. They can link, the men couldn't, so bonus there too.

 

Well, when I said greatest channeller in the world, I didn't mean the best at everything. But still he was incredibly experienced and knowledgable, and his incredible skill made up for the lack of women at the sealing.

 

Nyneave knows nothing about the nature of the bore or the Dark One's prison, so I don't see how she could figure out. And even if she could, I don't know if she is skilled enough to pull it off.

 

Not just LTT..I believe most AoL leaders knew a lot more about the bore than the current channelers for the simple reason that the bore was drilled in their lifetime. They know what was done so they have some idea how to close it.

 

Egwene knows squat about the bore..the only people who knows are Rand and the Forsaken and I am pretty sure the person who knows the most about it, Lanfear will help him seal it back up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest PiotrekS

You know what's funny in all this. All these leader gathering and opposition by the Aes sedai would have never materialised if rand did the simple thing.

 

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defear shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

 

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things. Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

I absolutely agree with Elan (in Egwene thread!) :ohmy:

 

I fear all this weird behaviour on Rand's part might have something to do with the link with Moridin and I don't like this line of thinking at all...Hopefully all the nonsense about "part of Rand wants me to stop him" will not be a crucial thing in AMoL.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Who's to say they have to do it the same way? They're women, so likely it would be done differently. And the "Greatest channeler in the world" couldn't heal stilling, which Nyneave figured out. They can link, the men couldn't, so bonus there too.

 

Well, when I said greatest channeller in the world, I didn't mean the best at everything. But still he was incredibly experienced and knowledgable, and his incredible skill made up for the lack of women at the sealing.

 

Nyneave knows nothing about the nature of the bore or the Dark One's prison, so I don't see how she could figure out. And even if she could, I don't know if she is skilled enough to pull it off.

 

Not just LTT..I believe most AoL leaders knew a lot more about the bore than the current channelers for the simple reason that the bore was drilled in their lifetime. They know what was done so they have some idea how to close it.

 

Egwene knows squat about the bore..the only people who knows are Rand and the Forsaken and I am pretty sure the person who knows the most about it, Lanfear will help him seal it back up.

 

Well, just because there are people who know how the brain works, doesn't make me comfortable enough to do brain surgery or even think that I might be able to pull it off. But that said, it is true that AoL people might have a better general understanding of the "universe" and the "power(s)" which would help them fumble through something like making a patch on the pattern.

 

However, as I pointed out, our 3rd age heroes, in some areas, have been even better at figuring things out than the 2nd age-ers were. So there's no reason to think they couldn't figure it out if they actually tried to work it out. Nyn and stilling, and Egwene works out travelling with just a vague description from Mogh. No one had to show her how to do it.

 

So no, obviously they couldn't just do it at this very moment. But neither could LTT before he left to figure out how. He may have had a vague idea based on a general understanding, but that does not mean Egwene or Nynaeve couldn't figure it out as they have various other weaves and TAR tricks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Egwene knows squat about the bore..the only people who knows are Rand and the Forsaken and I am pretty sure the person who knows the most about it, Lanfear will help him seal it back up.

 

Well we better all pray that Min knows something about it because that's who Rand is relying on.

 

You know what's funny in all this. All these leader gathering and opposition by the Aes sedai would have never materialised if rand did the simple thing.

 

Rand: Egwene, i am going to break the seals

Egwene: what no rand. you cant

Rand: look the seals are crumbling and if we are going to defear shaitan then we need to remake the prison again.

egwene: so?

Rand: so, in order to recreate the original creation, we need to get rid of the patch i laid 3,000 years ago and rebuild it from scratch.

Egwene: sounds good to me but we need to plan. What happens after you break the seals. what then?

Rand: *proceeds to tell his plan*

Egwene: I see.

 

 

 

That's how a mature battle leader does his things. Instead we get

 

Rand: Egwene i am going to break the seals

Egwene what no rand. you cant.

Rand: It's a risk we must all take. i have to do it. clear the rubble

Egwene: its dangerous action. we must plan.

Rand: lol alright you go ahead and plan. taa daa.

Egwene: what the...

 

I absolutely agree with Elan (in Egwene thread!) :ohmy:

 

Just spit my coffee all over my computer, it's funny that Elan hit the nail on the head with this one.

Edited by Suttree

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...